Collison + #8 for #5?

For instance, what if Dunn turned out to be a Lowry/Wall caliber player or what if he turned out to be G. Hill/Collison but one who's prime coincides with your core? That's the important part here.

The eternal "what if" that blinds people about young players much like it blinds people buying a lottery ticket.

What if Dunn is Jimmer? That's a what if too.

What if they don't believe in him and like a guy at #8? Maybe he's their Mudiay, and they have a WCS they like better for a few picks later.


I'm not saying Minny would have an interest in Collison or not, although a Collison/Rubio pairing makes more tactical sense than Rondo/Collison because you can play them together while Rubio guards the SG. But I am saying that unless Dunn turns out to be an outright star, he's probably not going to be the guy either. You can't afford to keep a whole bunch of kids all coming into their contracts at the same time, and one thing a young core always needs is experienced vets to help show them the ropes. Hopefully not the decrepit corpses the Wolves used last year.

Besidea which, KAT/Wiggins/Thibs, having turned the corner as a winning team? They'd be able to sign non-star guys who want to be a part of it all day long. But they have to turn that corner first.
 
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The eternal "what if" that blinds people about young players much like it blinds people buying a lottery ticket.

What if Dunn is Jimmer? That's a what if too.

What if they don't believe in him and like a guy at #8? Maybe he's their Mudiay, and they have a WCS they like better for a few picks later.


I'm not saying Minny would have an interest in Collison or not, although a Collison/Rubio pairing makes more tactical sense than Rondo/Collison because you can play them together while Rubio guards the SG. But I am saying that unless Dunn turns out to be an outright star, he's probably not going to be the guy either. You can't afford to keep a whole bunch of kids all coming into their contracts at the same time, and one thing a young core always needs is experienced vets to help show them the ropes. Hopefully not the decrepit corpses the Wolves used last year.

Besidea which, KAT/Wiggins/Thibs, having turned the corner as a winning team? They'd be able to sign non-star guys who want to be a part of it all day long. But they have to turn that corner first.

Did I ever say #5 will amount to anything? No, I did not, but it's all about risk/reward. In these scenarios, you always seem to focus on the risk and not the reward. #5 is an asset and has a chance at turning into a star, a starter, sixth man, roleplayer, bench warmer, or out of the NBA. There doesn't have to be an extreme.

Are 4 core youngsters "a bunch of kids"? These would be the guys you'd most likely be paying big money to and you most certainly can afford.

As far as turning that corner, why take it so soon when you have the shot at adding another player that can be part of the core? I just don't understand the rationale at being willing to give up a solid chance at a significant player. It's like saying we draft Westbrook & Durant so let's give up the opportunity to draft Harden for veteran roleplayers. That is a mistake. If you have another shot at a player like that, YOU TAKE IT! You do not sell that opportunity for roleplayers. This is a stars league. Trade other, less vital assets for these types of players or pick them up in FA. I can't believe I'm having to argue potential star vs. veteran roleplayer when the core players are 21 & 20 years old. I thought this would be general knowledge by now. The Wolves aren't in our situation where they have an established 26 year old star who can bolt if the team isn't improved quickly. They have the luxury of building slower thus giving them more chances to acquire star talent.

As for your other point, yeah it's possible that they might like someone better who is projected further back (thinking they can get a steal). At that point, yeah it makes sense to trade back, but an expiring Collison is still not the return you want for dropping from a top 5 pick to top 8. You might as well go after a player that will be under contract for longer.
 
If the Twolves are not interested in Dunn but we can't get a deal with them, we could also try to talk to the Pellies as they have the 6th pick and they already have Holiday and Tyreke at PG. They probably would try to get us to take back Asik so they can get out of his contract (3 years at 11 million).
For example they could propose:
Asik + 6th for Koufos + 8th.
However I dont think Vlade would do that as he would rather not take a huge contract back, and instead would offer: 6th for 8th + either Mclemore or Belinelli

Would you do one of these trades? Or would you rather hope that either Dunn lasts till 8 and that noone else trades up to get him or just draft someone else?
 
