Jeremy Fraser
G-League
We desperately need Josh Smith.
Can Josh Smith be saved?
- Thread starter Jeremy Fraser
- Start date
Nobody desperately needs Josh Smith.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
So we could what? Be even more offensively inefficient?
Jeremy Fraser
G-League
Same thing that was said when Rudy "Ban the stat sheets in the locker room/Toronto resurrection when he left " Gay was brought over. Detroit is a cesspool and doesn't compliment his talents well considering they don't have players near the level of Cousins or Gay.
He was on a playoff team in Atlanta, and was ridiculously inefficient here, too.
Jeremy Fraser
G-League
Was he playing with the best big man in the league and a top 5 SF?
What, in Josh Smith's entire career leads you to believe that he's a team player? Talent aside, if he couldn't play with Al Horford and Joe Johnson, what makes you think he can play with DeMarcus Cousins and Rudy Gay? Josh Smith is the Dion Waiters of undersized big men.
It's also about character. Josh Smith does not fit the mold of player PDA is obviously looking for.
Heh. That reminds me of a line from one of my favorite episodes of Castle. To paraphrase:
It's not about the talent, Jeremy Fraser, it's about character. And Josh Smith would know that, if he had any.
Jeremy Fraser
G-League
Do you realize this is virtually the same exact thing that was said about Rudy before coming here? He was labeled as an inefficient, blackhole chucker. There was literally no way he could play with IT and Cuz based on his past yet managed a ~500 record when they all played together.
It's not quite the same thing: Rudy Gay was an inefficient black hole chucker as still arguably the best player on the team, in both Memphis and Toronto (maybe not a strong argument, but still arguable). Josh Smith is an inefficient black hole chucker as the third-best player in both Atlanta and Detroit.
Sacramento is the first place that Gay has played where he was asked to take a step back, and he has managed to succeed, to this point. Josh Smith has already been asked to step back, twice, and has basically decided that he ain't about that life.
Sacramento is the first place that Gay has played where he was asked to take a step back, and he has managed to succeed, to this point. Josh Smith has already been asked to step back, twice, and has basically decided that he ain't about that life.
Not by everyone. A significant number of Kings fans were really happy about the Rudy Gay acquisition.
Jeremy Fraser
G-League
Of course they were, we gave up a bunch of useless scrubs for a player with a high output potential which would be the same thing we'd be doing in a Smith trade. Rudy changed for the better and I don't see why Smith couldn't either, especially when he has more skills (passing ability, defensive ability) than Gay did when coming over.
So you're just going to ignore the character issue because it doesn't fit with your agenda? Okay... have a nice evening.
Here's the thing, though, and I'll quote myself from the thread in the Personnel Moves forum:
Whatever criticisms people had about pre-Sacramento Gay, nobody ever called him lazy. People call Josh Smith lazy all the time.
Jeremy Fraser
G-League
My "agenda" lel
I have no agenda. I just want to see a team that doesn't squander a 14 point lead to David West, Roy Hibbert and a bunch of journeymen and I see no reason why Smith wouldn't be an upgrade over Thompson.
Jeremy Fraser
G-League
My "agenda" lel
I have no agenda. I just want to see a team that doesn't squander a 14 point lead to David West, Roy Hibbert and a bunch of journeymen and I see no reason why Smith wouldn't be an upgrade over Thompson.
And you think that Josh F. Smith would be a solution to that problem? Do you know what Josh Smith does when his team has a 14-point lead? He goes Full 'Toine, that's what he does.
NEVER GO FULL 'TOINE!
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
You and I obviously view Josh Smith through different eyes, so I'll leave it at that. But don't count on seeing him in a Kings uniform.
Jeremy Fraser
G-League
Rudy's nice guy role sure didn't help him as being labeled a blackhole chucker in Toronto. You can't always depend on nice guys with incredible personalities to provide wins. I'm not quite sure why people on here are making the implication that Josh Smith is some super cancer who ruins teams with his personality. I'd like a link to these claims .
Jeremy Fraser
G-League
And you think that Josh F. Smith would be a solution to that problem? Do you know what Josh Smith does when his team has a 14-point lead? He goes Full 'Toine, that's what he does.
NEVER GO FULL 'TOINE!
And what did Rudy do under the same circumstances?
I view Josh as someone who can be turned into the talented and valuable player he has shown signs of in his career despite his drawbacks such as Rudy before he came here.
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Well, he didn't go Full 'Toine, for one thing: he wasn't even on the court for a good portion of it. And yeah, he did miss shots, but all of them were inside the line, and most of them were in the paint. None of Smith's would have been.
Also, we're talking about a pattern of behavior, not one game. Even when Gay is not hitting, he's being aggressive; he's not taking long three-pointers early in the shot clock. Smith compounds missing shots with being lazy about it.
You might want to click on the red "Josh" and the blue "Smith"...
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Because it's essentially true and not just limited to his personality but his play over the last three years as well. Watch a Detroit game and you'll see Smith take a bunch of ill-advised stupid stupid shots from just inside the three point line as Andre Drummond is reduced to just sitting around praying that this will be one of the possessions when good Smith shows up and passes the ball. You'll also see Smith half-ass some hustle plays, miss assignments on defense in the name of "shot-blocking", and you'll see him make Dwight Howard look like Rick Barry from the FT line (.474). Also, for the season, Smith is leading his team in shot attempts per game despite shooting a stunningly bad .373 from the field (precisely the same FG% as Jason Thompson except JT takes TEN LESS SHOTS a game), which is bad in general but just plain awful for a guy you're starting at power forward.
