Comparing Playoff Supporting Casts To Our Own

[Bricklayer]

Mac, with how many NBA teams do you think Tyreke would start as a pg? As a 2-guard?

As usual you are apparently completely blind to the abilities and talent of one of our own. Do you watch the rest of the league? Its a serious question. Sometimes when people get these wildly out of whack positons going its often as simple as not having the tiem to watch the ineptitude and struggles of other guys around the league.

To partially answer your question there are numerous PLAYOFF teams where Reke woould be one of the starters. He could have either spot in Portland, Afllalo's spot in Denver, Billups spot in Clipperland, Fisher's spot in Lakerland, Dudley's spot in Phoenix, either spot in Utah, West/Carter's spot in Dallas, either spot in Orlando, the SG spot in Chicago. The SG spot in Minny. Either spot in Charlotte and Detroit. DeRozan's spot in Torotno, and probalby Calderon's for that matter. And just etc. This is a huge talent we have here, youthful flaws and all. Slip him onto a good team and we, meaning those of us who are remotely clear eyed about this, are gnashing our teeth about how come we never get players like that.

 

[rhythmless]

Where is Tyreke in shooting guards? Top 10, for sure. Don't think anyone can take him out of there.

 

[Kingster]

As usual you are apparently completely blind to the abilities and talent of one of our own. Do you watch the rest of the league? Its a serious question. Sometimes when people get these wildly out of whack positons going its often as simple as not having the tiem to watch the ineptitude and struggles of other guys around the league.

To partially answer your question there are numerous PLAYOFF teams where Reke woould be one of the starters. He could have either spot in Portland, Afllalo's spot in Denver, Billups spot in Clipperland, Fisher's spot in Lakerland, Dudley's spot in Phoenix, either spot in Utah, West/Carter's spot in Dallas, either spot in Orlando, the SG spot in Chicago. The SG spot in Minny. Either spot in Charlotte and Detroit. DeRozan's spot in Torotno, and probalby Calderon's for that matter. And just etc. This is a huge talent we have here, youthful flaws and all. Slip him onto a good team and we, meaning those of us who are remotely clear eyed about this, are gnashing our teeth about how come we never get players like that.

You are soooooooooooooooooooo sensitive to an open-ended question. The knee-jerk that comes from you is like a kick from the 50-yard line. The defensiveness has no end. Stop a minute. Just stop you're reactionary self for a moment. They were two simple questions. No more, no less.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

You are soooooooooooooooooooo sensitive to an open-ended question. The knee-jerk that comes from you is like a kick from the 50-yard line. The defensiveness has no end. Stop a minute. Just stop you're reactionary self for a moment. They were two simple questions. No more, no less.

Would start at either PG/SG, take your pick:
Detroit (Knight/Stuckey)
New Orleans (Jack/Belinelli)
Portland (Felton/Mathews)

Would start at PG, but could start at SG:
Atlanta (Teague/Johnson)
Indiana (Collison/George)

Would start at SG, but could start at PG:
Charlotte (Walker/R.Williams)
Cleveland (Irving/Gibson)
Dallas (Kidd/Carter)
Denver (Lawson/Afflalo)
Houston (Lowry/Martin)
Memphis (Conley/T.Allen)
Milwaukee (Jennings/Livingston)
Minnesota (Rubio/Ridnour)
New York (Lin/Fields)
Orlando (Nelson/Richardson)
Philadelphia (Holiday/Meeks)
Toronto (Calderon/Bayless)
Utah (Harris/Bell)
Washington (Wall/N.Young)

Would start at PG only:
L.A. Lakers (Fisher/Bryant)
Miami (Chalmers/Wade)

Would start at SG only:
Chicago (Rose/R.Brewer)
L.A. Clippers (Paul/Foye)
New Jersey (D.Williams/Morrow)
OKC (Westbrook/Cook)
Phoenix (Nash/Dudley)
San Antonio (Parker/D.Green)

Might come off the bench:
Boston (Rondo/R.Allen) - but I still think he starts in front of Allen
Golden State (Curry/Ellis) - who comes off the bench?

And obviously he starts on the Kings. So that's 2 out of 30 teams where, if inserted onto their roster without any subtractions, Tyreke might not start. And even then, in both cases he's got a good chance of starting. Looking at that list, there are a total of eleven guards in the league who make a strong case to start in front of Evans (Bryant, Wade, Rose, Paul, D.Williams, Westbrook, Nash, Parker, Rondo, Curry, R.Allen, Ellis), and I'm not sure the last three on that list actually do.

