Feb. 19 - 3 PM EST.
and with the #1 pick in the 2009 NBA draft the Kings select...
- Thread starter RiffRaff
- Start date
Feb. 19 - 3 PM EST.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Your idea of a reach and Petrie's are two different things. Petrie drafts the player that he believes will be the best fit for the team. Peja was a reach by your definition. So was Hedo. So was Martin. None of those guys were projected to go as high as they ended up getting picked by Petrie.
Whats true, is that Petrie doesn't suscribe to Draftexpress or NBAdraft etc. He has his own scouting team and makes decisions based on what he's seen personaly. He could care less what the so called experts say. His record speaks for itself.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
I think the whole "reaching" debate started out from whether he would take Collison with a top 5 pick even though Collison is considered more of mid to late first on mock drafts as of this moment. So, in that context it's important how Petrie picks compared to mock drafts and projections.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Well, it sure didn't stop him doing well against team USA during the summer (as a 17 year old).
Look, I know you're not sold on him (which is perfectly fine), but you just have to trust me on this one!! The kid can play, and he is special. Would you say no to John Stockton or Steve Nash? He doesn't have the shooting ability of those guys to be fair, but defensively he is miles ahead of them (Nash anyway, maybe not Stockton). As well as that, his intangibles are off the charts. He has an amazing knack for making big plays and getting defensive stops.
Rubio is never going to be a franchise player (which is why some people will be disappointed with him - their fault, not his), but he will be an all-star level player who brings excitement, fun, energy, hustle, amazing passing ability, big plays time and time again (he's came up big multiple times already, and he will never be outsmarted on the court), and the smarts of a seasoned vet. He just has "it", whatever "it" is. I can't explain it. He just brings something to the court. Whenever he steps on, the team steps up. He makes people better.
You will just have to trust me. I will eat every crow alive if in five years time he has not brought alot of happiness to an NBA team.
If he is there and we pass on him, I don't know what I'll do. I'll never stop being a fan obviously, but it will officially put me on the "fire Geoff" bandwagon. However, I don't think he's going to come out this year. I think next year is his year.
nbrans
All-Star
Did he do well vs. Team USA? 6 points and 3 assists in one game? 8 points and 3 assists in another? I know he's young, but he didn't exactly set the world on fire. Heck, Patrick Mills did a whole lot more than him against Team USA at basically the same age.
I could be more wrong about Rubio than anyone else since I'm going against a lot of hype. But everything I've seen of him tells me that he's slow (and much slower than Steve Nash, who has a very quick first step), and that he can't shoot.
The European leagues have very good players, but there's no one over there like Chris Paul, Tony Parker, TJ Ford, and other lightning quick players. Rubio is going to really, really struggle against those guys. I don't think he has NBA athleticism. I don't think he'll be an All-Star. He'll be a bench guy or starter for a bad team who can come in and be a good facilitator.
"It" hasn't given Kevin Love the athletic ability to score in the NBA. "It" hasn't given Adam Morrison to overcome his athleticism. "It" hasn't given JJ Redick the ability to overcome his lack of height. "It" hasn't made Shelden Williams a defensive force.
He's good for a 18 year old, no doubt. But I don't think his cieling is very high at all.
I could be more wrong about Rubio than anyone else since I'm going against a lot of hype. But everything I've seen of him tells me that he's slow (and much slower than Steve Nash, who has a very quick first step), and that he can't shoot.
The European leagues have very good players, but there's no one over there like Chris Paul, Tony Parker, TJ Ford, and other lightning quick players. Rubio is going to really, really struggle against those guys. I don't think he has NBA athleticism. I don't think he'll be an All-Star. He'll be a bench guy or starter for a bad team who can come in and be a good facilitator.
"It" hasn't given Kevin Love the athletic ability to score in the NBA. "It" hasn't given Adam Morrison to overcome his athleticism. "It" hasn't given JJ Redick the ability to overcome his lack of height. "It" hasn't made Shelden Williams a defensive force.
