A McLemore question

[hrdboild]

JT and Ben (and Nik) are different cases.

JT's offense is not relevant. But his stellar defense thus far is making a serious case for hmmmm...not so fast on trading him. He's doing the defensive roleplayer big man thing in a major way, and its one of the major things we'd be looking for from that position. I have no idea whether he can sustain, but if Jason could do what he is doing right now all year, you can be a winning team with that every night. Far from holding us back, he's filling a critical role.

Ben on the other hand is the very worst offensive shooting guard in the league right now. its absolutely astounding people are going to go all Jimmer with him. We have the very worst starting SG in the league, and people are going to fall on their swords for him. That makes no sense. If he were a 3rd string SG, then sure, hey, good athlete, popular in the lockerrroom, keep him around and see what happens. As a STARTER? Worst in the league. Worst in the history of the Sacto franchise at that position (actually the one position where we have a pretty proud history actually). 3.8pts on .263 shooting. A 0.7 PER. This from a player who has never had any NBA success. Its not as if we are sitting around saying, oh yeah, just a slow start, pretty soon he'll get back to being good like he was in... If he gets back to where he was last year you STILL need to replace him. The best and only argument for him to even be getting major rotation minutes is that hey, we don't have anything better. I can barely accept that, but its within reason. But now arguments that hey, we shouldn't even TRY to fix the positon are just bizarre. Not trying to fix that position is a betrayal of the other 11 guys out there trying to bust their butt to a surprise season. You're making every othe person on that roster work harder because of the state of 1 of the 5 positions. We're probably less than a week from seeing Boogie blatantly doubled by Ben's man because why not..

Ben was a rookie last year. And now we're four games into the season. I could make a long list of players who stunk up the joint for a year plus four and went on to have very successful careers. Jamal Crawford, Allan Houston, Goran Dragic, JR Smith, Eric Bledsoe, Kemba Walker. And that's just the guards. Kevin Durant shot 29% from 3 his rookie season. Rudy Gay doubled his scoring output from season 1 to season 2. I'm not saying SG isn't a problem, I'm just saying the sample size so far this season is too small to mean anything. If we can sign a free agent to push our young guys to the bench until they're ready, that's one thing. I don't have a problem with that. I just think it's too soon to talk "long-term" replacement and far too soon to talk "fire sale".

 

[Iced Espresso]

Many want Shumpert. Career 39% shooter 7 ppg. James Anderson for Sixer's career 40% 6 ppg. Caldwell-Pope is a career 38% 6ppg player. Avery Bradley career 43% and 9ppg. Those are some players who started at SG. Numbers aren't blowing anyone away.

Ben is struggling on offense, we all know that. But to say he's the worst SG based on offensive production alone is to ignore that there are starting guards who don't perform much better.

No one here is saying Ben is great. Some of us are just saying hold on a bit. No one improves every part of their game at once. He's shown that he can improve parts of his game and there are aspects to his game that is actually beneficial to the team right now. He's not hurting the team on offense with mental mistakes. Giving up multiple pieces to get Shumpert or Bradley would only minimally, if at all, improve offense. To get a pure offensive guy would hurt our defensive identity that we seem to be forging. No one is going to give you their legit 3 and D guy. So unless somebody unexpectedly becomes available, you develop Ben and Nik.

Sessions was supposed to be the safety net for our SG spot. If anyone, I'm disappointed in him to this point.

Ben had an entire season. Fate favors the bold, were not sitting on a 7'2 development player here, we are sitting on a guy who is often the better athlete and he can't score. His D is nothing like some of the guys out there.

I can translate what you said as having no faith in the rest of the team, so develop Ben. No thanks, I have faith in the rest of the team. I think they need a guy who is a very good defender and am not gonna hold everyone back because of some Fantasy Island dream Ben changes. He had his shot.

 

[hrdboild]

Ben had an entire season. Fate favors the bold, were not sitting on a 7'2 development player here, we are sitting on a guy who is often the better athlete and he can't score. His D is nothing like some of the guys out there.

I can translate what you said as having no faith in the rest of the team, so develop Ben. No thanks, I have faith in the rest of the team. I think they need a guy who is a very good defender and am not gonna hold everyone back because of some Fantasy Island dream Ben changes. He had his shot.

Ben had his shot? He was 20 years old last year. You can't be serious. You want to know what is a fantasy scenario? Finding a starting SG on the scrap heap who is both a very good defender and a high percentage shooter. There's a reason guys like McLemore and Nik Stauskas were taken in the lottery. Teams get players like that and they don't let them go.

 

[Livinthedream]

Ben had an entire season. Fate favors the bold, were not sitting on a 7'2 development player here, we are sitting on a guy who is often the better athlete and he can't score. His D is nothing like some of the guys out there.

I can translate what you said as having no faith in the rest of the team, so develop Ben. No thanks, I have faith in the rest of the team. I think they need a guy who is a very good defender and am not gonna hold everyone back because of some Fantasy Island dream Ben changes. He had his shot.

Not sure what you're translating. I'll just say it in simpler terms. If there was a guy we could have traded Ben and spare parts for that would have solved our SG problem, it would have already been done. Any SG that a team is willing to trade for Ben and spare parts is not worth it.

