Bosh asks fans where he should go

[pdxKingsFan]

You also have to take into account that Sacramento is the smallest pro market in California and with the exception of the glory years has commanded next to zero major national attention. Indianapolis at least owns their state and Denver a significant chunk of the midwest.

 

[bajaden]

Bosh = pipe dream

Just what the hell is a pipe dream anyway?

 

[bajaden]

Sacramento is the 16th largest media market in the nation, making it larger than half the other markets out there including places like Indianapolis, Denver, etc..

Sacramento is NOT a BIG city market, i.e. NY, LA, Chicago, etc. But it's NOT a small market team either, i.e. OKC, SLC, etc.

Quit having a small market attitude about this franchise.

Smills mi amigo. I was responding to another poster and I was defending sacramento's market share, not criticizing it. I was simply listing some teams that are precieved to be big markets, when if fact they're smaller than Sacramento.

 

[The Hammer]

but yeah we're still a small market without much to offer in a sign and trade. but if bosh is looking to sign somewhere straight up if the S&T prospects fall through, i don't see why Sacramento couldn't be on the short list

We're not actually that small of a market. Plus, we're a one sport town. We are the perfect destination for Bosh. I think we'll get him.

 

[The Hammer]

Perception is reality in cases such as these. You could be the largest city in the world, but if all the free agents think of you as small market, then your free agent pull is small market, regardless of reality.

Not really. If you have an intelligent agent that understands the financial value of the size of markets and their endorsements, and who will be be benefitting from said endorsements, then you'll a player who understands what that means, in numbers.

Size of media markets = size of extra endorsement money. That's pretty much the formula. However, you could argue that this might play into national endorsements and TV time, but that argument kind of crumbles when you realize how many nationally televised games the Kings had in the glory years.

 

[The Hammer]

Where do you get your info? I used Arbitron's market data for 2008 and came up with Sacramento at #27.

You also can factor into that that we are a one sport town.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

If Bosh were debating between Sacramento and another small market it would be one thing, but the other cities up for discussion are higher profile. New York and the soon to be Brooklyn Nets are NY. Houston and Miami bring with them ginormous tax advantages. Houston also brings in a huge overseas market thanks to Yao. I don't understand why people are getting so defensive about this small market thing. A week ago half the board had their panties in a wad about how our market size was going to cost us Tyreke's ROY, now we're bigger than half the league.

 

[jon e]

remember this?

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archi...h_jack_stave_off_sacramento_fans_recruitment/

 

[bajaden]

If Bosh were debating between Sacramento and another small market it would be one thing, but the other cities up for discussion are higher profile. New York and the soon to be Brooklyn Nets are NY. Houston and Miami bring with them ginormous tax advantages. Houston also brings in a huge overseas market thanks to Yao. I don't understand why people are getting so defensive about this small market thing. A week ago half the board had their panties in a wad about how our market size was going to cost us Tyreke's ROY, now we're bigger than half the league.

Look, I know the odd's are slim. But but it doesn't hurt to try. And remember, this discussion is about a sign and trade. Your throwing the Knicks and the Nets out there because they have a lot of cap space. In a sign and trade thats not the issue. The issue is what player do they have that Toronto would want back in a sign and trade. The Knicks are left with Chandler and Gallinari. And not much else. And if they give up one of those players to get Bosh, how much better is that going to make them and why would Bosh want to go to a team depleted of talent, and only a promise to fix it once he's in the fold. The Nets are in a similar position with Yi. All Miami has is Beasley for a trading chip, and he's not in great demand around the league.

So the first order of business is to offer someone thats better than what they could get elsewhere. And remember that player would also have to be young, and cheap. If you can get Toronto on board your halfway there. Maybe its the easy half, but it would be a start. Then it would be up to the Maloof's to sell the idea to Bosh. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But its worth a try.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Look, I know the odd's are slim. But but it doesn't hurt to try.