 

[Kingster]

Would start at either PG/SG, take your pick:
Detroit (Knight/Stuckey)
New Orleans (Jack/Belinelli)
Portland (Felton/Mathews)

Would start at PG, but could start at SG:
Atlanta (Teague/Johnson)
Indiana (Collison/George)

Would start at SG, but could start at PG:
Charlotte (Walker/R.Williams)
Cleveland (Irving/Gibson)
Dallas (Kidd/Carter)
Denver (Lawson/Afflalo)
Houston (Lowry/Martin)
Memphis (Conley/T.Allen)
Milwaukee (Jennings/Livingston)
Minnesota (Rubio/Ridnour)
New York (Lin/Fields)
Orlando (Nelson/Richardson)
Philadelphia (Holiday/Meeks)
Toronto (Calderon/Bayless)
Utah (Harris/Bell)
Washington (Wall/N.Young)

Would start at PG only:
L.A. Lakers (Fisher/Bryant)
Miami (Chalmers/Wade)

Would start at SG only:
Chicago (Rose/R.Brewer)
L.A. Clippers (Paul/Foye)
New Jersey (D.Williams/Morrow)
OKC (Westbrook/Cook)
Phoenix (Nash/Dudley)
San Antonio (Parker/D.Green)

Might come off the bench:
Boston (Rondo/R.Allen) - but I still think he starts in front of Allen
Golden State (Curry/Ellis) - who comes off the bench?

And obviously he starts on the Kings. So that's 2 out of 30 teams where, if inserted onto their roster without any subtractions, Tyreke might not start. And even then, in both cases he's got a good chance of starting. Looking at that list, there are a total of eleven guards in the league who make a strong case to start in front of Evans (Bryant, Wade, Rose, Paul, D.Williams, Westbrook, Nash, Parker, Rondo, Curry, R.Allen, Ellis), and I'm not sure the last three on that list actually do.

Thanks for your well-considered response. We disagree on a lot of the names. For example, I don't see Tyreke starting in front of Ray Allen, or Stuckey, for tha matter. But I appreciate the analysis.

 

[cuad]

Tyreke can't start at PG for anybody.

 

[Bricklayer]

Tyreke can't start at PG for anybody.

Stop.

The degree of hyperbole on this board has reached toxic levels.

 

[rhythmless]

Would start at either PG/SG, take your pick:
Detroit (Knight/Stuckey)
New Orleans (Jack/Belinelli)
Portland (Felton/Mathews)

Would start at PG, but could start at SG:
Atlanta (Teague/Johnson)
Indiana (Collison/George)

Would start at SG, but could start at PG:
Charlotte (Walker/R.Williams)
Cleveland (Irving/Gibson)
Dallas (Kidd/Carter)
Denver (Lawson/Afflalo)
Houston (Lowry/Martin)
Memphis (Conley/T.Allen)
Milwaukee (Jennings/Livingston)
Minnesota (Rubio/Ridnour)
New York (Lin/Fields)
Orlando (Nelson/Richardson)
Philadelphia (Holiday/Meeks)
Toronto (Calderon/Bayless)
Utah (Harris/Bell)
Washington (Wall/N.Young)

Would start at PG only:
L.A. Lakers (Fisher/Bryant)
Miami (Chalmers/Wade)

Would start at SG only:
Chicago (Rose/R.Brewer)
L.A. Clippers (Paul/Foye)
New Jersey (D.Williams/Morrow)
OKC (Westbrook/Cook)
Phoenix (Nash/Dudley)
San Antonio (Parker/D.Green)

Might come off the bench:
Boston (Rondo/R.Allen) - but I still think he starts in front of Allen
Golden State (Curry/Ellis) - who comes off the bench?

And obviously he starts on the Kings. So that's 2 out of 30 teams where, if inserted onto their roster without any subtractions, Tyreke might not start. And even then, in both cases he's got a good chance of starting. Looking at that list, there are a total of eleven guards in the league who make a strong case to start in front of Evans (Bryant, Wade, Rose, Paul, D.Williams, Westbrook, Nash, Parker, Rondo, Curry, R.Allen, Ellis), and I'm not sure the last three on that list actually do.

You're completely discounting fit though. It's completely beyond teh scope of reasoning to start both Rondo and Tyreke. The only reason Rondo can even be what he is is because of an Allen and Pierce. A rondo/reke backcourt would mean that the opponent basically packs in to the paint, or crowds the elbows for Pierce.

We've covered at length the dynamics of the backcourt pairing, in that you do not need, nor is it optimal, to have two guards that are both all star talents. Brick, in particular, has always espoused the merits of a roleplayer next to a star guard, which I agree with. This analysis, while I appreciate, doesn't account for the question "would hte team be better?" In the Rondo and Reke/Allen, it's pretty clear that Reke would be a supersub.