You act like Smith is still a youngster who we can craft into a complete player with some hard work and a can-do attitude. Well, the man's been in the NBA for ten years now but still jacks up really really dumb shots even though he has somehow gotten worse at shooting, and has been on the decline for the last three years. The man's just about to exit his prime and I have pretty much no confidence that he'll develop the mental aspects of his game to compensate.
Were we trading for 25 year old Josh Smith, I'd say sure but at this point in his career with that contract and that attitude? No thank you.
PS. Those personality claims are also linked in my last post.
Jeremy Fraser
G-League
Gay certainly went Toine in Toronto. He'd go complete iso eating up the whole shotclock and end up taking a ton of very contested long jumpers. You don't have that much talent to end up being part of trade that has Vasquez and Patterson being the main pieces coming back for you if you didn't have serious problems. He has changed a LOT in Sacramento and has shown passing ability no one in Toronto and even Memphis knew existed which has resulted in much better shot selection. The fact he has (typically) Cousins playing with him also opens up a lot.
This is why I believe Smith can be saved. Gay is a completely different player than he's been throughout his career and is fully maximizing his talent. It came at a very, very low cost. The same would apply to Smith. He would cost us nothing talent wise (McCallum would probably be the best player going out) and he'd all of a sudden be playing with the best talent of his career and a coach who has turned a player whos had character issues (Cousins) and a player whos been consistently labeled a blackhole (Gay) into very good building blocks for the future. I feel as if our coaching staff is very good at leveling out players personalities and bad tendencies.
Now if we can get a great bench player for something similar to Smith's cost, I'd be very happy with that. But I think Smith right now is the best bargain we could get given Malone's ability with player personality. But there is certainly no way we can move forward with this current team and think anything will come of it. We got Cousins, Gay, Collison, and Ben's improvement. Stauskas has been awful and there's nothing else beyond that. For a small market team like us, risks need to be taken to reap benefits (see Gay, Rudy playing with two players with extraordinarily high usage rates).
'89 Kings Fan
Bench
Defensive Tracking Stats
FYI, more negative is better. And here is are two more stats for you:
Jason Thomson
USG% 11.2
+/- NetRtg 2.5
Josh Smith
USG% 25.2
+/- NetRtg -11.7
Josh Smith is a knucklehead who relies on his fading athleticism who may have the worst contract in the league (even more than Landry). You really think we would get him to cut his usage in half and just play defense? Not trading for Josh Smith was probably the best move Pete will ever make. As opposed to Jason Thompson, if you look at players who have played more that 15 games and 20 minutes per game he has the fourth lowest usage in the league. Kind of important when playing between Cousins and Gay.
Code:
Jason Thompson
Overall -6.2
3 Pointers 2.0
2 Pointers -8.1
Less than 6ft -7.5
Less than 10 ft -10
Greater than 15ft 2.1
Josh Smith
Overall -2.7
3 Pointers 3.3
2 Pointers -3.8
Less than 6ft -12.5
Less than 10 ft -8.8
Greater than 15ft 2.9FYI, more negative is better. And here is are two more stats for you:
Jason Thomson
USG% 11.2
+/- NetRtg 2.5
Josh Smith
USG% 25.2
+/- NetRtg -11.7
Josh Smith is a knucklehead who relies on his fading athleticism who may have the worst contract in the league (even more than Landry). You really think we would get him to cut his usage in half and just play defense? Not trading for Josh Smith was probably the best move Pete will ever make. As opposed to Jason Thompson, if you look at players who have played more that 15 games and 20 minutes per game he has the fourth lowest usage in the league. Kind of important when playing between Cousins and Gay.
Jeremy Fraser
G-League
Again, this whole thing sounds like Rudy Gay in Toronto (minus the FT%). I'm not condoning Smith being the leading shot taker in Detroit, but really, WHAT DOES DETROIT HAVE OFFENSIVELY THAT WOULD KEEP SMITH'S SHOT TOTAL DOWN? Nothing. They don't have a Cousins. They don't have a Gay They have no one for Smith to concede the ball to. I'm not saying that's a perfectly logical reason for Smith to be shooting so much, but do you honestly think playing on a team with two of the best offensive players he's played with in his career as opposed to Brandon Jennings and Greg Monroe wouldn't result in a lot less shooting? Hell, all Rudy needed was one elite player to reduce his bad tendencies.
Was Rudy a youngster who we could "craft into a complete player" when he came? He was a veteran with very bad tendencies that have been improved.
Just checked the links and there was absolutely nothing that sounded like the team ruining cancer as you and others seem to make him out to be. Not necessarily
the type of things you WANT to hear, but a couple articles 5 years apart talking about off the court banter isn't something to imply the guy is some cancerous locker room presence.
ninjabiscuit
Bench
I think that Rudy sometimes goes into "I have to win this game by myself" mode, but frankly sometimes I think he looks around and thinks the best choice is taking the shot himself, and some of those times I think he's right (not always, but more often than not.). I haven't watched Josh Smith very much, honestly, but I'm very leery of bringing a guy with character questions into the locker room. We are well on the way to clearing those problems out, and I'm all for that.
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