I've never been against trying, I'm just pointing out this "we're not a small market" line is a bunch of BS because it is. However I strongly disagree with your belief that Toronto has any say where he goes. I've never heard of a sign and trade where the player went to a team he didn't want to go to, have you? If Bosh says he wants to go to NY or the Nets, make a trade or I sign the smaller contract who do you think blinks first?

 

[PurpleHaze]

Chris Bosh is not coming to Sacramento no matter how much wishful thinking goes on. Okay, maybe there's a 1%-3% chance.

In Dallas the local media/boards are going nuts trying to figure out how to lure him there - now more than ever if Dirk departs by opting out of final year of his contract. Bosh was born in Dallas and was a big time high school athlete in that city. I suppose if Cuban is able to keep Dirk and jetison most of the rest of his team he might dream of teaming such a duo of great big men. No doubt Dirk desperately needs another true superstar beside him in the frontcourt which he's never really had. I suppose only real superstar he's played with was Nash but Cuban couldn't grasp it as the silly rah-rah sports team owner dunce he is - not an actual skilled, experienced NBA GM.

 

[Prince_XY]

Chris Bosh is not coming to Sacramento no matter how much wishful thinking goes on. Okay, maybe there's a 1%-3% chance.

In Dallas the local media/boards are going nuts trying to figure out how to lure him there - now more than ever if Dirk departs by opting out of final year of his contract. Bosh was born in Dallas and was a big time high school athlete in that city. I suppose if Cuban is able to keep Dirk and jetison most of the rest of his team he might dream of teaming such a duo of great big men. No doubt Dirk desperately needs another true superstar beside him in the frontcourt which he's never really had. I suppose only real superstar he's played with was Nash but Cuban couldn't grasp it as the silly rah-rah sports team owner dunce he is - not an actual skilled, experienced NBA GM.

Correct me if I am wrong. Look at both teams performance for the last several years. Cuban's Mavericks team had reached the NBA FINALS and Maloofs/Petrie's Kings had never done that. Plus the fact that Dallas has been a playoff team for several years now and we are not.

I think Dallas had been making the better moves especially if you will compare them to the bottom-dweller Kings who has an experienced NBA GM in genius Petrie. IMO, that tells you something about Cuban as being a lot better in grasping NBA things.

BTW, I don't think Bosh is a Superstar yet. I wouldn't lose a single night of sleep if he does not go to Sacramento. IMO, in a few years and if we get lucky, Thompson ( or even Hawes if he will change his mentality ) could still turn out into a player better than Bosh.

 

[Bricklayer]

IMO, in a few years and if we get lucky, Thompson ( or even Hawes if he will change his mentality ) could still turn out into a player better than Bosh.

I had assumed that unfortunate line of thought was gone by now. Bosh is a Top 5 PF in the league. A Top 15 player. And no, we do not happen to have a big of that talent level currently on our roster. In fact in 25 years of Kings basketball we have had exactly one (1) big at Chris Bosh's talent level. They don't grow on trees.

 

[William Blake]

One of the things that always surprised me about this board is how high you're all on him.
I don't have a clear opinion on the guy but here in Italy most of the knowledgeable NBA fans that I know (and for knowledgeable I mean people that actually watch games) consider him a cancerous black hole on offense and a soft defender, but maybe they're just jealous beacause he takes away shots from Bargnani.

 

[Bricklayer]

One of the things that always surprised me about this board is how high you're all on him.
I don't have a clear opinion on the guy but here in Italy most of the knowledgeable NBA fans that I know (and for knowledgeable I mean people that actually watch games) consider him a cancerous black hole on offense and a soft defender, but maybe they're just jealous beacause he takes away shots from Bargnani.

Having been through the Peja and Hedo years on this board I'm afraid its all too easy to believe your last surmise is the truth of it.

Except the soft defense that is -- that is the well known Achilles. But given that I don't think that the Raptors played a single possession of good defense for the entire decade, I would be interested to see what a change of environment might do for Bosh. There is no way he would ever be anybody's anchor, but how would his defense be if he was actually part of a franchise that stressed and valued it?

