Bee: Frustration reigns after loss to Minnesota

[kennadog]

Have you ever had a previous boss who let things get lax and then a new guy takes over and holds you and your fellow employees accountable and makes you do your job? Your comfort zone is taken away? How do you or did you respond? Did you quit, pout, go into a funk, become a workplace cancer with other feloow employees who think that the new boss is an a** because...because...oh, just because....

Actually, I had it happen the other way around. I have absolutely no problem with expecting people to be held accountable. There are some ways to do that, though, that work better than others. Very public criticism or embarrassment is not appropriate "consequences" to me.

I don't like goofing off employees, not getting the job done, but neither would I want to work in a place where the boss was regularly and publicly humiliating and criticizing people around me. What if you are his star employee and you still get publicly humiliated or criticized in front of everybody? Constructive criticism most people will accept, if you don't humiliate them in the process and if that person has come to respect your opinion.

By the way, I did not say "punishment" doesn't work. It does, but it tends to be effective only in the short term. In the, long run you want a person to do a good job, because they want to ("buying in"), not because they want to avoid punishment. That's what leadership is about.

One thing is true, if a player is determined to be a problem no matter how they are treated, because they are ultimately selfish, then GP will have to help by moving that player, if at all possible.

 

[Kingster]

We know enough to realize that the players are already starting to complain. And when it's so obvious that Sam Amick leads a story with it, it's worth discussing.

I have been a strong supporter of Reggie Theus and hope this blows over, but let's not pretend he's above criticism, okay?

Kevin Martin did not deserve the treatment he got tonight. And I have no problem at all in saying so. And whether or not Reggie Theus knows 10 times as much about basketball as I do doesn't mean a thing.

And just what was this "treatment"? Did he make insulting references to Kevin's mother? Did he publicly berate him? Poor, pooooooor Kevin. He's sooo abused. The coach pulled him out of the game because he didn't like what he was doing on the floor. Probably his defense. Big whoop. What do you want Theus to do - enter into group therapy with Kevin to make sure his self esteem wasn't damaged? Kevin has got to learn that scoring isn't the "be all-end all" of basketball - winning is. And that means you've got to play the "right way", not "Kevin's way."

 

[kennadog]

Give me a break! It was inevitable. Losing begets griping. And lousy talent begets losing. Now we're getting Muss redux. Everybody is blaming Theus for the frustrations, immaturity, and inadequecy of this team. GET OVER IT. Back up the coach. This chain of events was so predictable I wish I could I could have bet on this scenario at Las Vegas. Would have made a bundle. It's old "blame it on the coach" routine. Kevin's defense has been crap. They even mentioned that in the post game, a not-so-subtle reference to the displeasure of Theus. SAME THING THAT HAPPENED WITH MUSSELMAN. What do you want Theus to do - stand their like a light post and let Martin play crappy D? As with Salmons, Martin has got to grow up. This is obviously a trend. The offensive star who thinks it's good enough to score but not to play D. Well, it's not. And I, for one, is thankful that Theus has the cajones to do something about it, and this comes from a guy who didn't want Theus in the first place.

I'm all for holding players responsible, being consistent, not giving "star" tratment to anyone and being firm. It's all in the execution. It's about how go about enforcing the rules. Ultimately, you can't lead if no one wants to follow you.

It is early and I'm certainly not putting all the blame on Theus. However, he is the one being paid to manage the players and Theus knew what he had coming in. This team isn't good, which will lead to frustration. Hopefully, things will smooth out so coach and players are on the same page, working together, instead of against each other. Otherwise, everyone loses.

 

[dude12]

Actually, I had it happen the other way around. I have absolutely no problem with expecting people to be held accountable. There are some ways to do that, though, that work better than others. Very public criticism or embarrassment is not appropriate "consequences" to me.

I don't like goofing off employees, not getting the job done, but neither would I want to work in a place where the boss was regularly and publicly humiliating and criticizing people around me. What if you are his star employee and you still get publicly humiliated or criticized in front of everybody? Constructive criticism most people will accept, if you don't humiliate them in the process and if that person has come to respect your opinion.