He's good for a 18 year old, no doubt. But I don't think his cieling is very high at all.
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Dime Dropper
All-Star
Here is a recent write-up of Rubio done by draftexpress while they were in Spain.
Here is the original article: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Blogging-Through-Europe-2008-Part-Five-Spain--3060/
I highlighted some of the main points and some of the things people may not know about him. There is a little more in the original article which I didn't post.
BTW, I don't know if the buyout is the main issue, DE says his contract runs 'til 2011 and he's most likely to enter the '10 draft. Wouldn't that mean he would still have the 7 mil (reported) buyout?
Here is the original article: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Blogging-Through-Europe-2008-Part-Five-Spain--3060/
I highlighted some of the main points and some of the things people may not know about him. There is a little more in the original article which I didn't post.
BTW, I don't know if the buyout is the main issue, DE says his contract runs 'til 2011 and he's most likely to enter the '10 draft. Wouldn't that mean he would still have the 7 mil (reported) buyout?
I'm usually not real enthusiastic about drafts, etc. but I think Ricky Rubio just might be the real deal. If you remember, Tony Parker wasn't expected to be very good and he's exceeded everyone's expectations. I think Rubio could actually end up being better than Parker in the right system and with the right coaching. This is where Coachie's reappearance would become significant as I think Carril possesses the knowledge and ability to bring out the very best in a player like Rubio...
We might even draft him and leave him in Europe for a year while everything else gets sorted out. It wouldn't be the first time. Remember, Peja didn't come over right away and when he did we waited as he recovered from his leg injury. Rubio just might surprise a lot of people who don't see what the fuss is all about.
Of course, he could end up being another kid who comes over, can't do anything, and ends up running back to Europe, too. That's part of the "fun" of it all ...
nbrans
All-Star
Come on, nbrans. That's mixing apples and rutabagas...
You could easily dig up DraftExpress reports on every player where they ended up being wrong and Dime Dropper could counter with situations where they've been right.
Bottom line the point isn't what Draft Express says anyway...
I agree with Dime Dropper on this one that Ricky Rubio has something special. I was one of the VERY FEW people who supported Kevin Martin right from the beginning on the same kind of hunch as I have about Ricky. You can disagree, of course, but at this point it's all conjecture. I just know from personal experience I've only had a "hunch" about very few players in the NBA and, so far at least, it's come to fruition each time. So my record on this, at least, is pretty good. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens, right?
You could easily dig up DraftExpress reports on every player where they ended up being wrong and Dime Dropper could counter with situations where they've been right.
Bottom line the point isn't what Draft Express says anyway...
I agree with Dime Dropper on this one that Ricky Rubio has something special. I was one of the VERY FEW people who supported Kevin Martin right from the beginning on the same kind of hunch as I have about Ricky. You can disagree, of course, but at this point it's all conjecture. I just know from personal experience I've only had a "hunch" about very few players in the NBA and, so far at least, it's come to fruition each time. So my record on this, at least, is pretty good. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens, right?
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Again, I have to respectfully disagree on most of your points. He had limited minutes in those games (understandably, Spain is the best team in the world after USA), yet he still had a pretty big impact on the games that went further than the stats showed.
Rubios not slow at all, he has a kind of languid (sp?) style but he is pretty quick when he pushes it. He is no Tony Parker though, you're right about that. But I doubt he is much slower than Nash. I've seen alot of him. He can shoot, but his form is strange. Not what you'd expect from a Euro, but it is. He is effective though, particularly when his team needs him. And anyway, if you draft Rubio expecting a big scorer, there is something wrong with you.
BTW, who in the NBA can stop Chris Paul and Tony Parker? They may have off nights, but as far as being unstoppable goes, they're it.
Morrison was never going to be good in the NBA. As I've said before, comparing Rubio to him is idiotic. I know that you don't mean in style of play, but it is still a little clueless. I don't mean to offend you by that, because to be fair you haven't had the added benefit of having seen Rubio alot. But I promise you, Rubio will be 3x the player. And Love? Dude, he's a rookie, give him a chance. He could still be a pretty good player (I'd still take Ricky over him any day of the week). And I'd have to disagree that Reddick or Sheldon ever had "it", and Love too. In fact, I find it kind of amusing!