As far as turning that corner, why take it so soon when you have the shot at adding another player that can be part of the core? I just don't understand the rationale at being willing to give up a solid chance at a significant player. It's like saying we draft Westbrook & Durant so let's give up the opportunity to draft Harden for veteran roleplayers. That is a mistake. If you have another shot at a player like that, YOU TAKE IT! You do not sell that opportunity for roleplayers. This is a stars league.

i suppose it depends on how you want to define a team's "core." is it necessarily three players who are all high-level stars, a la durant/westbrook/harden or james/love/irving? the early-00's kings' "core" was built around a superstar in chris webber, a mid-level star in peja stojakovic, and a fringe star in mike bibby. and those three were surrounded by roleplayers of significant worth, including vlade divac and doug christie. that structure took them far. though it's absolutely a star's league, often it's the make-up of the remainder of a roster that turns out to be the deciding factor between who wins and loses in the nba. you have to build a team...

for example, i'm certainly no warriors fan or apologist, but they were gutsy in turning down a trade for kevin love and rolling with their established core, which would go on to win a title and is currently working on their second. they have an mvp-level star in steph curry, two low-to-mid-level stars in klay thompson and draymond green, and a bunch of two-way roleplayers of significant worth, including andre iguodala and andrew bogut. trying to add a high-level (and defensively deficient) star like kevin love would have upset their balance considerably, and i think the warriors were right in passing on such a deal. meanwhile, the cavaliers are struggling to find balance between their three high-level stars, and they've struggled to locate chemistry or consistency for two straight seasons in an eastern conference that, while improved, lacks any distinctive contenders. the cavs of lebron's second stint with the franchise have yet to coalesce into a team for more than a few weeks at a time...

we can also look to the philadelphia 76ers for wisdom on this subject. they're about to draft ben simmons, who has a chance to be a high-level star in this league, but they've spent the last few years collecting "assets" rather than building a team, and judgment day is coming. what do they do now with all of these "significant players" they've drafted based on the wisdom of BPA, despite obvious issues like fit and balance? there simply aren't enough minutes to go around or complementary skills to properly balance a frontcourt of okafor/noel/embiid/saric/simmons. and if they trade one or more of these "assets," what are the sixers likely to get in return but roleplayers? whose trading them a star--or even a "potential star"--when the sixers are at a lack for leverage? sometimes there is greater value in recognizing when to trade down to justify picking a player that fits your team-building vision, or trading out of the draft altogether in pursuit of some veteran stability...

the thunder, for example, did well in drafting all three of durant, westbrook, and harden. and they may not have been wise to cut ties with james harden when they did and/or how they did, but now we're watching steven adams evolve into a significant and scrappy roleplayer for OKC, and they did manage to take down a well-oiled and machine-like 67-win spurs team, and also managed to claw their way through a tough 7-game series against a legendary 73-win warriors team. and though they ultimately lost the latter series, can we honestly say that they would have been better off with the notoriously me-first, oft-publicized defense-averse harden? i'm not so sure. it's tempting to think that harden could have stayed in his lane as a super sixth man, but it's also easy to believe that he would eventually have soured on such a role, given what we know about his attitude, and given the occasionally prickly demeanor of kevin durant and the headstrong nature of russell westbrook...

as for the timberwolves, about whom this argument was initially revolving around, i'd say they're in a great place precisely because of their flexibility this offseason. they've got a bright future ahead with karl-anthony towns and andrew wiggins, and they can add another talented young player through the draft who can grow with towns and wiggins, or they can trade that pick to bring in some complementary veteran talent that tom thibodeau will no doubt maximize in pursuit of a well-balanced roster. it's not a particularly strong draft, anyway. there will no doubt be some good players who come out of it, but if it's not vital for a rebuilding team to hit a home run in the draft because they've already got their #1 and #2 guys, then i see no reason why trading the pick for complementary pieces would be a bad idea. veteran leadership is so important to a team's growth. just look at the kings' failures on the leadership front across the last decade for proof...

