Buddy or Bogs - Who should start? (Revisited)

#1
Sometimes I wish I chose LAL or BOS to cheer for when I was a kid :D

Jokes aside, we need a looot better defense when it starts to matter. We need better shooting and better rebounding.

Both Buddy and Bazemore are far more efficient than Bogdan and I really don't see why is Buddy coming off the bench.
 
#2
Sometimes I wish I chose LAL or BOS to cheer for when I was a kid :D

Jokes aside, we need a looot better defense when it starts to matter. We need better shooting and better rebounding.

Both Buddy and Bazemore are far more efficient than Bogdan and I really don't see why is Buddy coming off the bench.
Buddy was coming off the bench because he had an extremely inefficient start to the season. With his defense and decision making being subpar, it was becoming a liability having him start if his shot wasn't falling. He actually turned his season around after coming off the bench. But Bogdan isn't much of an improvement as a starter.
 
#3
Buddy was coming off the bench because he had an extremely inefficient start to the season. With his defense and decision making being subpar, it was becoming a liability having him start if his shot wasn't falling. He actually turned his season around after coming off the bench. But Bogdan isn't much of an improvement as a starter.
I understand this, but I struggle to see what Bogdan brings to this team in general. He keeps struggling with his shooting, he cannot score on a consistent basis (unless he's playing for the national team), he often passes a good shot and then takes a horrible shot, etc.

Perhaps Luke could give him some minutes on a PG position, as he has a proven ability to facilitate plays for the other guys. In any case, I'd always go with Buddy and Bazemore the way they play now. Bogdan's impact on the game is just too small
 
#4
I understand this, but I struggle to see what Bogdan brings to this team in general. He keeps struggling with his shooting, he cannot score on a consistent basis (unless he's playing for the national team), he often passes a good shot and then takes a horrible shot, etc.

Perhaps Luke could give him some minutes on a PG position, as he has a proven ability to facilitate plays for the other guys. In any case, I'd always go with Buddy and Bazemore the way they play now. Bogdan's impact on the game is just too small
hard to judge Bogi on a practice game. He just doesn’t look motivated at the moment. We shall see what happens when games start for real.
 
#5
hard to judge Bogi on a practice game. He just doesn’t look motivated at the moment. We shall see what happens when games start for real.
Yeah, I get your point but to me that’s exactly the problem. If you’re not capable of playing well in a practice game, how you’re going to be better in the real game. He should be motivated in these games because he has a lot to prove, plus if you consider youself a big player, you always come out hungry.
 
#6
Yeah, I get your point but to me that’s exactly the problem. If you’re not capable of playing well in a practice game, how you’re going to be better in the real game. He should be motivated in these games because he has a lot to prove, plus if you consider youself a big player, you always come out hungry.
heard something interesting around motivation.
Some are motivated by fear
Some are motivated by fame
Some are motivated by competition.

Bogi is clearly the later
 
#8
Fox
Buddy
Bogi
Barnes
Holmes

Beli first off bench
Absolutely not we’d be the worst defending team in the league.

What I agree with is, if we’re gonna be a serious playoff team and maximize Fox/Bagley potential than Barnes has to start at PF. We’d be undersized at center but every other position would be fine if we fined a 6’7-6’8 SF. Also I’m starting Bogi over Buddy in any scenario
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#9
If they want to keep Bogdan and not lose Buddy the simple answer is BOTH. Who starts wasn't becoming the issue prior to shutdown, the issue was both Buddy and Bogdan were splitting minutes with Buddy dipping into the 25 mpg area. That's just plain stupid. He's clearly this teams biggest threat. You know how you know? He's the only player we've seen teams double or weigh their help towards both with and without the ball. Nobody else, not even Fox gets that attention. That might be one of the reasons why the net ratings favor Buddy in almost every worthwhile 5 man combination. Also we've moved on from the Buddy/Curry comparisons thankfully but one way they are very similar is that they can turn a bad shooting night all the way around in the span of one quarter. The more minutes you play those types the more chance you have of a run.
 
#10
Absolutely not we’d be the worst defending team in the league.

What I agree with is, if we’re gonna be a serious playoff team and maximize Fox/Bagley potential than Barnes has to start at PF. We’d be undersized at center but every other position would be fine if we fined a 6’7-6’8 SF. Also I’m starting Bogi over Buddy in any scenario
And the alternative is what? Unfortunately it's like mediocre on both ends. If it didn't work you change it but this team has too many subpar first half of the first quarters far too often. It seems like almost every game they start off in a hole. With where this team is at you load up on talent and then figure out fit later. Walton has been looking for fit almost all season while consistently being behind the 8 ball talent wise. That won't cut it with where they need to go. Until he develops a system and the chemistry dictates need, they have to try and out gun teams.
 