I know I can't change your mind on him, but if by some miracle we do draft him, just promise that you won't be down on the pick! If you are, you won't be down on the pick for long.
nbrans
All-Star
He didn't have limited minutes, he had 18 minutes and 29 minutes (in the championship game, more than any other player in fact).
And VF21, I disagree that the comparisons aren't appropriate, because they both are players that supposedly had "it" and who were going to use "it" to overcome their lack of athleticism at the next level. All those other players were also variously described as having "it" -- I was repeatedly told that Shelden was a beast and Defensive Player of the Year, etc. etc. etc. that, nevermind his lack of size and athleticism, would at worst be a 10/10 guy in the NBA. Well, it's worse.
I'll say it again. The non-center stars of the NBA are elite athletes. Rubio is not one.
And VF21, I disagree that the comparisons aren't appropriate, because they both are players that supposedly had "it" and who were going to use "it" to overcome their lack of athleticism at the next level. All those other players were also variously described as having "it" -- I was repeatedly told that Shelden was a beast and Defensive Player of the Year, etc. etc. etc. that, nevermind his lack of size and athleticism, would at worst be a 10/10 guy in the NBA. Well, it's worse.
I'll say it again. The non-center stars of the NBA are elite athletes. Rubio is not one.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Yeah, I just don't want to see a repeat of the Jason Williams pick, where the Kings (and fans) were so freaking desperate that Petrie reached (his mumblings attested to it) to get Williams when Pearce and Nowitski were on the board. If he picked Collison with the high #1, that would be a disaster.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
We're not going to pass on Rubio. Heck, Reynolds mentioned him (I think I heard the saliva dripping from his mouth when he did it). Several times, Reynolds has mentioned the importance of a point guard also. I just don't think we're going to be lucky enough to get him. Never happens the way you want it to.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
Do you have a link? I'm not saying you're lying, I just can't find the stats.
It's easy to dump the two players in the same boat if you're simply going to ignore what both players are good at. Morrison was one of those guys you could sense wasn't going to be a good NBA player, let alone a great one. He has no athleticism, average size, his release wasn't particularly quick (which is pretty bad considering his ability to score was his strength). He didn't play D.
Rubio on the other hand is an average athlete at worst (I place him slightly above all-round). He's 6'4'' which is excellent size for the PG spot. He has very long arms which helps him get alot of steals and play good D. He's dunked a few times in games, how many times has Parker or Paul done that? Granted, it's a hollow measuring stick, but it at least shows the ability to jump. He has amazing vision and passing ability, and the ability to pull off plays that Morrison could only dream of. He is a great leader, something Morrison never was (crying after the game? Pfft). He makes everybody play better and he makes his team-mates up the intensity.
Again, Sheldon was under-sized and a below average athlete. Rubio has elite size and length (you can't teach it). Despite this, Sheldon has done OK in the few mins he's got.
This is simply baloney. Nash, Parker, Redd, Billups, Kidd etc. aren't, and never were, elite athletes. The list is endless.
nbrans
All-Star
http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fe/08...nglc/en/roundid/6454/fe_scheStat_boxScor.html
Honestly, go back and check out the threads on this very board about Shelden Williams and Adam Morrison. Where is all this certainty you speak of that people didn't think they were going to be good? I was one of the only people saying it.
Nash, Parker, Billups, Kidd weren't elite athletes?? If Nash isn't quick, how come he's able to get into the lane at will? Where did this myth develop that he's slow? Parker is one of the quickest players ever. Billups... ok, I'll give you Billups and Redd, but they're both elite shooters. Rubio isn't one. Kidd in his young days was extremely, extremely athletic. Very quick, good leaper. He's still not that shabby.