more to the point, draft picks are often more valuable than the players they represent, and can yield a strong return in a trade for proven talent. draft picks represent hope, after all, even though most of the players in a given lottery will never rise above that maligned "roleplayer" status. think of it this way: the 7th pick in the 2013 draft--weak though it may have been overall--is much more valuable on draft day than ben mclemore is today. a lottery pick holds so much promise and potential on draft day. hell, even ben mclemore holds so much promise and potential on draft day. kings' brass and kings fans alike were bending over backwards to believe that mclemore might be the next ray allen. and what do we know today? mclemore will be lucky if he can remain a utility shooter in the nba...

if i'm minnesota, and i don't see a player that i absolutely love when i'm on the clock, then i definitely consider tempting another team into hoping that the answer to their problems awaits at the 5th spot in the draft. let them convince themselves that "player x" is the second-coming of whoever while i pluck some useful contributors from their roster. if "player x" winds up a star, i may be bothered by it, but i've still got KAT and wiggins as my foundation, and hopefully i've put a strong supporting cast in place to get me to the playoffs sooner rather than later. rebuilds shouldn't be rushed, but again, the kings serve as a good example of what can go wrong when a rebuild never truly gets off the ground because of poor drafting, lack of attention to roster balance, and a lack of veteran leadership...
 
There's a difference between being coachable as a 20yr old numbnut kid, and being coachable as a 30yr old multiple time All Star/champion with 100 playoff games under your belt. In the first case maybe your coaches know better how your game should look. In the second case you damn well better know your game and have confidence in it, and if a coach doesn't get it, you need to explain it to him.

Sometime its the coach who's the stubborn ignoramus. Not infrequently actually.

So your saying that Rondo should decide what kind of offense your team is going to run? Your saying that if Rondo went to the Spurs, which would never happen, that Pops would just hand him the ball and say have fun? I don't think so. I think if a coach has a system or a plan for the offense, and the defense, and he finds that the PG with the expiring contract doesn't fit what he wants to do, then you don't resign him. Better to avoid possible conflict in the future. Rondo comes with a track record of what happens when a coach disagrees with him.

Where we agree is on Dunn. He's a young player new to the NBA who has been very coachable in college. So I don't see a problem arising with him. I could be wrong. Anything is possible, but I do believe in playing the odds. One thing I do know. Dunn is a very good defender, and that's something that Rondo isn't. At least not anymore. If we are indeed thinking of signing a Ryan Anderson, or a similar player, then having a perimeter player that can keep his man in front of him would certainly help.

Having said all that, if Joerger wants to run mostly isolation basketball where you post up Cousins, or get the ball to Gay where he likes it, then resign Rondo and go for it. Just know that Rondo is going to have the ball in his hands most of the time. To Rondo's credit, he did play off the ball better last season than I expected. I just wonder if his three point shooting will regress, or stay as consistent as last season.
 
Hogwash. When you have a light at the end of the tunnel (Towns/Wiggins/LaVine/#5/Thibs), you do everything you can to turn that team into a championship contender. They will already be competitive next year. Adding Collison is not going dramatically change that fact.

If you don't think their fan base is excited about a Dunn/LaVine/Wiggins/Towns/Thibs core moving forward, I don't know what to tell you. The fans get it. They see the plan. The see the light at the end of the tunnel. They see that their future is bright. You don't have to do anything else right not other than making sure you don't do anything that could neuter that core's potential when it actually comes time for them to start competing for a championship.

And just so the record is straight. I never said the Wolves won't be competitive next year. I said what's the rush? They have players who can help them win now and that's fine. Let Thibs do his thing, win some ball games, & establish a winning culture. That's all good stuff. However, if you want to trade back in the draft potentially missing out on a player who could become a difference maker when it actually comes time to start competing for a championship, that is what I have a MAJOR problem with. Especially, when it is a low level/high end bench guard who could be gone in 1 year. For instance, what if Dunn turned out to be a Lowry/Wall caliber player or what if he turned out to be G. Hill/Collison but one who's prime coincides with your core? That's the important part here.