 

[Kevin's Good Feet]

I think Dallas had been making the better moves especially if you will compare them to the bottom-dweller Kings who has an experienced NBA GM in genius Petrie. IMO, that tells you something about Cuban as being a lot better in grasping NBA things.

It's surprisingly easy to remain relevant (playoffs) in the NBA if you have a superstar or near superstar (Dirk) and don't mind paying a lot of money. It requires almost no thought, just go after the biggest name available which you can get like what Cuban did with Kidd and Butler.

He didn't turn around the franchise from the bottom of the league by himself. He had guys like Nelson getting the talent that made it possible (Dirk, Nash), he just needed to foot the bill.

He has made a lot of colossally bad decisions (refusing to pay Nash and then giving the same money to Dampier, Kidd, maybe even the Butler trade, the Jamison/Antoine Walker year) which end up not hurting the franchise because he doesn't mind paying obscene money for an underachieving roster.

 

[Prince_XY]

I had assumed that unfortunate line of thought was gone by now. Bosh is a Top 5 PF in the league. A Top 15 player. And no, we do not happen to have a big of that talent level currently on our roster. In fact in 25 years of Kings basketball we have had exactly one (1) big at Chris Bosh's talent level. They don't grow on trees.

Right now, you are right we do not have a big of a talent level on our roster. That is why I said:
"I don't think Bosh is a Superstar yet. I wouldn't lose a single night of sleep if he does not go to Sacramento. IMO, in a few years and if we get lucky, Thompson ( or even Hawes if he will change his mentality ) could still turn out into a player better than Bosh."

Don't get me wrong. I would like to have Bosh in this team, but I wouldn't lose a single night of sleep if we don't get him. IMO, Thompson is developing nicely. I just compared Thompson's stats and Bosh's and they look similar. I also remember Bosh also made silly mistakes like Thompson during his 1st and 2nd year in the NBA. And Thompson looked like the harder worker compared to Bosh.

BTW, if we get Favors or Cousins, then definitely I wouldn't like to overpay for Bosh, especially with the kind of defense he is known for. Bosh would surely delay the development of our young bigs.

 

[Prince_XY]

It's surprisingly easy to remain relevant (playoffs) in the NBA if you have a superstar or near superstar (Dirk) and don't mind paying a lot of money. It requires almost no thought, just go after the biggest name available which you can get like what Cuban did with Kidd and Butler.

He didn't turn around the franchise from the bottom of the league by himself. He had guys like Nelson getting the talent that made it possible (Dirk, Nash), he just needed to foot the bill.

He has made a lot of colossally bad decisions (refusing to pay Nash and then giving the same money to Dampier, Kidd, maybe even the Butler trade, the Jamison/Antoine Walker year) which end up not hurting the franchise because he doesn't mind paying obscene money for an underachieving roster.

This makes Cuban/Dallas GM even better than the Maloofs/Petrie. Both made mistakes, but at least Dallas still managed to get to the NBA finals and then stay competitive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Dallas made the NBA finals when Nash was all gone?

So, how could you say the refusal to pay Nash was a colossal mistake?

 

[mac]

Right now, you are right we do not have a big of a talent level on our roster. That is why I said:
"I don't think Bosh is a Superstar yet. I wouldn't lose a single night of sleep if he does not go to Sacramento. IMO, in a few years and if we get lucky, Thompson ( or even Hawes if he will change his mentality ) could still turn out into a player better than Bosh."

Don't get me wrong. I would like to have Bosh in this team, but I wouldn't lose a single night of sleep if we don't get him. IMO, Thompson is developing nicely. I just compared Thompson's stats and Bosh's and they look similar. I also remember Bosh also made silly mistakes like Thompson during his 1st and 2nd year in the NBA. And Thompson looked like the harder worker compared to Bosh.

BTW, if we get Favors or Cousins, then definitely I wouldn't like to overpay for Bosh, especially with the kind of defense he is known for. Bosh would surely delay the development of our young bigs.

If Jason Thompson becomes a better player than Bosh I will s*** in my pants. But I think the chances of that happening are really really really small, about as much as the chances that Don Nelson will win a championship with the Warriors in the next 3 years.

