Buddy Hield - love him or hate him, sit him or play him (split)

[burekijogurt]

And yet Bogi is only averaging 0.5TO less than Buddy per game. The sure and steady playmaker vs sir oopsalot.

cause Walton sits Buddy to prevent that TO number from growing. lol

 

[mac]

Worth noting from a Jason Anderson article is that Buddy has been turning down interview requests and leaving without speaking to the media for a few weeks now. Well, we wanted him to keep his mouth shut and seems like he's learning to do that.

 

[burekijogurt]

anyway, we lost to the Raptors in a close game on a back to back. Would playing Buddy more yield us a victory? maybe, but there is no way to really tell.

 

[mac]

cause Walton sits Buddy to prevent that TO number from growing. lol

Buddy playing more minutes than Bogi though if I recall correctly. In any case I appreciate the lightheartedness, my point is simply that impressions/biases play a huge part in how we perceive a player's actual production

 

[burekijogurt]

Worth noting from a Jason Anderson article is that Buddy has been turning down interview requests and leaving without speaking to the media for a few weeks now. Well, we wanted him to keep his mouth shut and seems like he's learning to do that.

damned if you do damned if you don't. i would probably not talk to media as well if they are just waiting for me to say something they can sensetionalize.

 

[mac]

damned if you do damned if you don't. i would probably not talk to media as well if they are just waiting for me to say something they can sensetionalize.

I'd imagine he really doesn't have anything good to say if asked about his role and minutes, so all the better for him not to talk. Unfortunately the media isn't just going to ask him about Richaun or Alex Len or how the team is playing. They'll want to get him to say something juicy.

 

[burekijogurt]

Buddy playing more minutes than Bogi though if I recall correctly. In any case I appreciate the lightheartedness, my point is simply that impressions/biases play a huge part in how we perceive a player's actual production

ain't that the truth. check out SLAB's posts every time Henry passes the ball

 

[miltonap]

accountability guys. That's what this is about, accountability, and I think Walton did the right thing and saw the same thing a lot of us saw, not rewarding god awful play, under ANY circumstances, it's called setting standards. Long term play.

Could he have put in Buddy and Buddy made a 3 or be used as a decoy ? Sure ? Does that seem logical ? Short term sure, but I think this is bigger than that and more about the fact that Luke has been fed up with Buddy's poor decision making for a while now and wanted to make a statement.

May have cost us a loss, may not have, but I personally think it was the right thing to do. But agree to disagree.

 

[miltonap]

and I ALSO agree that it may be appropriate to stop experimenting with him. Maybe just accept that fact that the dude is just an awful decision maker, like other said, perhaps give him easy black/white decisions and not have him in positions where he can make bone headed plays.

Although honestly I've watched a lot of Buddy and a lot of times I don't even think that's a valid excuse, dude has been right next to him several times and he just straight up throws it away, either a lazy pass or a dart to sign lady.

 

[ESP47]

I watched the game and thought Buddy played decent, his 2pt shot just wasn't falling. Missed about 3 easy 14ft jumpshots.

Then I read the thread and had to go back and look at the box score because apparently I didn't notice he had 10 turnovers while I was watching the game.

Oh wait...he had 2.

And he was our best 3pt shooter on the night.

Inexcusable for Walton to not have him out there. He ran a play where we got Bjelica a 3pt shot moving sideways off the dribble? How many of those has he made or even attempted this year? Zero?

If anyone played horribly last night, it was my boy Giles. He was just awful defensively and put forth no resistance in the paint.

 

[Gliesian]

And yet Bogi is only averaging 0.5TO less than Buddy per game. The sure and steady playmaker vs sir oopsalot.

There are a plethora of super star ball handlers out there that make more TOs than Buddy so I dont see your point. Bogdan is a ball handler that makes few TOs. Buddy is not a ball handler and still makes TOs.

 

[Gliesian]

Well, if his bad shots and isos don't count as basically turnovers, then maybe they should? Bogi's average at best at literally everything isn't going to cut it going forward. I can't believe some want to sign him to a big overpay while wanting to jettison Buddy to Philly at the first opportunity.

Next year is a disaster waiting to happen if they do that, in addition to a number of potential other losses.