By the way, I did not say "punishment" doesn't work. It does, but it tends to be effective only in the short term. In the, long run you want a person to do a good job, because they want to ("buying in"), not because they want to avoid punishment. That's what leadership is about.

One thing is true, if a player is determined to be a problem no matter how they are treated, because they are ultimately selfish, then GP will have to help by moving that player, if at all possible.

I agree that in the long run if Theus continues in this style then it would eventually run its course. 7 or games is not long term. I feel as if he's eased up already in pulling guys. Remember the Dallas road game? Guys were getting yanked right and left. It's already been toned down. As far as KMart, nobody knows what that was all about. I'm sure that Theus had a valid reason for it. We don't have to agree with it. KMart doesn't have to agree with it....but I would expect KMart to respond to his "benching". Respond positively. I don't see any public humiliation of KMart going on.

 

[dude12]

Give me a break! It was inevitable. Losing begets griping. And lousy talent begets losing. Now we're getting Muss redux. Everybody is blaming Theus for the frustrations, immaturity, and inadequecy of this team. GET OVER IT. Back up the coach. This chain of events was so predictable I wish I could I could have bet on this scenario at Las Vegas. Would have made a bundle. It's old "blame it on the coach" routine. Kevin's defense has been crap. They even mentioned that in the post game, a not-so-subtle reference to the displeasure of Theus. SAME THING THAT HAPPENED WITH MUSSELMAN. What do you want Theus to do - stand their like a light post and let Martin play crappy D? As with Salmons, Martin has got to grow up. This is obviously a trend. The offensive star who thinks it's good enough to score but not to play D. Well, it's not. And I, for one, is thankful that Theus has the cajones to do something about it, and this comes from a guy who didn't want Theus in the first place.

I agree with everything in this post....everything! Personally, if guys can't step up and get the job done.....get off the floor. I'm all for Theus' handling of the team so far. He wants to go Jerry Sloan on guys, fine by me. Ask yourselves, how many of these guys on our team could play for Jerry Sloan or Popovich?

The thought process of Theus having to earn his stripes so that he can coach in this vain makes me want to vomit.

 

[discocricket]

This may be simplistic, but for me, part of this loss (and the future losses with minute issues) is/are on Petrie. It was mentioned upthread but the players on this team just don't fit well together, and that falls primarily on the GM, especially with veteran players. Petrie made the fateful choice to draft wing shooters 3 drafts in a row. The Douby pick in particular looks pretty specious now; his minutes could be relieving the PT pressure between Cisco, Salmons, Martin, and Artest. Needless to say the Mikki Moore signing looks absolutely atrocious, as many declared when it occurred. How do you go and sign a guy who's been just hanging on throughout his career, who duplicates what we already have, who has likely on the downside of his career to that deal? Salmons looks like a good signing, if you don't look at the PT crunch. I know, I know, trades can't happen without both GMs agreeing. But valuewise, if you're a GM, would you rather have the Minny roster, the Seattle roster, the Atlanta roster (other bad teams)? I would. They have young guys with trade value, upside, and playing time. We have old guys with no trade value and several youngsters whose development (and therefore trade value) is being stunted by the minute crunch.

Think about it: for the last season and a half we've been focused on trading Bibby. Is Bibby's PT/chemistry with Ron/play even the third most pressing issue now? Here's my list:

1) Worst 4-spot rotation in the NBA, little hope for improvement
2) Unmovable long term deals, little hope for improvement
3) Minute crunch with wing positions
4) all things Ron
5) Bibby?

/rant. I'm depressed now.

 

[VF21]

And just what was this "treatment"? Did he make insulting references to Kevin's mother? Did he publicly berate him? Poor, pooooooor Kevin. He's sooo abused. The coach pulled him out of the game because he didn't like what he was doing on the floor. Probably his defense. Big whoop. What do you want Theus to do - enter into group therapy with Kevin to make sure his self esteem wasn't damaged? Kevin has got to learn that scoring isn't the "be all-end all" of basketball - winning is. And that means you've got to play the "right way", not "Kevin's way."

What do I want Theus to do? I want him to acknowledge that he's a rookie coach and may make mistakes.

