Arena drawing on City website

[Glenn]

I could write a book about why I don't think Sacramento will come up with something special. Nobody wants to hear it as it is a slam on the area. I've read the web site as directed by Section 101.

 

[Larry David]

As long as it's a FUNDED, NBA quality, arena that keeps the team here and drives money downtown, I could not care any less about the debate above.

Would I prefer a land mark - yes. But the debate above spends time and money we don't have. As we are on our very last shot as well as probably our best shot, I'm not thinking - eh, couldn't you start over and make it grander.

The odds of this plan getting done are probably no better than 50/50. The odds of "something special" are probably zero. Which I why I view this debate a pretty pointless.

You all have bigger fish to fry on this topic.

 

[Livinthedream]

It's hard to get anything special done because the majority of the people with money live outside of the city proper. Even outside of the county. You need those people living downtown and saying yes, I would love to have more and the best of everything near where I live. Instead, too many of the people who live within the city limits are those who are just getting by and maybe aren't willing to put an extra dime into making their surroundings more enjoyable. This is why the Downtown Plaza was abandoned by Westfield in favor of Roseville. That's why I think some of those recently failed hi-rise condo's downtown had a huge impact on our growth as a city.

Until the suburban sprawl trend is reversed, anything special or of value is going to go to the Roseville/Granite Bay/Folsom area. Even if the Natomas site was much cheaper to build an arena, building there would suck even more of the life out of Sacramento. KJ and the city council knows this. West Sacramento leadership knows this.

 

[Tetsujin]

Jim Les, I never misunderstood you or misunderstood your attitude towards this project. (Actually it's St. Paul which makes it more miraculous ). Perhaps people forgot that you are an architect/urban planner and that your attitude would be different than the typical man on the street.

Yes, the City in the end controls what happens or maybe the people that own the land which makes the potential for it being disjointed more likely. In any case, my experience was zero until I saw the marvelous downtown of St. Paul (repititous, I know) and what it did for that town is amazing. The arena was a small part. Without seeing what was done, no one can really understand what I had in mind and what I think Jim Les had in mind. It is VERY ambitious.

The area CAN be special. I don't have a clue how it can be done given the City doesn't even own the land. Until something happens that really doesn't fit in a coherent way, there is nothing wrong with what has been done so far. We don't have an unlimited budget.

Let's build the dang arena and get over the biggest hump. That's the immediate challenge and it is not guaranteed. The more ambitious ideas cannot be pursued without an arena.

This. Arena needs to be built right now. We can figure out the rest afterwards. First we need to keep the Kings.

 

[JB_kings]

It's hard to get anything special done because the majority of the people with money live outside of the city proper. Even outside of the county. You need those people living downtown and saying yes, I would love to have more and the best of everything near where I live. Instead, too many of the people who live within the city limits are those who are just getting by and maybe aren't willing to put an extra dime into making their surroundings more enjoyable. This is why the Downtown Plaza was abandoned by Westfield in favor of Roseville. That's why I think some of those recently failed hi-rise condo's downtown had a huge impact on our growth as a city.

Until the suburban sprawl trend is reversed, anything special or of value is going to go to the Roseville/Granite Bay/Folsom area. Even if the Natomas site was much cheaper to build an arena, building there would suck even more of the life out of Sacramento. KJ and the city council knows this. West Sacramento leadership knows this.

The nice part about this is if they get it built downtown, then people from those areas like Folsom, EDH, Granite Bay, Roseville, Rocklin, etc will all be downtown for events and spending money there instead of other places. When I attend River Cats games, I like to park downtown and do something in Old Sac and walk over the bridge. The bones for a lively downtown after work hours is there. Just need a reason to get people down there and the it will lift the area up. Special events festivals are great ones, but few and far between. Put 200+ arena events there and 2/3 of the year the place will have an influx of people.

 

[Livinthedream]

The nice part about this is if they get it built downtown, then people from those areas like Folsom, EDH, Granite Bay, Roseville, Rocklin, etc will all be downtown for events and spending money there instead of other places. When I attend River Cats games, I like to park downtown and do something in Old Sac and walk over the bridge. The bones for a lively downtown after work hours is there. Just need a reason to get people down there and the it will lift the area up. Special events festivals are great ones, but few and far between. Put 200+ arena events there and 2/3 of the year the place will have an influx of people.

If you're a business owner, where would you want to be? Right in the heart of the action. So restaurants and shops would start popping up around the arena. You don't need to conduct a study to come to that conclusion.

 

[Jim Les]

If you're a business owner, where would you want to be? Right in the heart of the action. So restaurants and shops would start popping up around the arena. You don't need to conduct a study to come to that conclusion.