Not sure who you're talking about, but yes, I'd count bad plays as TOs. Agree with your last paragraph.

 

[mac]

There are a plethora of super star ball handlers out there that make more TOs than Buddy so I dont see your point. Bogdan is a ball handler that makes few TOs. Buddy is not a ball handler and still makes TOs.

Edit:mods please move this to the Buddy thread as I replied here before the other Buddy posts were moved

I've debunked this argument before so I'm not gonna dig up the stats again. Others have done so as well. Look up their pick and roll handler turnover rate, usage rate, dribbles per touch, time per touch, time of possession. This blanket statement that Buddy is not a ballhandler/playmaker so his TO numbers are way worse than Bogi who is a ballhandler is simply not backed up by the facts.

If any of the advanced stats experts here want to chime in or correct me if I'm wrong I'm open to correction.

 

[kingdivac]

I watched the last 30s or so of the game so I only got a sliver to judge from; I first thought it was the usual offense for defense for Hield But Was mystified on the absence......you play percentages especially when sink or swim - that was confounding. But what bothered me the most was the lack of defense on Siakim at around 30s or so after a pick on Barnes. They may have played poorly earlier in the game, but they were there at the end. Bazemore gave Siakmi way too much room, and Holmes was too late - that was poor from your 2 best energy players. I could live with them forcing a kick and Toronto scoring, but they put up token resistance if that. Still it was a back-to-back - and obviously they played better than against the 6ers.

 

[dude12]

He's not equally as bad as a ball handler. Buddy is guaranteed to make 2 inexcusable TOs on routine plays. It surprises me if Bogdan turns it over at all. That's the biggest thing that will drive a coach insane.

And Buddy Hield shoots the sh*t out of the 3 point shot. If he’s on the floor at the end of the game, I would go so far as to say that Bjelica would have gotten a better shot. Teams have to account for the guy. As said before, a tactical mistake on Walton’s part

 

[Gliesian]

And Buddy Hield shoots the sh*t out of the 3 point shot. If he’s on the floor at the end of the game, I would go so far as to say that Bjelica would have gotten a better shot. Teams have to account for the guy. As said before, a tactical mistake on Walton’s part

Like I said in the game thread during the final minutes of the game, Walton made a mistake by not putting in Buddy.

 

[Gliesian]

Edit:mods please move this to the Buddy thread as I replied here before the other Buddy posts were moved

I've debunked this argument before so I'm not gonna dig up the stats again. Others have done so as well. Look up their pick and roll handler turnover rate, usage rate, dribbles per touch, time per touch, time of possession. This blanket statement that Buddy is not a ballhandler/playmaker so his TO numbers are way worse than Bogi who is a ballhandler is simply not backed up by the facts.

If any of the advanced stats experts here want to chime in or correct me if I'm wrong I'm open to correction.

Dude if u need advanced stats to massage out the argument that Buddy isn't a liability while handling the ball, I dunno what to tell ya. I'll grant you that yes, he's being used as a playmaker and I'm fine with that. I also want him to play and stay with the team. Buddy is simply a worse ball handler than Bogie and makes worse TOs. It's not rocket science. I'd appreciate if all this could be moved to the Buddy thread.

 

[mac]

Dude if u need advanced stats to massage out the argument that Buddy isn't a liability while handling the ball, I dunno what to tell ya. I'll grant you that yes, he's being used as a playmaker and I'm fine with that. I also want him to play and stay with the team. Buddy is simply a worse ball handler than Bogie and makes worse TOs. It's not rocket science. I'd appreciate if all this could be moved to the Buddy thread.

Not sure what has been massaged.. you're the one massaging facts by saying that Buddy is not a ballhandler and so his TO numbers are way worse than Bogi's. I'm bringing up the stats to show you why that premise isnt true.

Buddy being a worse ball handler than Bogi and making worse TOs is not the issue being debated. I have zero disagreements about that, and the fact that Buddy averages more TOs tells you that. What I am debating is the notion that Buddy is such a huge liability and guaranteed to turn the ball over (so much so that his minutes should be limited) while Bogi is such a good ballhandler that it's surprising when he turns the ball over.

 

[King Baller]

Kings lost a hard fought game to the Champs* That Pascal Siakam guy is pretty good!