You want to see a Sloan-coached team? Go to Utah.

Reggie has NOT earned enough respect yet - which is only right considering the short period of time he's been here - to act like he's Jerry Sloan or Gregg Popovich. He doesn't have the credentials, on or off the court, to start acting as he did last night.

He should be working WITH the players. By my count, he's already got at least 6 of them upset with him. That is NOT how you win ballgames or improve franchises.

See how I responded without resorting to cheap sarcasm?

I love this team. I have since 1985. I've stood by them every single step of the way, through the highs and the lows, from the days when losing by less than 10 was a victory to the days when not winning by at least 10 was somehow not good enough.

I watched Reggie Theus the player win his first game as a Sacramento King IN PERSON. I've followed his career because I really liked him as a player and I also liked what he did at New Mexico State.

I firmly believe he's making some rookie NBA coach errors and I fear it will come back and bite him in the butt. And that will hurt my Kings.

We're already paying one guy not to coach the Kings. I don't want to see that increase to paying two guys not to coach the Kings.

Kevin Martin is one of the very few bright spots on the Kings right now. If Reggie alienates him he will also alienate a LARGE part of the fans who are still willing to pay the absurd prices for tickets. That's not homerism. That's a fact.

Theus can get his message across without turning into Musselman. At least I hope he can.

 

[Purple Reign]

One week ago, i asked about the team chemistry. http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23488

I basically was told that the team's chemistry is fine. Here are some samples:

BudWright said.....
"Well, I don't think the chemistry is bad. I wish you would have put an option that said that as well. The players haven't said anything this season to indicate this (unless I missed something)--I think just the opposite from what they ARE saying".

Dude12 said....
"I mean Theus' quick hooks are obviously ticking guys off but he's pulling anybody and everybody and doesn't seem to care who you are. He's treating all the same way....in other words, you need to produce".

6th said...
The thread title asks the question, "Did Anybody Notice the Terrible Bench Chemistry?" Then your poll goes on the ask the cause to the bad chemistry. You must have assumed we would answer your question with a yes.

VF21 said.....
I saw it. If you didn't, I don't know what to tell you. We have a lot of stuff to be concerned about right now; I honestly don't think team chemistry is among the top problems.

This is not to throw anybody under the bus or to say that I told you so, but until the chemistry on this team is addressed (whether it is the front office, the coach, the players, the fans or all the above) this team has no shot to compete. either this team was a mess a week ago or a lot has changed in 7 days. At least with everybody on the same page they have a chance to compete night after night.

I am 150 percent in support of Reggie Theus as the coach of the Sacramento Kings. But he has to learn that this is not New Mexico State. This league is about talent. There is no reason Salmons should not have been in that lineup last night playing 40 minutes. It is on Theus to get the balance back on this squad. To know who should play and who should not, and make sure those that are not playing will be ready to accept their roles, and if they don't THEY ARE GONE!!! It is that simple.

 

[Glenn]

Is there a kind of a standard length of time it takes a team to rebuild? Once a team has been up, when should we expect them to return to that lofty position - achieved exactly once since 1985, BTW

The most logical contract to buy out is SAR's 'cause his knees are leading him in the direction of retirement and he might be the most willing to take a pay cut. Also, his contract isn't as high as KT's so the amount of money thrown away is far less.

All of the bigs' contracts are up in 2010 - Mikki, KT, SAR, and Brad. I am hoping that Theus creates a nice atmosphere around here because we'll have a lot of money to use on free agents. C'mon Reggie, get your act together. Please let what we think we are seeing be an anomaly.

Maybe somewhere between 2010 and now we'll plummet far enough to get a real stud in the draft. Maybe Hawes will be a solid starter by then.

What I am saying is that there seems to be a definable end to this morass. This certainly isn't as bad as the early years of the Sacramento version of this franchise.

I understand that no one wants to wait but I'm not sure there are many options. This idea of buying out contracts at the best frees up a small amount of cap space and is not the end to all the misery.