#11
Kings need a ball handler on the floor besides Fox. With Buddy/Barnes on the wing, opposing defense over plays and force the ball out of Fox's hands and dare someone besides Fox to make a play; and often they couldn't because playmaking is not their thing. As the SG, the ball is often swung to Buddy and too many times he was not finding teammates or was in hero ball mode and jacked up shots. That's why Bogi was inserted into the starting lineup and why the offense looked better with him partnering Fox.

The same problem existed last year and Joeger tried to fix it by sliding Barnes to PF and used Bogi at SF while keeping Buddy at SG. While that didn't work that well it still worked better than not having Bogi there. And yes, Bogi at times can have his hero ball moment but overall, the offense runs better with Bogi in the starting lineup; at least it forces the opposing defense to be more creative than just "make Fox give up the rock".
 
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#12
Kings need a ball handler on the floor besides Fox. With Buddy/Barnes on the wing, opposing defense over plays and force the ball out of Fox's hands and dare someone besides Fox to make a play; and often they couldn't because playmaking is not their thing. As the SG, the ball is often swung to Buddy and too many times he was not finding teammates or was in hero ball mode and jacked up shots. That's why Bogi was inserted into the starting lineup and why the offense looked better with him partnering Fox.

The same problem existed last year and Joeger tried to fix it by sliding Barnes to PF and used Bogi at SF while keeping Buddy at SG. While that didn't work that well it still worked better than not having Bogi there. And yes, Bogi at times can have his hero ball moment but overall, the offense runs better with Bogi in the starting lineup; at least it forces the opposing defense to be more creative than just "make Fox give up the rock".
Don't quite see how that's any different with the second unit. Like why does Fox need a secondary ballhandler when he can create for himself, while you're happy running CoJo out with Buddy who is a bad playmaker? What's the logic there?
 
#13
Don't quite see how that's any different with the second unit. Like why does Fox need a secondary ballhandler when he can create for himself, while you're happy running CoJo out with Buddy who is a bad playmaker? What's the logic there?
Bogi was in the 2nd unit until he moved to the starting lineup and he sometimes played with the 2nd unit even as a starter. Both Ariza and Bazemore could and did handle the ball; and now they added Corey Brewer who is also good at that.

This is not NBA2k, you can't just have one guy with ball handling on the floor because teams will take that away by forcing Fox to give up the ball.

If you don't understand the logic then watch the Bulls - Sonics NBA Final on youtube for a master class on how this is done. The Sonics had only one ball handler in Gary Payton; the Bulls repeatedly overplayed him, forced him to pass the ball and they ended up with guys who couldn't dribble trying to break down the Bulls defense. It was ugly.

Good teams typically employs a secondary or even third ball handler (someone besides the PG) - from Klay to Lebron to Doncic to Mitchell to Van Fleet to Harden. Some of these names are really the primary ball handlers but that just makes the PG the secondary and the point still stands. I didn't know this is controversial because it's straight from the basketball playbook - when the PG is forced to swing the ball to the weak side, you want the player on the weak side to immediately attack the defense because it is drifting from strong to the weak side and some defenders may be out of position. If the guy happens to be Buddy and (assuming he doesn't get an open look) he can't attack the defense like a competent ball handler so he either jacks up a contested shot, make a bad pass, or pass up the opportunity (therefore allowing the defense time to reset). If the ball has to swing back to Fox in order for someone to attack the defense then you're butting up against the shot clock, forced to do something against a set defense, and that's how inefficient offense happens.

.
 
#14
Bogi was in the 2nd unit until he moved to the starting lineup and he sometimes played with the 2nd unit even as a starter. Both Ariza and Bazemore could and did handle the ball; and now they added Corey Brewer who is also good at that.

This is not NBA2k, you can't just have one guy with ball handling on the floor because teams will take that away by forcing Fox to give up the ball.

If you don't understand the logic then watch the Bulls - Sonics NBA Final on youtube for a master class on how this is done. The Sonics had only one ball handler in Gary Payton; the Bulls repeatedly overplayed him, forced him to pass the ball and they ended up with guys who couldn't dribble trying to break down the Bulls defense. It was ugly.