I would have had Buddy in for that last play. You needed a three, that is what Buddy does.

 

[Gliesian]

Not sure what has been massaged.. you're the one massaging facts by saying that Buddy is not a ballhandler and so his TO numbers are way worse than Bogi's. I'm bringing up the stats to show you why that premise isnt true.

Buddy being a worse ball handler than Bogi and making worse TOs is not the issue being debated. I have zero disagreements about that, and the fact that Buddy averages more TOs tells you that. What I am debating is the notion that Buddy is such a huge liability and guaranteed to turn the ball over (so much so that his minutes should be limited) while Bogi is such a good ballhandler that it's surprising when he turns the ball over.

Ur right that he is a ball handler. But I never said his minutes should be limited. I'd like to try all 3 guards starting, but not sure if that's wise right now. For the record, Buddy and Bogdan are both players that you need to win a championship.

 

[hrdboild]

In fairness, when he's handling the ball he typically only has one passing option and that's all the way to weak side through 4 defenders. There are a few decent answers here to solve this. Number 1, run more MIDDLE pick and roll for Buddy, not to the corners. Number 2, use him more as a catch and shoot player as an outlet for De'Aaron Fox on pick and roll/drives. Or number 3, run more pick and pop through him with a guard, Barnes, or Bjelica sot it's a quick side pass if teams double or switch on him. Good teams are going to do exactly what the Raps did. They're going to force Buddy to make a play late in the clock and settle for Joseph shooting or continuously resetting pick and roll himself.

Yes! This guy/gal gets it. If I get you a Luke Walton mask do you think you could get yourself down to the sideline next game?

Luke is coaching to a system and not the players. Creativity and critical thinking is lacking.

Bingo! It's been true all year. Luke is getting positive results on defense and could be a pretty good assistant coach if he stuck to that but he's out of his depth with NBA offense right now and refuses to admit that the team's faults might rest on his shoulders. When players don't execute his offense they get benched but his offense hasn't worked anywhere. The Lakers were godawful on offense when he coached them too. I could get in the huddle and tell these guys to "play basketball" and "execute" and "just play looser" and "shoot, dribble, pass" or whatever he's telling them too but if you don't actually have plays to execute its meaningless.

Buddy averaging 45.7% from 3 and 100% FT post-all star. Need a 3? Walton be like screw that, he doesn't play defense and may turn the ball over.

Which is why Dedmon wanted out and why Buddy is all but demanding a trade himself right now. Different standards for different players. Regardless of context, if you can't put one of the top 5 shooters in the league in the game for a single possession where you need a three... what are we even doing here? Even Sir Charles would have gotten that right.

If you don't want Buddy handling the ball, that's on the coach. Devise a role where he's spotting up and playing to his strengths.

The idea you can't find a way to use the 3pt champ in a positive role is ludicrous. Notice a guy like Korver never heard complaints about foolish dribbling and passing. It's because his coaches along the way defined his role.

I many times don't know what Walton is watching.

Here's the big picture that Luke hasn't figured out yet, and it may ultimately cost him a chance at a coaching career: his whole offensive philosophy is built around "taking what the defense gives you" but right now, in the NBA, the best defensive teams are winning by dictating to the opposing offense which shots they get to take. By taking what the defense gives you you're actually playing right into their game plan. We set a pick and roll for Fox, the defender goes under the screen and Fox takes and misses a three. Was that really our best chance to score there? With Fox shooting 31% from three on the season and three 40% shooters around him? Buddy catches the ball on the wing with his body perpendicular to the basket and one of the bigs comes up to set a ball screen. The defense shows hard because they know Buddy is a threat to shoot. Now you have Buddy with a live dribble and no look at a basket forced into creating a passing angle to a moving big or a cross-court pass to the opposite corner with a defender in the way,? That's exactly what the defense wants you to do. We practiced this stuff in middle school. As the offense you want to create mismatches by playing to your strengths, getting your guys the ball where they have the best chances to score. Not every player is the same. If you have a shooter, run him off screens so all he has to do is catch and shoot. The whole jazz band improvisational thing is into our collective heads like a virus right now (sorry) and I cannot believe we're in the process of taking one of the best shooters ever and running him out of town. Luke sat on the sideline in Golden State and watched them run Steph and Klay around a half dozen screens on one play sometimes. Why can't he do that here? Could we maybe try running an actual playbook for a week or so and see what happens?