 

[Glenn]

One week ago, i asked about the team chemistry. http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23488

I basically was told that the team's chemistry is fine. Here are some samples:

BudWright said.....
"Well, I don't think the chemistry is bad. I wish you would have put an option that said that as well. The players haven't said anything this season to indicate this (unless I missed something)--I think just the opposite from what they ARE saying".

Dude12 said....
"I mean Theus' quick hooks are obviously ticking guys off but he's pulling anybody and everybody and doesn't seem to care who you are. He's treating all the same way....in other words, you need to produce".

6th said...
The thread title asks the question, "Did Anybody Notice the Terrible Bench Chemistry?" Then your poll goes on the ask the cause to the bad chemistry. You must have assumed we would answer your question with a yes.

VF21 said.....
I saw it. If you didn't, I don't know what to tell you. We have a lot of stuff to be concerned about right now; I honestly don't think team chemistry is among the top problems.

This is not to throw anybody under the bus or to say that I told you so, but until the chemistry on this team is addressed (whether it is the front office, the coach, the players, the fans or all the above) this team has no shot to compete. either this team was a mess a week ago or a lot has changed in 7 days. At least with everybody on the same page they have a chance to compete night after night.

I am 150 percent in support of Reggie Theus as the coach of the Sacramento Kings. But he has to learn that this is not New Mexico State. This league is about talent. There is no reason Salmons should not have been in that lineup last night playing 40 minutes. It is on Theus to get the balance back on this squad. To know who should play and who should not, and make sure those that are not playing will be ready to accept their roles, and if they don't THEY ARE GONE!!! It is that simple.

I know. It seems odd doesn't it that our perceptions (not yours) have flipped 180 degrees in one week? Maybe the truth is somewhere in between this manic/depressive shift of feelings.

 

[kennadog]

*Opens dictionary to definition of manic-depressive* "Kings fans"

 

[mcsluggo]

Show me a 2-6 team that is not "up-and-coming" (and, frankly, is NOT underachieving) with "good" chemistry, and I'll show you a bunch bunch of losers.

This team is having issues because they suck.
They know they suck.
They also KNOW that they personally do NOT suck, so it must be everyone else that SUCKS... and THAT sucks.
How could you not be pissed off at "everybody else" in that situation?

 

[fnordius]

Is there a kind of a standard length of time it takes a team to rebuild? Once a team has been up, when should we expect them to return to that lofty position - achieved exactly once since 1985, BTW

Well, that's a 2-part question. One can sit in the doldrums for as long as one likes. But turning a crappy team into a good team can be done in a year. We did it, Phoenix (they were 29-53 in 2003-4, remember?) did it, and Boston just did it. Contract hell means that we won't be doing it that fast this time, but contract hell is an ongoing thing. Every summer for the last 3 years, when we should have been blowing it up, we've been signing someone at MLE, and what we've got to show for that $18M/yr is SAR, Mikki and Salmons. Oh, and don't forget the Peja for Ron bandaid. So now we cannot even attempt a rebuild until mid-2010.

So I'm thinking that we could have a promising young team in 2010-11, and be good by the following year. A one-year rebuild. It's not so much a matter of whether it can be done -- it can -- as it is a matter of when we actually start doing it. So far, nobody has been doing it. Nobody has even been preparing to do it. All we can do now is to draft as many raw but promising 19 year olds as we can, and hope that they still have a lot of mileage left on them by 2012.

 

[NewArena]

Yes theus has made some mistakes and i wasnt happy with his pulling martin out of the game but he wasnt playing defense and he ended up playing 35 minutes. Salmons almost played 30 minutes, he doesnt need to play more than that.

It might have been good for salmons and his career to be scoring the way he did but did we see any ball movement when he was on this "scoring tear" in these games? No is the answer, i would rather see artest at power forward with salmons starting but if that isnt what happens so what. Salmons got enough minutes last night and needs to realize that he aint Artest and never will be ont he court.

You mean to tell me that players didnt expect to get their roles reduced when artest came back and still dont expect it when bibby comes back? thats amazing to me.

 

[NewArena]

BTW this is the very reason petrie and the maloofs need to get off their arse and make a move because there are too many players playing the same damn position. SOMEONE no matter what any of you say is going to be unhappy, i dont care if theus is pulling someone out or not but either way there will be a frown on that bench and it isnt theus' fault...its petrie.