We can go around and around on this, and I guess we'll see one day. But every time people fall in love with a guy because he's very skilled..... call me skeptical no matter how special he seems. Look at draft history. 9 times out of 10 these guys bust.
Here's a list of "special" or "clutch" or "tough" lotto picks just in the 00's who were supposedly going to overcome their lack of athleticism and busted:
- Acie Law
- Adam Morrison
- Shelden Williams
- JJ Redick
- Ike Diogu
- Sean May
- Mike Sweetney
- Jarvis Hayes
- Mike Dunleavy (Nene, Amare, Caron Butler picked after him)
Honestly, go back and check out the threads on this very board about Shelden Williams and Adam Morrison. Where is all this certainty you speak of that people didn't think they were going to be good? I was one of the only people saying it.
Nash, Parker, Billups, Kidd weren't elite athletes?? If Nash isn't quick, how come he's able to get into the lane at will? Where did this myth develop that he's slow? Parker is one of the quickest players ever. Billups... ok, I'll give you Billups and Redd, but they're both elite shooters. Rubio isn't one. Kidd in his young days was extremely, extremely athletic. Very quick, good leaper. He's still not that shabby.
We can go around and around on this, and I guess we'll see one day. But every time people fall in love with a guy because he's very skilled..... call me skeptical no matter how special he seems. Look at draft history. 9 times out of 10 these guys bust.
Here's a list of "special" or "clutch" or "tough" lotto picks just in the 00's who were supposedly going to overcome their lack of athleticism and busted:
- Acie Law
- Adam Morrison
- Shelden Williams
- JJ Redick
- Ike Diogu
- Sean May
- Mike Sweetney
- Jarvis Hayes
- Mike Dunleavy (Nene, Amare, Caron Butler picked after him)
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Vlade4GM
All-Star
Jennings had a pretty good game. He finished with 13 pts, 5/6 on fg's, 2/2 on 3's and 1/2 ft's; 1 assist that I know of, not sure on the exact conditions of a Euroleague assist. Offensively he played mostly OG in the set offense, he made two 3's in catch and shoot situations, one wide open and one with a defender going at him. He made a nice drive to the basket weaving baseline around Tiago Splitter to finish with a reverse layup. Another strong drive from his right going straight into Splitter and finishing with contact with his right hand. Made a nice drive where he sprinted from the backcourt around the D to the basket and made a nice quick pass to their C in the post for an easy finish. In the 4th quarter he made a good finish in transition with a guy in his face. Late in the 4th when they were making their comeback from a 10 pt defecit, he made a strong drive to the basket and got fouled by Splitter, missed one of his ft's which could have been crucial since they tied and went into OT, where they lost by 7 IIRC. In OT, he made that wide open 3, and missed on an open pull up tear dropper from about 8-10 ft out. I've seen him do this before, when he has driven down the middle towards traffic he pulls up and takes a not very good looking shot when he probably should've taken it closer, it didn't look like he was going to be challenged too much.
As a PG, Jennings was not really tested that much in this game. Their other primary guard Jaaber was normally the main ball handler in the set offense and had the ball when the shot clock was down, he controlled the ball most of the game when Jennings was in. Jennings is more of their go-to guy in transition, that's where he controls the game, makes the right passes, and shows his most advanced aspect of his game. So Jennings wasn't involved in much crucial playmaking and decision making spots. He was playing a conservative game however and keeping the ball moving, he did not take any wild pull ups or make any crazy passes. He didn't really make any real challenging entry passes, so I can't really comment on that part of his game. Overall, he had a good game picking his spots and creating offense for himself, he didn't really deny any open guys on his drives to the basket, and he never really forced anything. So while he didn't show anything special as a playmaker in the half court, he made strides in controlling his game. Also, I was impressed with his finishing ability and aggressiveness against Splitter who is considered to be a solid NBA prospect, and projects to be a good post defender in the NBA.