 

[hrdboild]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1236892726332805120

Of course he agrees, Grant has the basketball IQ of a turnip. His whole claim to fame is demonstrative enthusiasm. I've yet to hear him make a single intelligent read about basketball strategy and he's been watching the game front and center for decades.

 

[mac]

Yes! This guy/gal gets it. If I get you a Luke Walton mask do you think you could get yourself down to the sideline next game?



Bingo! It's been true all year. Luke is getting positive results on defense and could be a pretty good assistant coach if he stuck to that but he's out of his depth with NBA offense right now and refuses to admit that the team's faults might rest on his shoulders. When players don't execute his offense they get benched but his offense hasn't worked anywhere. The Lakers were godawful on offense when he coached them too. I could get in the huddle and tell these guys to "play basketball" and "execute" and "just play looser" and "shoot, dribble, pass" or whatever he's telling them too but if you don't actually have plays to execute its meaningless.



Which is why Dedmon wanted out and why Buddy is all but demanding a trade himself right now. Different standards for different players. Regardless of context, if you can't put one of the top 5 shooters in the league in the game for a single possession where you need a three... what are we even doing here? Even Sir Charles would have gotten that right.



Here's the big picture that Luke hasn't figured out yet, and it may ultimately cost him a chance at a coaching career: his whole offensive philosophy is built around "taking what the defense gives you" but right now, in the NBA, the best defensive teams are winning by dictating to the opposing offense which shots they get to take. By taking what the defense gives you you're actually playing right into their game plan. We set a pick and roll for Fox, the defender goes under the screen and Fox takes and misses a three. Was that really our best chance to score there? With Fox shooting 31% from three on the season and three 40% shooters around him? Buddy catches the ball on the wing with his body perpendicular to the basket and one of the bigs comes up to set a ball screen. The defense shows hard because they know Buddy is a threat to shoot. Now you have Buddy with a live dribble and no look at a basket forced into creating a passing angle to a moving big or a cross-court pass to the opposite corner with a defender in the way,? That's exactly what the defense wants you to do. We practiced this stuff in middle school. As the offense you want to create mismatches by playing to your strengths, getting your guys the ball where they have the best chances to score. Not every player is the same. If you have a shooter, run him off screens so all he has to do is catch and shoot. The whole jazz band improvisational thing is into our collective heads like a virus right now (sorry) and I cannot believe we're in the process of taking one of the best shooters ever and running him out of town. Luke sat on the sideline in Golden State and watched them run Steph and Klay around a half dozen screens on one play sometimes. Why can't he do that here? Could we maybe try running an actual playbook for a week or so and see what happens?

Well according to some he can be easily replaced by Malik Beasley so...

 

[Kingster]

Yea, let's reward the guys who have been digging holes for us instead!

Have YOU ever considered Walton's just isn't perfect and doesn't give Hield the same leash he gives others despite his production?

What are you talking about? The team played great. They weren't digging a hole. They were going stride for stride with the champs.

Hield doesn't deserve a long leash. He deserves to be yanked by a short choke chain until he gets a freaking clue. Instead of being peeved at Walton for not treating poor ol' Buddy right, I'm amazed that Walton has had the patience that he's had with him this year. To put up with with his brainless turnovers, absolutely stupid play for months, makes Walton look like Job in my book. I have great respect teachers who teach slow learners. The guy has bad hands (how many fumble-bumbles has he had this year?), he throws one-handed (ain't I cool) passes to wherever and whenever instead of simple two handed chest passes, and he has the brains of a turnip. When he had the game where he was rolling the ball up the floor and instead of picking it up after the half court line he nearly fumble-bumbled the ball out of bounds, that was simultaneously priceless and wince-worthy. The epitome of Buddy Hield. And all of the foregoing doesn't even cover his below average defense or his "I am great", 'show me the money,' "nobody wants to be on the Kings anyway, and "I love Philly" public relations fiascos that we've seen this past season. I did notice that he recently voluntarily shut his trap with the press, a good move considering the "me first" stuff that would come out of his mouth otherwise.