Forgive my cynicism but there is no way IMO that Thompson will even be able to match Bosh's level of play. This isn't taking anything away from JT - he has been improving and will become a solid player in the league. But as some have already mentioned Chris Bosh is one of the top PFs in the league at the moment, and one of the top players as well. Who would you take at PF ahead of Bosh if given a choice? Dirk maybe, Gasol (who's not really a PF but whatever)... I can't think of anyone else I'd rather have at PF.

All that said, I'm with you on not losing sleep over not getting Bosh. We need a quality frontcourt, and at the moment Bosh isn't the only option to achieving that, especially if we draft Cousins or Favors. He may however, be a possible piece to get us over the hump in the future.

 

[KingsFanFromItaly]

I think that if you have just one opportunity to sign Bosh, you have to go for it. Is one of the best 3/4 PF in the league right now, no doubt about it. And even if he is considered a soft defender, I wouldn't be so worried about it. If you look at Bosh's defense, you also have to consider his team and his teammates. He plays for the Raptors, one of the worst defenseve team of the league. Who is a defender there? Turkoglu? No. Bargnani? No. Calderon? Not even close. But, I also believe that if he changes environment, and he plays in a team with a different attitude, he has the potential to be an ok defender. Not great, but ok.
The Kings are trying to create this tough and defensive mentality. So, let's assume we draft Cousins. We already have Evans, who is a great defender. Then you have Landry, Casspi, Nocioni, even Greene (he has a great body to play D, if he really wants to). If you put Bosh in this mix, it could really work out. And if it does, you are a contender right now.

I know that we have 0,001% of chances of landing Bosh, but sometimes good players decides to leave their teams and sign with young teams with potential. When Joe Johnson left the Suns, he signed with the Hawks who went 16-66 the year before. So, you never know what could happen...

 

[Kevin's Good Feet]

This makes Cuban/Dallas GM even better than the Maloofs/Petrie. Both made mistakes, but at least Dallas still managed to get to the NBA finals and then stay competitive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Dallas made the NBA finals when Nash was all gone?

So, how could you say the refusal to pay Nash was a colossal mistake?

So because Cuban had the luxury of having a superstar (which the Kings didn't have) and the ability to just toss money down an endless pit (which the Kings couldn't do), Dallas/Cuban is somehow more shrewd than the Kings?

Are you saying that refusing to pay Steve Nash almost entirely for financial considerations, and then a few weeks later throwing $70 million at Erick Dampier is also a shrewd move? Sure, you could make the argument that Nash was poor defensively and you don't want to throw a bunch of money at an old PG on the wrong side of 30, but then that makes the Jason Kidd trade and extension even more stupid.

I'll buy the argument that Petrie made a lot of lateral moves and wasted one of the only assets we did have each offseason (MLE), but lets not pretend that both organizations operate under the same considerations and have the same resources.

 

[Kingster]

Except the soft defense that is -- that is the well known Achilles. But given that I don't think that the Raptors played a single possession of good defense for the entire decade, I would be interested to see what a change of environment might do for Bosh. There is no way he would ever be anybody's anchor, but how would his defense be if he was actually part of a franchise that stressed and valued it?

Are you talking about Kevin Martin?

 

[Bricklayer]

Are you talking about Kevin Martin?

Probably a hopeless case there. But Battier seemed none too amused and determined to get Kevin with the program, so I guess we'll see -- might be his last best chance to shed his rep.

 

[JB_kings]

Yeah the Mavs did make the finals in '06. But don't also forget that they have had a reputation for blowing up in the playoffs since then. First round losses to the Hornets, Warriors, Spurs this year and a second round loss to the Nugz last year. It wasn't like they were battling with and getting kicked out by the Lakers every year.

 

[bajaden]

I've never been against trying, I'm just pointing out this "we're not a small market" line is a bunch of BS because it is. However I strongly disagree with your belief that Toronto has any say where he goes. I've never heard of a sign and trade where the player went to a team he didn't want to go to, have you? If Bosh says he wants to go to NY or the Nets, make a trade or I sign the smaller contract who do you think blinks first?