Defensively he didn't do well. While they didn't take much advantage of it, he had trouble staying in front of his man on drives to the basket, and it ended up with a reach-in foul on one play trying to recover; he recovers decently though, but these are against slower players. It's not out of lack of effort or quickness that he struggles though, maybe a lack of confidence because of his lack of strength. He is still getting caught up bad in screens, he has a lot of trouble fighting out of them and he doesn't see them coming well. He was a lot more active around the glass compared to the last time I saw him, showed good activity there. He made a dumb mistake getting a foul on one play reaching in while the defender jumped into it to launch a 3 pt attempt; probably not a big deal but he does have some problems making dumb reach-ins ocassionally. What he lacks defensively is strength and IQ, but he has solid lateral quicks, length and he puts forth a good effort.
One thing you can say for certain about Jennings is that he is an uber-athlete, he will instantly be one of the best athletes at the PG position in the NBA hands down.
I tried to be as detailed as possible since I know he is a candidate for our pick and not many here can see him play, but I'm not a big X's and O's guy so I probably missed some stuff.
As a PG, Jennings was not really tested that much in this game. Their other primary guard Jaaber was normally the main ball handler in the set offense and had the ball when the shot clock was down, he controlled the ball most of the game when Jennings was in. Jennings is more of their go-to guy in transition, that's where he controls the game, makes the right passes, and shows his most advanced aspect of his game. So Jennings wasn't involved in much crucial playmaking and decision making spots. He was playing a conservative game however and keeping the ball moving, he did not take any wild pull ups or make any crazy passes. He didn't really make any real challenging entry passes, so I can't really comment on that part of his game. Overall, he had a good game picking his spots and creating offense for himself, he didn't really deny any open guys on his drives to the basket, and he never really forced anything. So while he didn't show anything special as a playmaker in the half court, he made strides in controlling his game. Also, I was impressed with his finishing ability and aggressiveness against Splitter who is considered to be a solid NBA prospect, and projects to be a good post defender in the NBA.
Defensively he didn't do well. While they didn't take much advantage of it, he had trouble staying in front of his man on drives to the basket, and it ended up with a reach-in foul on one play trying to recover; he recovers decently though, but these are against slower players. It's not out of lack of effort or quickness that he struggles though, maybe a lack of confidence because of his lack of strength. He is still getting caught up bad in screens, he has a lot of trouble fighting out of them and he doesn't see them coming well. He was a lot more active around the glass compared to the last time I saw him, showed good activity there. He made a dumb mistake getting a foul on one play reaching in while the defender jumped into it to launch a 3 pt attempt; probably not a big deal but he does have some problems making dumb reach-ins ocassionally. What he lacks defensively is strength and IQ, but he has solid lateral quicks, length and he puts forth a good effort.
One thing you can say for certain about Jennings is that he is an uber-athlete, he will instantly be one of the best athletes at the PG position in the NBA hands down.
I tried to be as detailed as possible since I know he is a candidate for our pick and not many here can see him play, but I'm not a big X's and O's guy so I probably missed some stuff.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Nash has a good first step and good quickness, but he's not elite quick by any stretch of the imagination. He gets into the lane well by being a great ball handler, and having excellent coordination in changing directions and controlling his body. Things Rubio also has.
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HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
I'm still firmly on the Brandon Jennings bandwagon. He's getting the discipline he needs in Europe, and his game will be years more mature than it would have been had he gone to college.
I didn't get to see the game, but did anyone catch Greg Monroe's statline today? Nearly put up a triple double! 13 points (5/7 shooting, 3/3 FT), 11 rebounds (3 OFF), 8 assists (5 TOs), 5 steals, 2 blocks.
Holy crap.
I didn't get to see the game, but did anyone catch Greg Monroe's statline today? Nearly put up a triple double! 13 points (5/7 shooting, 3/3 FT), 11 rebounds (3 OFF), 8 assists (5 TOs), 5 steals, 2 blocks.
Holy crap.