I see Collison as a player who will not be in their future when it comes time to compete so it essentially boils down to #5 for #8. Having said that, I have no problem with them adding guys like Collison to the roster to improve the team, establish a winning culture, etc. but not at the expense of a player who can help them when they need it most (which #5 could turn out to be).

The trade makes no sense for them, and I'd dare you to venture over to a Minnesota forum or even a neutral NBA forum and propose such a deal to see what the reaction will be.

Illogical! Hogwash! How does that sound coming back at you. You must be fun to have a discussion with in person. Yeah, they might be missing out on a player that could help at five, but they might be drafting a player that could help at eight. I have no idea what their thinking is. Whatever it might be, their main core remains in tact. Their not giving up Towns, Wiggins, LaVine, or even Rubio. So what's the problem? They get to add a solid veteran point guard simply by dropping down three spots.

Secondly, you don't go from being out of the playoffs as long as they have been, to the championship series. Mainly it's about experience more than talent. don't get me wrong, you need the talent, but even if you have championship talent, you don't have the experience. Is it possible? Yes, but it seldom happens. So get to the playoffs and go as far as you can go. Get the experience, and find out what your weaknesses are. Use freeagency and the following years draft to address those needs, and maybe, if things fall right, you get to the western conference finals the next year. This isn't shortsighted, this is building a championship team.
 
Illogical! Hogwash! How does that sound coming back at you. You must be fun to have a discussion with in person. Yeah, they might be missing out on a player that could help at five, but they might be drafting a player that could help at eight. I have no idea what their thinking is. Whatever it might be, their main core remains in tact. Their not giving up Towns, Wiggins, LaVine, or even Rubio. So what's the problem? They get to add a solid veteran point guard simply by dropping down three spots.

Secondly, you don't go from being out of the playoffs as long as they have been, to the championship series. Mainly it's about experience more than talent. don't get me wrong, you need the talent, but even if you have championship talent, you don't have the experience. Is it possible? Yes, but it seldom happens. So get to the playoffs and go as far as you can go. Get the experience, and find out what your weaknesses are. Use freeagency and the following years draft to address those needs, and maybe, if things fall right, you get to the western conference finals the next year. This isn't shortsighted, this is building a championship team.

Simply by dropping down three spots? Simply? I guess the Sixers should trade #1 for #4 and PJ Tucker and "simply" drop down 3 spots...

Look, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I think you and I are arguing different things.

I never said that they need to go from a bottom 5 team to a championship caliber team immediately. I said they shouldn't sacrifice an opportunity to add a player that gives them a difference maker when it comes time to compete for a championship. Guys like Collison can be added pretty easily through trade or FA. Star players, 3 and D wings, defensive anchors are much harder to come by and you have a chance at acquiring one of those players at #5. That's not to say you don't have a chance at #8, but the probability is higher at #5. So if I'm going to take a lesser probability of landing this type of player, I better be getting a player that I need now (which Collison is someone they don't need right now considering they should be in no rush to be as competitive as they can right now) or another player that has a shot at becoming one of those difference makers.

If you like someone better that will be available than #8, then yeah tradeback. But make a trade with the mindset that the player at #5 has a better shot at becoming that difference maker. Otherwise, you're not getting the best deal you can. The scapegoat seems to be "oh they might like somenoe at #8 better so they are getting Collison on top of it. What a deal!" When in fact Minnesota should really be only making that deal as a last resort considering they should assume (for trade purposes) that #5 is the better player and the player they would prefer. And this is all hypothetical. Odds are that the Wolves will like a player that goes 1-7 more than a player who is available at 8.
 