Please try reading what I wrote, instead of jumping to conclusions about what you think I'm saying. I never once said that Toronto had the power to determine where he went. Thats ultimately up to Bosh. But in a sign and trade Toronto is the team thats going to recieve a player back in return. I think they do have a say in who they might want that player to be. Thats why I said it was a two part deal. First you have to make an offer that Toronto would be interested in. Then if would be up to the Kings to convince Bosh that Sacramento is a good destination for him. If they can't do it, then Toronto moves on to the next best deal.

As far as who blinks first. If I'm Toronto and neither the Knicks or the Nets have a player that I'm interested in, then I tell Bosh to walk. Why would I take on a salary of a player I don't want just so Bosh can get another year on his contract. If Bosh wants to throw away another year at 20 mil a year and gamble that the new CBA won't restrict salaries in the future, more power to him, and goodbye.. If Bosh really wants the extra year for big bucks then the word compromise springs to mind. A sign and trade in this instance is a I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine. There has to be something in it for both parties.

 

[Rookie]

This makes Cuban/Dallas GM even better than the Maloofs/Petrie. Both made mistakes, but at least Dallas still managed to get to the NBA finals and then stay competitive.

So if Webber didn't get hurt but if it was Dirk instead..the Cuban/Dallas GM would still be able to keep thier team competitive? I highly doubt it.

The only mistakes Maloofs made was not letting Petrie call the shot and didn't rebuild early.

Anyway, we'll see how well he does because Dirk time is getting very short. If he can continue to keep Dallas as a contender when Dirk's out then I would agreed with you. But for now, he's lucky he still got Dirk.

Personally I would think they be better with keeping Nash and Finley. Adding a defensive player would of made them more solid.

 

[Superman]

The above was a clean explanation of why players agree to sign and trades. If they sign elsewhere they can only take a 5 year contract. If they resign with the home team and get traded (S&T) they can sign for 6 years (because its their home team) but still get to go to antoher team. Can mean another $20mil in guaranteed money, which ain't chump change.

Not only is it an extra year, it's a higher maximum salary, since the annual raises in a Bird contract can be up to 10.5%, whereas they are a maximum of 8% for non-Bird contracts. So a five year sign-and-trade contract that starts at $15 million a year could be worth a total of $92.5 million, but a five year contract to a new team would be worth $88 million.

 

[bajaden]

If Jason Thompson becomes a better player than Bosh I will s*** in my pants. But I think the chances of that happening are really really really small, about as much as the chances that Don Nelson will win a championship with the Warriors in the next 3 years.

Forgive my cynicism but there is no way IMO that Thompson will even be able to match Bosh's level of play. This isn't taking anything away from JT - he has been improving and will become a solid player in the league. But as some have already mentioned Chris Bosh is one of the top PFs in the league at the moment, and one of the top players as well. Who would you take at PF ahead of Bosh if given a choice? Dirk maybe, Gasol (who's not really a PF but whatever)... I can't think of anyone else I'd rather have at PF.

All that said, I'm with you on not losing sleep over not getting Bosh. We need a quality frontcourt, and at the moment Bosh isn't the only option to achieving that, especially if we draft Cousins or Favors. He may however, be a possible piece to get us over the hump in the future.

Just for reference sake. Most of the revelant PF's around the league, listed by most PPG.