Gary
All-Star
Kevin Love is one of the top rookies this year. He has gotten a lot better after early struggles. For a while he was averaging double digit rebounds, but was struggling on offense so his minutes went down and were erratic for a few games. Minnesota is one of the teams I have watched a lot of this year (seen almost every game), and Love in the last few games has gotten a good 25mins/per and has done great. He has been one of the main reasons the T-Wolves have won 4 in a row. So it's kind of early to group him with Redick, Williams, and Morrison. How could you poo-poo on a rookie getting 8ppg 8rpg in 22 minutes? Thompson is only averaging 9ppg 6rpg in 24 minutes, and can you believe that Love is blocking more shots on average (barely) in less minutes?
Rubio is probably the top PG prospect in Europe, and is still VERY young. He wasn't even 18 when he was the best Euro PG.. To say he will not be as good as any of the names you mentioned is just wrong. To say his ceiling isn't high is also wrong. His ceiling is whatever he wants it to be. He's that good right now. If he's entering the draft this year and if he's on the board when the Kings are selecting I am almost 100% sure he will be a King. Point guards of his caliber are hard to come by. A guy like Collison couldn't even hold a candle to Rubio.
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HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
With our Top 5 pick I'd like to get:
1. Blake Griffin
2. Greg Monroe
3. Brandon Jennings
4. Jrue Holiday
5. Hasheem Thabeet
Just not sold on Jordan Hill. Harden would make things difficult with Martin, if we can avoid him I'd like to.
And with our second pick:
1. Patrick Mills
2. Darren Collison
3. Tyler Smith
4. Patrick Patterson
5. Damian James
1. Blake Griffin
2. Greg Monroe
3. Brandon Jennings
4. Jrue Holiday
5. Hasheem Thabeet
Just not sold on Jordan Hill. Harden would make things difficult with Martin, if we can avoid him I'd like to.
And with our second pick:
1. Patrick Mills
2. Darren Collison
3. Tyler Smith
4. Patrick Patterson
5. Damian James
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I don't think Magic Johnson was an elite athlete. He couldn't jump very high, wasn't all that quick. He certainly had "it" though. For me the "it" is very high basketball IQ, vision, and in the case of Magic, excellent handling skills for a big man.
nbrans
All-Star
First off, it was a different era, and point guards weren't as quick as they are now. But Magic was one of the most athletic 6'9" guys to ever play the game. He wasn't a high flying athlete, but he ran the floor like, well, a point guard. He was quick enough to play D, run the break, and yeah, he had "it" along with all of his natural athletic abilities. He was a freakish player, along the lines of 6'6" Charles Barkley dominating at power forward. They're singular players, and it probably won't ever be duplicated in the same way.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
This is the main Rubio mixtape out there, and questionable music track aside, you can't tell me when you watch it that his athleticism isn't a concern. There isn't a single thing in the first 1:30 of the tape he could get away with in the NBA. Just a question of whether he is special enough to overcome it and how much he's grown -- this must have been compiled of clips from when he was very young. But the league hasn't changed that much -- great players can overcome middling or less athleticsm. Duncan, Yao, Dirk, Pierce etc. are not awe-inspiring athletes. But they are special players. That's what Rubio will have to be.
[yt=Rubio Mix]KqLGzkhRHN8[/yt]
[yt=Rubio Mix]KqLGzkhRHN8[/yt]
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Vlade4GM
All-Star
Rubio has at least the athletic ability of Nash. He's deceptively quick, great footwork, great body control, and ability to change direction and speed. Now, does Nash still get anywhere on the floor that he likes without his jump shot? That is the question that is relevant to how Rubio projects to the NBA. Personally I think Rubio's court awareness, ball handling, IQ, leadership, and passing are comparable to the greats. So, in this draft I take him on that even though I have reservations about his ability to be an all-star PG, because with those elite skills and intangibles I think he will still be a very solid PG (14-8-2); although we'd probably have to wait a year for him at least considering his buyout this year is insane. In 2010 however, I probably go safe route and take John Wall over him; assuming I had the choice between the two.