You're right, mac. Trade him. All the signs are there that he wants to be traded. So be nice and accommodate him. Win-win-win: Buddy gets what he wants, you get to smugly say that's what you get when comes back like like Tony Delk and scores 53 on the Kings, and I get what I want - Buddy Hield on another team. I never did miss Delk (or Marcus Thornton). And I wouldn't miss Buddy one freaking bit (See WCS), although I confess I might wistfully remember how he made me laugh during some games - all for the wrong reasons, of course. Hopefully, when Vlade and Walton make their decision at the end of the year Vlade can get another player like Bazemore out of the deal and this team will be better for it.

 

[jellyfish]

Well according to some he can be easily replaced by Malik Beasley so...

Why couldn't he? Beasley is what we wanted from Buddy/Mclemore in one player and he's still like 3-5 years younger than Buddy.

 

[The Effort Police]

What are you talking about? The team played great. They weren't digging a hole. They were going stride for stride with the champs.

Hield doesn't deserve a long leash. He deserves to be yanked by a short choke chain until he gets a freaking clue. Instead of being peeved at Walton for not treating poor ol' Buddy right, I'm amazed that Walton has had the patience that he's had with him this year. To put up with with his brainless turnovers, absolutely stupid play for months, makes Walton look like Job in my book. I have great respect teachers who teach slow learners. The guy has bad hands (how many fumble-bumbles has he had this year?), he throws one-handed (ain't I cool) passes to wherever and whenever instead of simple two handed chest passes, and he has the brains of a turnip. When he had the game where he was rolling the ball up the floor and instead of picking it up after the half court line he nearly fumble-bumbled the ball out of bounds, that was simultaneously priceless and wince-worthy. The epitome of Buddy Hield. And all of the foregoing doesn't even cover his below average defense or his "I am great", 'show me the money,' "nobody wants to be on the Kings anyway, and "I love Philly" public relations fiascos that we've seen this past season. I did notice that he recently voluntarily shut his trap with the press, a good move considering the "me first" stuff that would come out of his mouth otherwise.

You're right, mac. Trade him. All the signs are there that he wants to be traded. So be nice and accommodate him. Win-win-win: Buddy gets what he wants, you get to smugly say that's what you get when comes back like like Tony Delk and scores 53 on the Kings, and I get what I want - Buddy Hield on another team. I never did miss Delk (or Marcus Thornton). And I wouldn't miss Buddy one freaking bit (See WCS), although I confess I might wistfully remember how he made me laugh during some games - all for the wrong reasons, of course. Hopefully, when Vlade and Walton make their decision at the end of the year Vlade can get another player like Bazemore out of the deal and this team will be better for it.

It is absolutely amazing that you can type all this up and then in the same breath be one of the most diehard supporters of freakin' Bagley.

Even more amazing that you think filling this team with Bazemore types will be anything but a disaster.

 

[SacTownKid]

What are you talking about? The team played great. They weren't digging a hole. They were going stride for stride with the champs.

Hield doesn't deserve a long leash. He deserves to be yanked by a short choke chain until he gets a freaking clue. Instead of being peeved at Walton for not treating poor ol' Buddy right, I'm amazed that Walton has had the patience that he's had with him this year. To put up with with his brainless turnovers, absolutely stupid play for months, makes Walton look like Job in my book. I have great respect teachers who teach slow learners. The guy has bad hands (how many fumble-bumbles has he had this year?), he throws one-handed (ain't I cool) passes to wherever and whenever instead of simple two handed chest passes, and he has the brains of a turnip. When he had the game where he was rolling the ball up the floor and instead of picking it up after the half court line he nearly fumble-bumbled the ball out of bounds, that was simultaneously priceless and wince-worthy. The epitome of Buddy Hield. And all of the foregoing doesn't even cover his below average defense or his "I am great", 'show me the money,' "nobody wants to be on the Kings anyway, and "I love Philly" public relations fiascos that we've seen this past season. I did notice that he recently voluntarily shut his trap with the press, a good move considering the "me first" stuff that would come out of his mouth otherwise.