If you guys want to rate him vs another guard, go ahead. If you want to compare him to PGs, go ahead. If you want to compare him to SGs, go ahead, but to compare him at the same time to either is just too hairy for the aforementioned reasons.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

You're completely discounting fit though. It's completely beyond teh scope of reasoning to start both Rondo and Tyreke. The only reason Rondo can even be what he is is because of an Allen and Pierce. A rondo/reke backcourt would mean that the opponent basically packs in to the paint, or crowds the elbows for Pierce.

I did put the Celtics under "might start".

We've covered at length the dynamics of the backcourt pairing, in that you do not need, nor is it optimal, to have two guards that are both all star talents. Brick, in particular, has always espoused the merits of a roleplayer next to a star guard, which I agree with. This analysis, while I appreciate, doesn't account for the question "would hte team be better?" In the Rondo and Reke/Allen, it's pretty clear that Reke would be a supersub.

Well, I know Brick's argument and I know it well - that 20/20 backcourts don't win championships. But the fact is that 20/20 backcourts happen very rarely, and you have to account for that. If it were the case that you could find 100+ instances of 20/20 backcourts and none of them had won championshps, then you'd have something. But I went through this last year or so, and found that such a pairing had happened less than 20 times in NBA history and that their success (or lack of it) fell well within chance. Maybe I can find that again. But needless to say I don't find his argument persuasive. Note also that this is a complete side point, relative to what my original point was about.

If you guys want to rate him vs another guard, go ahead. If you want to compare him to PGs, go ahead. If you want to compare him to SGs, go ahead, but to compare him at the same time to either is just too hairy for the aforementioned reasons.

The poster I was responding to wanted a list of teams where Tyreke would start (PG or SG), if he were thrown on that team. I simply made a list of where I thought he would start, as asked. I don't see the problem.

 

[spudfan]

Not sure if this has been posted here, but I just read the article this morning and it reminded me of this thread. The article is "The secret to Jeremy Lin's success" by Hollinger (it's an insider article). It talks about how New York's team was so bad at the point guard spot, the worst in the league, by one of Hollinger's statistics, that Lin was able to come in and completely turn around the team since the jump was so big from bad to good.

Here is how he calculated positional ranking for each team:
To calculate BAD, I started with every player with a PER below 12. I subtracted his PER from 12, and multiplied by his minutes played. For example, a player with a PER of 10 and 200 minutes played would add 400 BAD points for his team.

Well what do you know, when it comes to the SF position the Kings are the worst in the league.
Kings Small forward Salmons, Garcia, Outlaw 5,663

Even if you are not a fan of his statistics, it kind of adds to the point of how poor our supporting cast is in comparison to the league.

 

[steelevt]

Well, I know Brick's argument and I know it well - that 20/20 backcourts don't win championships. But the fact is that 20/20 backcourts happen very rarely, and you have to account for that. If it were the case that you could find 100+ instances of 20/20 backcourts and none of them had won championshps, then you'd have something. But I went through this last year or so, and found that such a pairing had happened less than 20 times in NBA history and that their success (or lack of it) fell well within chance. Maybe I can find that again. But needless to say I don't find his argument persuasive. Note also that this is a complete side point, relative to what my original point was about.

i agree with this statement also. just because it hasnt been done doesnt mean you dont go after talent if it is there. it's like saying there hasnt been a 20/20 ppg pg/sf combo to win a championship in the last 10 years, dont go after durant or lebron if we had the chance. that is why the thing to do now is to have "big 3s" because if 1 or even 2 players are having an off day, you still have someone to carry the team.

 

[Bricklayer]

i agree with this statement also. just because it hasnt been done doesnt mean you dont go after talent if it is there. it's like saying there hasnt been a 20/20 ppg pg/sf combo to win a championship in the last 10 years, dont go after durant or lebron if we had the chance. that is why the thing to do now is to have "big 3s" because if 1 or even 2 players are having an off day, you still have someone to carry the team.

It creates dysfunction is why you don't do it. Like what happened to New York when they blew up Amare's team to bring in Melo. Only so much room for certain type of players, no matter how talented.

Now the key thing is its not about not having guys who COULD score 20, its about having two guys ACTUALLY score 20 that does not work. And the key there, the problem with a guy like Kevin, is that he was compeltely worthless UNLESS he was scoring 20. Tyreke is not that way. He's one of the best guards in the league at all the thing sother than scoring, so he can "only" score 18 and still make a major impact on the game in the way that a Kevin, or on our team probably a Thronton or Jimmer, can't. Point being you are not going to have your three smalls all actually score 20. And if you did, it would be a mess. You can get some major talents ther,e but it has to be with the understanding that one or more are going to have to sacrifice their offense. Adn the only way that owrks is if you have acquired guys with enough skills other than scoring to still be able to contribute on a 15pt night.