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Dime Dropper
All-Star
That mix was put on youtube in Sept. of '07, which means Rubio was likely 16, maybe 17 for parts of it. He looks slower than he is because he is pretty big for a PG at 6'4''. I'm almost certain that Rubio isn't going to have a problem with the speed of the NBA (he thrives in fast games).
Nbrans, are you going to tell me that if you had seen Dirk in the Euroleague you wouldn't have called him a likely-to-be bust? He was weak, an average athlete, and pretty much all he did was shoot. Considering his tag as a "soft Euro", I bet very few called him becoming an all-star.
How about our very own Beno Udrih? I'm not a fan of his (I was one of the few disappointed in GP giving him MLE), but do you honestly think he's faster than Rubio? Or that he's better in pretty much any way? Rubio is arguably the best PG in Europe, at the age of 18. Beno was solid in Europe. Believe it or not, the standard in Europe is high.
Not to mention the fact that Rubio completely outplayed his team-mate Calderon in the Olympics. I don't think anyone would turn down Calderon, who is a good player.
As an aside, you mentioned Rubios stats in the Championship game. Rubio had a statline of 6pts (1/3 fg, 4/4 FT), 6 rebs, 3 assists, 3 stls, 2 TO, in 29 mins of play. LeBron meanwhile, in only one minute less of time (lead USA in minutes played), had 14pts (6/9 fg, 0/2 FT), 6 rebs, 3 assists, 3 stl, 3 TO.
They had an identical statline with the exception of scoring (as you'd expect, seeing that LeBron is arguable the best player in the world). LeBron had one more turnover in one less minute. Rubio was 17.
Are you going to tell me the above is an accurate reflection of how good they are in comparison to one another? In no way am I saying Rubio is or will be better than LeBron, I'm saying stats don't tell the whole story. LeBrons contribution obviously went past the statsheet, but so did Rubios. You used Rubios 6pts and 3assists to discredit his performance, which was just misleading.
Nbrans, are you going to tell me that if you had seen Dirk in the Euroleague you wouldn't have called him a likely-to-be bust? He was weak, an average athlete, and pretty much all he did was shoot. Considering his tag as a "soft Euro", I bet very few called him becoming an all-star.
How about our very own Beno Udrih? I'm not a fan of his (I was one of the few disappointed in GP giving him MLE), but do you honestly think he's faster than Rubio? Or that he's better in pretty much any way? Rubio is arguably the best PG in Europe, at the age of 18. Beno was solid in Europe. Believe it or not, the standard in Europe is high.
Not to mention the fact that Rubio completely outplayed his team-mate Calderon in the Olympics. I don't think anyone would turn down Calderon, who is a good player.
As an aside, you mentioned Rubios stats in the Championship game. Rubio had a statline of 6pts (1/3 fg, 4/4 FT), 6 rebs, 3 assists, 3 stls, 2 TO, in 29 mins of play. LeBron meanwhile, in only one minute less of time (lead USA in minutes played), had 14pts (6/9 fg, 0/2 FT), 6 rebs, 3 assists, 3 stl, 3 TO.
They had an identical statline with the exception of scoring (as you'd expect, seeing that LeBron is arguable the best player in the world). LeBron had one more turnover in one less minute. Rubio was 17.
Are you going to tell me the above is an accurate reflection of how good they are in comparison to one another? In no way am I saying Rubio is or will be better than LeBron, I'm saying stats don't tell the whole story. LeBrons contribution obviously went past the statsheet, but so did Rubios. You used Rubios 6pts and 3assists to discredit his performance, which was just misleading.
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nbrans
All-Star
First off, I wouldn't include Dirk in any discussion of weak athletes in the NBA because he's the quickest and most athletic 7 footer in the league this side of Kevin Garnett. No one has ever been able to do what he does at his height in terms of putting the ball on the floor at his size. No idea what the confusion is there. The other examples Brick mentioned (Duncan, Pierce, Yao) are more relevant, particularly Pierce, who at this point is getting by on pure smarts and strength alone.
But yes -- I do think Beno is quicker than Rubio. I also think Nash is quicker than Rubio. Better? I don't know. He's a better shooter, not as good a passer. But I also wouldn't make Beno a top 5 pick.