Nowitzki: 25.0 PPG - 7.7 RPG - 1.0 BPG - 11 years in the league

Bosh: 24.0 PPG - 10.8 RPG - 1.0 BPG - 6 years in the league

Stoudemire: 23.1 PPG - 8.9 RPG - 1.0 BPG - 8 years in the league

Z. Randolph: 20.8 PPG - 11.7 RPG - 0.4 BPG - 8 years in the league

D. Lee: 20.2 PPG - 11.7 RPG - 0.4 BPG - 4 years in the league

Boozer: 19.5 PPG - 11.2 RPG - 0.5 BPG - 7 years in the league

D. West: 19.0 PPG - 7.5 RPG - 0.7 BPG - 7 years in the league

P. Gasol: 18.3 PPG - 11.3 RPG - 1.7 BPG - 9 years in the league

L. Aldridge: 17.9 PPG - 8.0 RPG - 0.6 BPG - 4 years in the league

A. Jefferson: 17.1 PPG - 9.3 RPG - 1.3 BPG - 6 years in the league

J. Smith: 15.7 PPG - 8.7 RPG - 2.1 BPG - 5 years in the league

J. Green: 15.1 PPG - 6.0 RPG - 0.9 BPG - 3 years in the league

Beasley: 14.3 PPG - 6.4 RPG - 0.6 BPG - 2 years in the league

Millsap: 13.7 PPG - 6.9 RPG - 1.2 BPG - 4 years in the league

Brand: 13.1 PPG - 6.1 RPG - 1.1 BPG - 11 years in the league

Thompson: 12.5 PPG - 8.5 RPG - 1.0 BPG - 2 years in the league

Villanueva: 11.9 PPG - 4.7 RPG - 0.7 BPG - 4 years in the league

K. Martin: 11.5 PPG - 9.4 RPG - 1.1 BPG - 9 years in the league

Haslem: 9.9 PPG - 8.1 RPG - 0.3 BPG - 6 years in the league

Varejao: 8.6 PPG - 7.6 RPG - 0.9 BPG - 5 years in the league


I may have missed a couple, but this is the majority of the main PF's. Kind of funny. Thompson's stats don't look that bad when you look at the overall picture, and consider that he's only been in the league 2 years. If he can improve by 2.5 points, and 1.5 rebounds a game, and play better defense, I'll be happy by the end of his third year.

As one can see, Bosh is clearly in the top five of all the PF's. Josh Smith would appear to be the best defender of the group. And Atlanta does play pretty good team defense.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Please try reading what I wrote, instead of jumping to conclusions about what you think I'm saying. I never once said that Toronto had the power to determine where he went. Thats ultimately up to Bosh. But in a sign and trade Toronto is the team thats going to recieve a player back in return. I think they do have a say in who they might want that player to be. Thats why I said it was a two part deal. First you have to make an offer that Toronto would be interested in. Then if would be up to the Kings to convince Bosh that Sacramento is a good destination for him. If they can't do it, then Toronto moves on to the next best deal.

As far as who blinks first. If I'm Toronto and neither the Knicks or the Nets have a player that I'm interested in, then I tell Bosh to walk. Why would I take on a salary of a player I don't want just so Bosh can get another year on his contract. If Bosh wants to throw away another year at 20 mil a year and gamble that the new CBA won't restrict salaries in the future, more power to him, and goodbye.. If Bosh really wants the extra year for big bucks then the word compromise springs to mind. A sign and trade in this instance is a I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine. There has to be something in it for both parties.

I did read what you wrote, but I just don't think Toronto is playing from a position of any strength here and we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

First you have to make an offer that Toronto would be interested in. Then if would be up to the Kings to convince Bosh that Sacramento is a good destination for him.

My understanding is it works the other way around - first we convince Bosh to play here at a max deal, then he turns to Toronto and asks them to work a S&T so he gets a little higher salary and they don't lose him empty handed.

 

[SacKings7]

Yeah I agree with you pdx, I think that's usually how it works. The player decides where he'd like to go, and then usually asks the team to work on a S&T. At least that's how I always thought it worked.

Sorry to nitpick bajaden, but I couldn't help but notice you made a list of relevant PF's and didn't even include the 2 best PF's of the past decade, Duncan and Garnett

For the record, their stats:

Duncan: 17.9 PPG - 10.1 RPG - 1.5BPG - 12 years

Garnett: 14.3 PPG - 7.3 RPG - 0.8 BPG - 14 years

Thanks for the list btw, I didn't realize Thompson's numbers actually compared pretty decent to the rest of the league