Good teams typically employs a secondary or even third ball handler (someone besides the PG) - from Klay to Lebron to Doncic to Mitchell to Van Fleet to Harden. Some of these names are really the primary ball handlers but that just makes the PG the secondary and the point still stands. I didn't know this is controversial because it's straight from the basketball playbook - when the PG is forced to swing the ball to the weak side, you want the player on the weak side to immediately attack the defense because it is drifting from strong to the weak side and some defenders may be out of position. If the guy happens to be Buddy and (assuming he doesn't get an open look) he can't attack the defense like a competent ball handler so he either jacks up a contested shot, make a bad pass, or pass up the opportunity (therefore allowing the defense time to reset). If the ball has to swing back to Fox in order for someone to attack the defense then you're butting up against the shot clock, forced to do something against a set defense, and that's how inefficient offense happens.

.
If you have one ball handler you’re tanking, if you have two your team is possibly good, three means you’re for sure a playoff team. Assuming these ball handlers are good
 
#15
Bogi was in the 2nd unit until he moved to the starting lineup and he sometimes played with the 2nd unit even as a starter. Both Ariza and Bazemore could and did handle the ball; and now they added Corey Brewer who is also good at that.

This is not NBA2k, you can't just have one guy with ball handling on the floor because teams will take that away by forcing Fox to give up the ball.

If you don't understand the logic then watch the Bulls - Sonics NBA Final on youtube for a master class on how this is done. The Sonics had only one ball handler in Gary Payton; the Bulls repeatedly overplayed him, forced him to pass the ball and they ended up with guys who couldn't dribble trying to break down the Bulls defense. It was ugly.

Good teams typically employs a secondary or even third ball handler (someone besides the PG) - from Klay to Lebron to Doncic to Mitchell to Van Fleet to Harden. Some of these names are really the primary ball handlers but that just makes the PG the secondary and the point still stands. I didn't know this is controversial because it's straight from the basketball playbook - when the PG is forced to swing the ball to the weak side, you want the player on the weak side to immediately attack the defense because it is drifting from strong to the weak side and some defenders may be out of position. If the guy happens to be Buddy and (assuming he doesn't get an open look) he can't attack the defense like a competent ball handler so he either jacks up a contested shot, make a bad pass, or pass up the opportunity (therefore allowing the defense time to reset). If the ball has to swing back to Fox in order for someone to attack the defense then you're butting up against the shot clock, forced to do something against a set defense, and that's how inefficient offense happens.

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Snark aside, you still aren't answering the question - how is having Buddy as the primary ballhandler on the second unit any better? Your "straight from the basketball playbook" solution apparently has a guy who you say "can't attack the defense like a competent ball handler" being basically the #1, #2 and #3 option on offense and the primary ballhandler off the bench. Unless you're saying that Cory Joseph is a better ballhandler and offensive threat than Fox?

And why didn't we draft Doncic then?
 
#16
If you don't understand the logic then watch the Bulls - Sonics NBA Final on youtube for a master class on how this is done. The Sonics had only one ball handler in Gary Payton; the Bulls repeatedly overplayed him, forced him to pass the ball and they ended up with guys who couldn't dribble trying to break down the Bulls defense. It was ugly.
Those Bulls dominated everyone, and it has nothing to do with the Sonics. Hersey Hawkins, McMillan, and Schrempf were all very capable ball handlers, and would be better than anyone besides Fox on this team.
 
#17
Bogi was in the 2nd unit until he moved to the starting lineup and he sometimes played with the 2nd unit even as a starter. Both Ariza and Bazemore could and did handle the ball; and now they added Corey Brewer who is also good at that.

This is not NBA2k, you can't just have one guy with ball handling on the floor because teams will take that away by forcing Fox to give up the ball.

If you don't understand the logic then watch the Bulls - Sonics NBA Final on youtube for a master class on how this is done. The Sonics had only one ball handler in Gary Payton; the Bulls repeatedly overplayed him, forced him to pass the ball and they ended up with guys who couldn't dribble trying to break down the Bulls defense. It was ugly.