And no -- I don't think Rubio outplayed Calderon in the slightest. This isn't only based on stats, it's on watching the games. Rubio just did not stand out to me. I didn't see every game, but in the ones I watched I had concerns about his athleticism in the NBA.
Really, I could be completely wrong about this. He could come in and be the next Jason Kidd. But all I know is that over the last 10 years of following the draft, the guys who bust are either 1) Knuckleheads, 2) Raw "potential" players who don't pan out or 3) guys who are supposed to get by on their intangibles and skill who aren't athletic enough for their position.
Rubio might be one of those special players, as Brick said. Or he could be a huge disappointment because he's a limited player.
But yes -- I do think Beno is quicker than Rubio. I also think Nash is quicker than Rubio. Better? I don't know. He's a better shooter, not as good a passer. But I also wouldn't make Beno a top 5 pick.
And no -- I don't think Rubio outplayed Calderon in the slightest. This isn't only based on stats, it's on watching the games. Rubio just did not stand out to me. I didn't see every game, but in the ones I watched I had concerns about his athleticism in the NBA.
Really, I could be completely wrong about this. He could come in and be the next Jason Kidd. But all I know is that over the last 10 years of following the draft, the guys who bust are either 1) Knuckleheads, 2) Raw "potential" players who don't pan out or 3) guys who are supposed to get by on their intangibles and skill who aren't athletic enough for their position.
Rubio might be one of those special players, as Brick said. Or he could be a huge disappointment because he's a limited player.
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Dime Dropper
All-Star
I think you're exagerrating Dirk to enhance your point. He is pretty quick, but to say he's the most athletic 7 footer other than Garnett is just ridiculous.
If Beno is quicker, it's absolutely marginal. Beno is a better shooter right now, that's where it ends. Rubio is better in every single other aspect of the game. Really, you have to be blind to think otherwise. He's a better passer, decision-maker, ball handler, defender, leader, far more intangibles.
Don't be ridiculous - it is quite clear that Rubio outplayed Calderon, who struggled throughout the tournament. Not just statistically but with plain impact as well. Why were you expecting him to stand out? He was 17, playing against the best players in the world! Half the USA players looked completely average, yet we know they're far better in the NBA. It means squat. He did his job and he did it well and without any fear whatsoever. It seems you are a little resentful of the hype Rubio is getting and you're letting this cloud your judgement. Find some Spanish message boards from over the summer, it was a common opinion that Rubio played far better than Calderon.
Rubio is athletic enough for the position. As well as being a decent athlete, he has great measurables - something you continue to blindly ignore. You also refuse to acknowledge the fact that he uses his body extremely well to manouever.
nbrans
All-Star
Hey, I really don't feel strongly enough about this either way to get in a pissing match with you.
On Dirk, there simply are not many 7 footers in NBA history who are as quick running down the floor, driving, and he's not even a slouch jumping. He's an extremely good and fluid athlete. There may be more 7 footers in the NBA who are quicker than him, but they're not springing to mind.
I agree with you that Rubio will probably be better than Beno even if Beno is quicker. That's not really saying much. Is he better enough to make Rubio the #2 or #3 pick in the draft? I don't know. I say no.
And I'm honestly completely tired of hearing how great he is for his age. Yes, he's good for his age. So was Patrick Mills, who was far more impressive against Team USA. And so, for that matter, were Sebastian Telfair and DeJuan Wagner, the other next great point guards of our generation. I'm not comparing these guys to Rubio directly because Rubio's accomplishments are obviously more significant, except to say that hype has a way of deflating. I think he has a limited ceiling because of his athleticism.
Calderon was struggling with injuries over the summer, and he still, at least from the games I saw, played like Jose Calderon, namely really well. I didn't see Rubio do anything that impressive. He gets points for just being average against Team USA? I dunno. Seems like a weak argument in his favor.
And ok, he uses his body well to maneuver. Happy?
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