I wouldn't be so cavalier about that. If you put an arena downtown, and surround it with a sea of parking, then you can effectively kill the urban experience that your trying to create. You can't just jump to the conclusion that it'll work. There are too many case studies that show that it doesn't work when it is planned out recklessly and/or in a hurry. If you create a dense environment, then you plant the seeds for people who live outside of the city limits to migrate back in. Otherwise your stuck with all of your wealth outside of the city limits, giving you a smaller pool of public money in the future. The best way to avoid urban sprawl is to give people more urban amenities that they wouldn't get out in the burbs (transportation, entertainment, defensible space, adaquate housing, etc). That's why these projects are so crucial to be done effectively. And for the record, I'm in favor of a downtown arena, but I need to see more info about parking/connection to transportation, etc. before I can confidently say it would be a success.

This. Arena needs to be built right now. We can figure out the rest afterwards. First we need to keep the Kings.

Careful with this. Many of the people who are so quick to adore the plans are also the ones who lambasted Arco for being done on the cheap and in a hurry, which eventually lead to its obsolescence.

 

[Warhawk]

I wouldn't be so cavalier about that. If you put an arena downtown, and surround it with a sea of parking, then you can effectively kill the urban experience that your trying to create. You can't just jump to the conclusion that it'll work.

Um, except every indication is they are going to use all the existing parking and keep new parking to a minimum. They are also going to use new parking to be built near the courthouse. So - no "sea of parking" on the way.

 

[Jim Les]

I was talking about the blanket attitude in general, and I was using parking as one example of the ways you can shoot yourself in the foot with poor planning. Perhaps these things were discussed at the meeting. I wouldn't know, as I don't live in Sacramento anymore. I'm just going by what I read in the report, which was a bit light in some areas, so if there is more info out there, I'll have to scour through it. Once Populous starts coming out with more drawings/images, I can make a more informed opinion. By no means is my opinion definitive or absolute. This thing is still growing, I just want to see the right moves continue to be made.

 

[JB_kings]

I wouldn't be so cavalier about that. If you put an arena downtown, and surround it with a sea of parking, then you can effectively kill the urban experience that your trying to create. You can't just jump to the conclusion that it'll work. There are too many case studies that show that it doesn't work when it is planned out recklessly and/or in a hurry. If you create a dense environment, then you plant the seeds for people who live outside of the city limits to migrate back in. Otherwise your stuck with all of your wealth outside of the city limits, giving you a smaller pool of public money in the future. The best way to avoid urban sprawl is to give people more urban amenities that they wouldn't get out in the burbs (transportation, entertainment, defensible space, adaquate housing, etc). That's why these projects are so crucial to be done effectively. And for the record, I'm in favor of a downtown arena, but I need to see more info about parking/connection to transportation, etc. before I can confidently say it would be a success.

Actually ICON already agreed with the situation on parking. That is why they made a point in their presentation to say that 8,000 parking spots already exist within blocks of the arena site. They do not propose to build acres of parking as you are speculating. They are promoting exactly the kind of urban experience you describe.

So far they have done exactly what you wanted in most of your suggestions. Held an open design proposal period where any group was invited to submit their proposals. They are rolling light rail to the front entrance of the proposed arena site. And now they have leveraged existing parking and are actively encouraging use of public transportation.

AMTRAK has not really been mentioned much, but with downtown arena at the railyards, they can pull in bay area people who can use the the Capitol Corridor and step off the train and walk a few yards to the arena entrance to see a game, concert or show. There is a huge amount of people between Sacramento and the east bay. They might just like a train ride to Sac over a BART ride to Oakland. And I think it would be a natural fit to have a train run from Roseville to Downtown and back for game specials. Think about it. If they can can get almost 1,000 from the Roseville area who would have paid $15-20 to park and would instead probably pay that for a round trip on the train. I think it could work.

 

[Livinthedream]

I wouldn't be so cavalier about that. If you put an arena downtown, and surround it with a sea of parking, then you can effectively kill the urban experience that your trying to create. You can't just jump to the conclusion that it'll work. There are too many case studies that show that it doesn't work when it is planned out recklessly and/or in a hurry. If you create a dense environment, then you plant the seeds for people who live outside of the city limits to migrate back in. Otherwise your stuck with all of your wealth outside of the city limits, giving you a smaller pool of public money in the future. The best way to avoid urban sprawl is to give people more urban amenities that they wouldn't get out in the burbs (transportation, entertainment, defensible space, adaquate housing, etc). That's why these projects are so crucial to be done effectively. And for the record, I'm in favor of a downtown arena, but I need to see more info about parking/connection to transportation, etc. before I can confidently say it would be a success.

I think we agree more than what you think, as what you stated here is much of what I said a few posts above. I was basing my statements off of the presentation which said that ICON did not include parking because there was enough parking within the area as well as a plan to have a light rail stop right in front of the arena. ICON also stated that this was just their initial concept on the arena and would wait to hear back from the city and from the Maloofs on what needs to be changed or adjusted. So we need to give time for this arena design to take shape. Fingers are crossed that we have the right leadership in place to do this the right way. I don't have enough knowledge to be critical of the Populous group. I just look at the pictures and say yes I like it or no I don't.