 

[kupman]

Show me a 2-6 team that is not "up-and-coming" (and, frankly, is NOT underachieving) with "good" chemistry, and I'll show you a bunch bunch of losers.

This team is having issues because they suck.
They know they suck.
They also KNOW that they personally do NOT suck, so it must be everyone else that SUCKS... and THAT sucks.
How could you not be pissed off at "everybody else" in that situation?

nice post!....I feel much the same way.

 

[bloom]

Drama..I'm sick and tired of it (last years drama was enough to last me a lifetime). I feel like this article is getting blown out of proportion. I'm glad the team shows emotion about the loss, it's good that they care. But why can't they show emotion when they play (and I'm not talking about the foul calls. Stop getting pissed that every call isn't going to work out for you, yeah some calls bug me but the refs aren't going to change it, so go to the other end of the floor and play).

Not even 8 games into the season and people start bagging on the coach which just bugs me (has anything else led people to believe that the coach is losing his team). I don't know why Reggie pulled Kevin out (it confussed me) but maybe if the media was good at asking the right questions then we would have answers instead of an article that just wants people to jump to conclusions. Plus, is news alowed to speculate on what happened (ex: "with whatever was said by Theus afterward likely playing a part")?

I've said this many times and I know some people are probably sick of hearing it but the team is off balance. There's too much one on one. There have been glimpses of team play (which makes me really excited) but then there's this one on one, no ball movement, no player movement...I can see some trades happening this year (whether it's soon or near the trade deadline). Out of all the trades I've heard from last year till now, the only one I'd love to see is the Chicago | Lakers | Kings trade. Artest is good but I don't think his place is here on this team.

We'll see how this situation unfolds, but Salmons has spent parts of the last three games upset with his role. And it didn't start with his quick exit from the locker room while Theus was discussing the game in the locker room afterward.
Salmons was less than thrilled to be pulled late in the game against Minnesota on Saturday, later saying about the situation "It was (disappointing). Everybody wants to finish the game, so I think that’s just human nature. That’s just being competitive."
It obviously didn't get much better. Asked about possibly losing his starting job the day before the game, Salmons said, "How do I look at it? Just like I always look at it. It is what it is."
What it is, as it stands, is a whole lot of griping early on in the season, including a few words between Theus and Kevin Martin during the latest T-Wolves' game and a handful of words exchanged between players and the coaching staff in earlier games. Salmons' situation may not be as simple as his feelings with his role, with whatever was said by Theus afterward likely playing a part. As Kings center Brad Miller correctly noted, Salmons' skills can't be lost with the return of Artest. Can Theus find the answer and restore some harmony on the home court?

Hey Salmons, stop acting like a diva (maybe diva isn't the right word, I can't think of anything else). This is a team sport, you don't put yourself ahead of the team. I've seen you play, you're a shoot first, dribble dribble and pass later. Sure, you've gotten consistent (awesome job) and I hope you stay consistent but please realize that you're a bench guy. You give us that extra spark that we need and I hope you realize that . Plus, I get it, you'd like to finish the game and maybe you should have but I don't like seeing this type of attitude from our players.

 

[Glenn]

Maybe "diva" is Spanish and the masculine equivalent is "divo."

 

[Fresno King]

Prediction:

Salmons and Theus shake hands on the bench tomorrow night a la Thomas and Marbury.

Salmons comes off the bench, plays 37 minutes, scores 26 points, the Kings beat the Knicks 102-87, and the team goes out for ice cream after the game.

Everyone except Thomas.

And Mikki will drop his ice cream cone.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

salmons should grow up.. of course artest is gonna take his spot.... salmons woulndt start on any team in this league.

 

[creAtivetfh]

Prediction:

Salmons and Theus shake hands on the bench tomorrow night a la Thomas and Marbury.

Salmons comes off the bench, plays 37 minutes, scores 26 points, the Kings beat the Knicks 102-87, and the team goes out for ice cream after the game.

Everyone except Thomas.

And Mikki will drop his ice cream cone.