Good teams typically employs a secondary or even third ball handler (someone besides the PG) - from Klay to Lebron to Doncic to Mitchell to Van Fleet to Harden. Some of these names are really the primary ball handlers but that just makes the PG the secondary and the point still stands. I didn't know this is controversial because it's straight from the basketball playbook - when the PG is forced to swing the ball to the weak side, you want the player on the weak side to immediately attack the defense because it is drifting from strong to the weak side and some defenders may be out of position. If the guy happens to be Buddy and (assuming he doesn't get an open look) he can't attack the defense like a competent ball handler so he either jacks up a contested shot, make a bad pass, or pass up the opportunity (therefore allowing the defense time to reset). If the ball has to swing back to Fox in order for someone to attack the defense then you're butting up against the shot clock, forced to do something against a set defense, and that's how inefficient offense happens.

.
I don't think it's quite as cut and dry as that. Don't get me wrong, extra ball handling is extremely important. Which is why most Kings fans wanted Doncic because they saw the value in it but it's not as simple as just double teaming the point guard to take the ball out of his hands. Fox would simply just pass the ball to whomever got left open on the double team. Buddy, Barnes and Bjelica are all more than capable of driving and dishing in a 4 on 3 scenario in that case.

Buddy is our #2 guy who is often the best player on the court. He really needs to be playing the most or 2nd most minutes and he needs to be playing next to Fox to be as effective as possible. Bogdan disappears quite often in games or is just simply ineffective too often. Buddy may have a bad shooting night here and there where he loses the game for us but he wins us games at a far higher clip than Bogdan does.

CoJo needs a stronger ball handler next to him than Fox does IMO. Buddy starting and Bogdan off the bench is the best way to go if you ask me. Walton just tricked himself into thinking Buddy couldn't start because of his cold start to the year. As if those few games erased all the other games he had where he started and was just fine.
 
#19
I think we should go ahead and start both at this point and see how it fairs against good competition.

A lineup of Fox-Hield-Bogdan-Barnes has a Net RTG of +6.4 (537 minute sample size), and a lineup of Fox-Hield-Bogdan-Barnes-Holmes has a Net RTG of +19.1 (only 28 minute sample size though). The fact that the 5 man lineup has only seen 28 minutes makes me very interested to see how it would perform given more minutes (and how it holds up against other starting units).


Over the last 3 seasons, this is how Hield, Bogdan, & Barnes have shot from 3 (per36):
  • Buddy Hield: 9.0 3PA / .416 3PT%
  • Bogdan Bogdanovic: 6.9 3PA / .370 3PT%
  • Harrison Barnes: 4.9 3PA / .380 3PT%

That's extremely good spacing for Fox. Not to mention Holmes can help create space for others considering he's a lob threat that requires defenses to help off their man at times.

We're giving up size (obviously) with Bogdan & Barnes at SF & PF. Bogdan has good length at SF (8'8" Standing Reach), but his strength could be an issue (205lbs) against bigger SFs.

Barnes on the other hand has very below average length at PF (8'5.5" Standing Reach). However, his athleticism allows him to play bigger. Looking at the last 20 years of combine results among SFs & PFs, he was in the:
  • 86th percentile in Lane Agility (10.93 sec)
  • 99th percentile in Standing Vertical (38")
  • 93rd percentile in Max Vertical (39.5")
  • 73rd percentile in Bench Press (15 reps)

Holmes is also on the smaller side as a C with a 9'0" standing reach & weighing in at 242.8 lbs, but his athleticism helps him makeup for it. Looking at the last 20 years of combine results among PFs & Cs, Holmes was in the:
  • 84th percentile in Lane Agility (11.24 sec)
  • 92nd percentile in Standing Vertical (32.5")
  • 84th percentile in Max Vertical (36")
  • 65th percentile in Bench Press (15 reps)



PG - Fox (36 min) / Joseph (12 min)
SG - Hield (32 min) / Bogdan (16 min)
SF - Bogdan (16 min) / Bazemore (22 min) / Barnes (10 min)
PF - Barnes (22 min) / Bjelica (26 min)
C - Holmes (30 min) / Len (18 min)

Fox - 36 min
Hield - 32 min
Bogdan - 32 min
Barnes - 32 min
Holmes - 30 min
Bjelica - 26 min
Bazemore - 22 min
Len - 18 min
Joseph - 12 min
Ferrell - Bench
James - Bench
Brewer - Bench
Jeffries - Bench
Parker - Bench
Giles - Bench
Bagley - Injured
 
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#20
With all the negative talk towards Buddy Hield, at least by some, he fairly consistently shoots the crap out of the ball. Bogie on the other hand sure seems to me to have several off games mixed in with a good couple of games. Bazemore might have an overall more positive impact on a consistent basis than Bogie. His impact defensively on this team in particular has been great.