as for the timberwolves, about whom this argument was initially revolving around, i'd say they're in a great place precisely because of their flexibility this offseason. they've got a bright future ahead with karl-anthony towns and andrew wiggins, and they can add another talented young player through the draft who can grow with towns and wiggins, or they can trade that pick to bring in some complementary veteran talent that tom thibodeau will no doubt maximize in pursuit of a well-balanced roster. it's not a particularly strong draft, anyway. there will no doubt be some good players who come out of it, but if it's not vital for a rebuilding team to hit a home run in the draft because they've already got their #1 and #2 guys, then i see no reason why trading the pick for complementary pieces would be a bad idea. veteran leadership is so important to a team's growth. just look at the kings' failures on the leadership front across the last decade for proof...

more to the point, draft picks are often more valuable than the players they represent, and can yield a strong return in a trade for proven talent. draft picks represent hope, after all, even though most of the players in a given lottery will never rise above that maligned "roleplayer" status. think of it this way: the 7th pick in the 2013 draft--weak though it may have been overall--is much more valuable on draft day than ben mclemore is today. a lottery pick holds so much promise and potential on draft day. hell, even ben mclemore holds so much promise and potential on draft day. kings' brass and kings fans alike were bending over backwards to believe that mclemore might be the next ray allen. and what do we know today? mclemore will be lucky if he can remain a utility shooter in the nba...

if i'm minnesota, and i don't see a player that i absolutely love when i'm on the clock, then i definitely consider tempting another team into hoping that the answer to their problems awaits at the 5th spot in the draft. let them convince themselves that "player x" is the second-coming of whoever while i pluck some useful contributors from their roster. if "player x" winds up a star, i may be bothered by it, but i've still got KAT and wiggins as my foundation, and hopefully i've put a strong supporting cast in place to get me to the playoffs sooner rather than later. rebuilds shouldn't be rushed, but again, the kings serve as a good example of what can go wrong when a rebuild never truly gets off the ground because of poor drafting, lack of attention to roster balance, and a lack of veteran leadership...

The sentence I highlighted is something we need to discuss...

Never did I say it's vital to hit a home run nor did any of you say it's vital to trade back and get a guy like Collison because (you said it) they are in a good spot. They could not even have a pick this year and be in a good position. BUT just because something is not vital, it doesn't mean it's not a wise choice. Is getting a massage vital? No, but it has it's benefits. The same can be applied here. Drafting another #1 or #2 player is not vital because they do have those types of players already, but why is there not logic in trying to acquire another #1 or #2 guy? Is there a rule that says a team can't be too good?

Again, it just doesn't make sense to sacrifice a shot at acquiring a difference maker for the likes of Darren Collison (especially when he most likely will not be a long term piece).

And again, just so it's clear, I'm all for bringing in veteran leadership to a team to establish that winning culture and teach the kids how to practice and prepare the right way, but you don't add these players at the expense of a potential star. You can get that type of vet leadership through trading a guy like Shabazz and/or Dieng, or you can look to FA to acquire those players. But again, you don't lower your probability of landing another #1/#2 for these types of veteran players especially when they have guys like Towns/Wiggins/Lavine locked up for the next 7-8 years.
 
The sentence I highlighted is something we need to discuss...

Never did I say it's vital to hit a home run nor did any of you say it's vital to trade back and get a guy like Collison because (you said it) they are in a good spot. They could not even have a pick this year and be in a good position. BUT just because something is not vital, it doesn't mean it's not a wise choice. Is getting a massage vital? No, but it has it's benefits. The same can be applied here. Drafting another #1 or #2 player is not vital because they do have those types of players already, but why is there not logic in trying to acquire another #1 or #2 guy? Is there a rule that says a team can't be too good?

Again, it just doesn't make sense to sacrifice a shot at acquiring a difference maker for the likes of Darren Collison (especially when he most likely will not be a long term piece).

And again, just so it's clear, I'm all for bringing in veteran leadership to a team to establish that winning culture and teach the kids how to practice and prepare the right way, but you don't add these players at the expense of a potential star. You can get that type of vet leadership through trading a guy like Shabazz and/or Dieng, or you can look to FA to acquire those players. But again, you don't lower your probability of landing another #1/#2 for these types of veteran players especially when they have guys like Towns/Wiggins/Lavine locked up for the next 7-8 years.