CLASSIC

 

[Kingster]

I agree with everything in this post....everything! Personally, if guys can't step up and get the job done.....get off the floor. I'm all for Theus' handling of the team so far. He wants to go Jerry Sloan on guys, fine by me. Ask yourselves, how many of these guys on our team could play for Jerry Sloan or Popovich?

The thought process of Theus having to earn his stripes so that he can coach in this vain makes me want to vomit.

Great minds think alike!

 

[fnordius]

salmons should grow up.. of course artest is gonna take his spot.... salmons woulndt start on any team in this league.

He started on ours.

Of the 8 or 9 guys who we've started this season, he's consistently been in the top 3, perhaps the top 2.

Most (but not all) players do something counterintuitive; when you increase their minutes, their productivity, per minute, goes up. Salmons was not a great guy coming off the bench, he was very inconsistent. He did much better as a high-minutes starter. That doesn't make him a bad basketball player, but it does make him a roster problem.

Now we either rearrange our roster, or we get used to games like the last one (4-1-4 in 27 minutes) as what we're going to get from him a lot of the time.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

He started on ours.

Only because his betters were suspended/injured.

 

[Bricklayer]

Hey, you know, the guy was putting up 20 4 and 4 while shooting 49%. Now he wasn't helping us win, and so like most of our team those qualify as good numebrs on a bad team stuff. And in John's case in particular that is the career pattern -- can only put up numbers if almost every other player of note is not playing, so hence he scores big, but you lose. Nonetheless, he did put 20 4 and 4, and was very consistent about it every night. He was obviously shooting well above his head (he is NOT going to shoot 55% from three on the year), but if he'd jsut been left in that spot was likely going to put up 15+ ppg given those minutes and that role over the course of the year. So can't sneeze at it too too much.

Can however express some disdain at the predicatable instant ego that was spawned. Or maybe its really just uncovering the same problem that has always made him inconsistent and prone to disappearing over his career. Don't think he really wants to have other guys out on the floor with him. He had some quote about finally being able just to go out and not defer etc., and I think he was basically in hog heaven there for the first couple of weeks. Got to do what he wanted, whenever he wanted, and sure, we lose, and lose miserably. But its John's comfort zone. Obviously throws his usefulness on a good team into significant question.

 

[kennadog]

And Mikki will drop his ice cream cone.

You owe me a new keyboard.

 

[fnordius]

Only because his betters were suspended/injured.

Still, look at some of his competition. Willie Green. Luke Walton. Jason Kapono. Anthony Parker. Desmond Mason. He may not be as good as the best of those guys, but he's definitely not the worst of them, either.

 

[kingsfan916]

Prediction:

Salmons and Theus shake hands on the bench tomorrow night a la Thomas and Marbury.

Salmons comes off the bench, plays 37 minutes, scores 26 points, the Kings beat the Knicks 102-87, and the team goes out for ice cream after the game.

Everyone except Thomas.

And Mikki will drop his ice cream cone.

lol this one had me cracking up

 

[CruzDude]

.........

By the way, I did not say "punishment" doesn't work. It does, but it tends to be effective only in the short term. In the, long run you want a person to do a good job, because they want to ("buying in"), not because they want to avoid punishment. That's what leadership is about.

One thing is true, if a player is determined to be a problem no matter how they are treated, because they are ultimately selfish, then GP will have to help by moving that player, if at all possible.

Yeah, this is the more reasonable approach and it is only ONE game and ONE incident. Rookies all make mistakes, players as well as coaches. You have to cut Coach Reggie some slack especially this early. And he has had what, 4 starting lineups in 8 games?? Everyone wants to know what their position is on the pecking order of starting/rotation. Throw RonRon into the mix and his ball hogging and it will cause a quick run for the Tums.

Now lets see what coach can pull off and if, a big IF, he can get RonRon to buy into what was starting to work and let Beno work up into running the team with his ball handling and distribution. But RonRon HAS to buy in or we're gonna need a suitcase of Tums.

 

[chelle]

I have a couple questions.

1. Are we sure that Kevin was arguing with Theus at the end of the game?
2. Who was Salmons upset with after the game? Was is the coaches or other players?