You're right, mac. Trade him. All the signs are there that he wants to be traded. So be nice and accommodate him. Win-win-win: Buddy gets what he wants, you get to smugly say that's what you get when comes back like like Tony Delk and scores 53 on the Kings, and I get what I want - Buddy Hield on another team. I never did miss Delk (or Marcus Thornton). And I wouldn't miss Buddy one freaking bit (See WCS), although I confess I might wistfully remember how he made me laugh during some games - all for the wrong reasons, of course. Hopefully, when Vlade and Walton make their decision at the end of the year Vlade can get another player like Bazemore out of the deal and this team will be better for it.

Interesting take on Buddy for sure. I made the same mistake with Peja back in the day then proceeded to watch a franchise struggle to fill that same position off an on for more than a decade. I'm just glad the league wasn't the shooters league back then that it is now. I can only imagine how untouchable a player like Peja could be now.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Interesting take on Buddy for sure. I made the same mistake with Peja back in the day then proceeded to watch a franchise struggle to fill that same position off an on for more than a decade. I'm just glad the league wasn't the shooters league back then that it is now. I can only imagine how untouchable a player like Peja could be now.

Prime Peja would be no lower than 2nd team All-NBA today, and only cause Giannis is listed at F. Don’t @me.

 

[mac]

What are you talking about? The team played great. They weren't digging a hole. They were going stride for stride with the champs.

Hield doesn't deserve a long leash. He deserves to be yanked by a short choke chain until he gets a freaking clue. Instead of being peeved at Walton for not treating poor ol' Buddy right, I'm amazed that Walton has had the patience that he's had with him this year. To put up with with his brainless turnovers, absolutely stupid play for months, makes Walton look like Job in my book. I have great respect teachers who teach slow learners. The guy has bad hands (how many fumble-bumbles has he had this year?), he throws one-handed (ain't I cool) passes to wherever and whenever instead of simple two handed chest passes, and he has the brains of a turnip. When he had the game where he was rolling the ball up the floor and instead of picking it up after the half court line he nearly fumble-bumbled the ball out of bounds, that was simultaneously priceless and wince-worthy. The epitome of Buddy Hield. And all of the foregoing doesn't even cover his below average defense or his "I am great", 'show me the money,' "nobody wants to be on the Kings anyway, and "I love Philly" public relations fiascos that we've seen this past season. I did notice that he recently voluntarily shut his trap with the press, a good move considering the "me first" stuff that would come out of his mouth otherwise.

You're right, mac. Trade him. All the signs are there that he wants to be traded. So be nice and accommodate him. Win-win-win: Buddy gets what he wants, you get to smugly say that's what you get when comes back like like Tony Delk and scores 53 on the Kings, and I get what I want - Buddy Hield on another team. I never did miss Delk (or Marcus Thornton). And I wouldn't miss Buddy one freaking bit (See WCS), although I confess I might wistfully remember how he made me laugh during some games - all for the wrong reasons, of course. Hopefully, when Vlade and Walton make their decision at the end of the year Vlade can get another player like Bazemore out of the deal and this team will be better for it.

Sometimes I wonder if you even watch the games. No idea who was digging a hole? Are you even being serious? Your genius coach Walton himself alluded to the slow starts in 1st and 3rd. Your Wonderboy Fox said the same. The kings were down 12 in the first quarter before the bench evened it out. 3rd quarter, we fall behind by 10 in the first 3 minutes after starting down 1. Wizards game - we start the 3rd up 76-49. Know the score when Buddy Hield was subbed in? 82-69. Yes, the starters managed to give up a 20-6 run all without a single brain fart from Buddy. Pistons game - know the score when Buddy and rest of bench entered the game? 18-1 Pistons. Without a single brain fart from Buddy. Sixers game - Baze first off the bench with us down 10 midway through the 1st. Buddy comes in with 4min to go and down 8. We close strong to end the quarter down 2. 3rd quarter we start down 10, by the time Buddy comes in we're down 14. At the end of the day these are team wins and losses, but please don't act like the starters have been playing so well and only Buddy should be yanked by a choke chain.

 

[VF21]

MOD NOTE: To all those arguing pro/con Buddy: Keep it civil. Thanks. You can disagree without resorting to insults, demeaning personal comments, etc. If you can't, you'll be locked out of the thread.