I don't disagree with much of what you said. The question then becomes, how valuable is the player at five compared to who you might acquire at eight. If you think it's a huge difference, then you don't make the deal. If you think the overall quality of the player at eight is near the player you will acquire at five, and you can pick up a nice backup PG in the process, then you go ahead and make the trade. So it comes down to a matter of perception by the GM, or whoever makes the decision.. Team need could also make the decision for you. If you know you can get a player that you want at five who also fits a need, then you keep the pick.

I don't know what the mindset in Minny is, so it's all speculation at this point. Looking at it from a biased point of view, I think it would be a great trade for the T Wolves........:rolleyes:
 
Collison is a mediocre point guard who just got arrested for domestic violence. I'm closing this thread due to "never going to happen"
 
I am disappointed in Darren, but I think we have to retain him, with Rondo unlikely to return and his trade value near nil. We are NOT getting Dunn, because teams ahead of us are valuing immediate production and perimeter skills for obvious reasons. Our best course of action is Buddy or Baldwin or even Jaylen Brown. I think a guy like Dragen Bender could slide to #8 with teams ahead of not wanting to wait on an 18 year old. Tomorrow is going to be fun. More unpredictability than ANY draft I have ever studied.
 
Just for fun imagine if Adam Silver walks up to the podium tomorrow at #8 and announces there has been a trade. I like those type of events WAY better than bleeping Woj tweets.
 
I am surprised that we didn't get in on the Teague or Hill deals given that Utah gave up 12 to get the deal done. I suspect with Teague we thought he might be a 1 year rental.

I would be very interested in getting Bledsoe and would be more than happy to include pick 8 into the discussion as I don't think we will get a player with upside that will be able to be productive from day 1..
 
I am surprised that we didn't get in on the Teague or Hill deals given that Utah gave up 12 to get the deal done. I suspect with Teague we thought he might be a 1 year rental.

I would be very interested in getting Bledsoe and would be more than happy to include pick 8 into the discussion as I don't think we will get a player with upside that will be able to be productive from day 1..
Wouldn't surprise me that a deal is in place dependent on PHX getting Dunn at 4 which would trigger a deal involving other pieces.
 
What if Dunn is Jimmer? That's a what if too.


I get the point you're making, but, in this instance, it's not really a what if, IMO.

While there are questions regarding Dunn's ability to shoot the ball, the one thing most everyone seems to agree upon is that he will be a very good to elite defender at the next level. That, if nothing else, takes the what if possibility away.

If you draft him, at the very least you should have an excellent perimeter oriented defender to add to WCS and Boogie.
 
Collison is a good/solid NBA PG. That's giving up a lot of material to take a blind shot on a kid 3 picks earlier.

Couldn't agree more. If DC clears his mess, then getting a good backup PG makes sense and concentrating on the 2 and 3 for shooters and lock down defenders
 
I wouldn't give up Collison and #8 just to get a shot at Dunn. That is a hefty price to pay. We need to accumulate assets. If he is there at 8, great. If not I start looking at veteran PGs like Bledsoe to pair with Collison. Remember that Collison is a FA next year and will cost a heck of a lot more to re-sign than he is on now.
 
Sooo, just stay off twitter? That's what I do if I am watching something like the draft.
I really wish it was more like the NFL. No spoilers allowed.

However, if you're watching the draft, no reason to check twitter every second ;)

I love the draft live. The only thing I wish they would do instead is call players AFTER they've been selected.. there's been a few times where reporters have been talking about a player, and the camera pans over to them for 1s...and we see that they're on the phone.
I hope I'm not confusing this for the NFL draft... I believe both sports call before the announcement of the pick.
 
I like being here during the draft. I'm not on Twitter. It bleeds into here despite the efforts of the mods they can't keep the spoilers out
 
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