 

[SacKings384]

What's gotta be tough is Ben is getting FANTASTIC looks. They're leaving him open like they'd leave Tony Allen open. But he came in as a shooter. It's all in his head. I think that leads some people to think maybe if he can get some confidence he can turn it around.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Not sure what you're translating. I'll just say it in simpler terms. If there was a guy we could have traded Ben and spare parts for that would have solved our SG problem, it would have already been done. Any SG that a team is willing to trade for Ben and spare parts is not worth it.

OJ Mayo and let Nik develop behind him?

 

[randymoss1881]

OJ Mayo and let Nik develop behind him?

At this rate we would have to threw Ray in the deal for mayo. I'm down for it though a very good shooter/vet while Nok develops.

 

[twslam07]

Who would have thought Tyreke Evans would be out-shooting our two SGs (who were labeled as deep threats coming out of college) from 3pt land this season? It's ironic, but the irony won't last as I don't see this statement holding true after all 82 games have been played.

 

[Livinthedream]

OJ Mayo and let Nik develop behind him?

What's in it for Milwaukee? What do we have that they would want?

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

What's in it for Milwaukee? What do we have that they would want?

Ben, possibly. If they want to take a chance on a young athlete to possibly fit in with their very young and building team

 

[randymoss1881]

Ben, possibly. If they want to take a chance on a young athlete to possibly fit in with their very young and building team

Bucks fans are saying knights more likely to be traded cause management doesn't want to pay him. If want him more anyways cause he is a good defender and a very good team defender.

 

[Chupacabra]

I would like to commend Ben on improving his overall game by 50% since last season. A remarkable feet. Now hes actually above average on 1 end of the floor. If the young man could put together a stretch of games of shooting the ball well I think it might do alot for him.

 

[Iced Espresso]

What's in it for Milwaukee? What do we have that they would want?

Ben for Henson is probably reasonable to the Bucks, but he'd get buried behind JT and Landry. So I would not make that move unless we were sending JT out elsewhere. Mayo + Henson for JT & McLemore may be possible. I'm a little nervous with that move, but the Bucks may bite.

 

[Bricklayer]

Okay, list of all the major proven/starter type SG mediocrities I can construct decent arguments that they might be available:

The guys on teams in rebuild mode:
Kevin Martin (smart vet, been around , is bad D so lackadaisical its cancerous to our D?, Ben/Dwill for Martin/Bud?)
Corey Brewer (can play both spots, D with length. Shoots threes. Shoots them. Does not make them.)

Guys who lost their starting jobs/saw their rotation fortunes change:
Gerald Henderson
Randy Foye
Gerald Green

Tweeners looking to be paid as restricted FA:
Reggie Jackson ( Jackson + Perk for Sessions, Landry & Ben works financially, but have to wait until Sessions can be traded)
Brandon Knight (but Kidd using him and making it work)
Iman Shumpert (not tweener, but otherwise)

Cancers/Dumbasses
Eric Gordon (New Orleans just needs him gone, could get it done with DWill and Landry)
Dion Waiters (do not want, selfish undisciplined schmuck, can't shoot)
OJ Mayo (less fat this year, still not a winner or a fighter)
Swaggy P/other Lakers (one dimensional, no scrap)
JR Smith (idiot and criminal, here Cuz, thx for improving as a leader, meet J.R.! DWill might do it)

 

[captain bill]

At this point, his ceiling is probably a more athletic Doug Christie.

He can jump and dunk, and looks competent on D. He looks horrid on offense, got his pocket picked badly a couple times and, as we have all learned by now, can't shoot.

That said, he has the tools to be a great defender and could probably find a niche role in the offense. It seems like the coaching staff is leading him that way, but it will take time for him to settle into a new role.

 

[Bricklayer]

At this point, his ceiling is probably a more athletic Doug Christie.

He can jump and dunk, and looks competent on D. He looks horrid on offense, got his pocket picked badly a couple times and, as we have all learned by now, can't shoot.

That said, he has the tools to be a great defender and could probably find a niche role in the offense. It seems like the coaching staff is leading him that way, but it will take time for him to settle into a new role.

Doug was always a great ballhandler, played part time point as a rookie if I remember correctly. He could make plays for himself and others from the moment he entered the league. Ben will never do that. He's had to improve, and he has improved, to get to the point he's not a disaster dribbling the ball off his shoelaces. That's a giant gulf. Still SMH that we managed to draft a guy who could not shoot, dribble or defend as a rookie. That's hard to do.

 

[Iced Espresso]

Okay, list of all the major proven/starter type SG mediocrities I can construct decent arguments that they might be available:

The guys on teams in rebuild mode:
Kevin Martin (smart vet, been around , is bad D so lackadaisical its cancerous to our D?, Ben/Dwill for Martin/Bud?)
Corey Brewer (can play both spots, D with length. Shoots threes. Shoots them. Does not make them.)

Guys who lost their starting jobs/saw their rotation fortunes change:
Gerald Henderson
Randy Foye
Gerald Green

Tweeners looking to be paid as restricted FA:
Reggie Jackson ( Jackson + Perk for Sessions, Landry & Ben works financially, but have to wait until Sessions can be traded)
Brandon Knight (but Kidd using him and making it work)
Iman Shumpert (not tweener, but otherwise)

Cancers/Dumbasses
Eric Gordon (New Orleans just needs him gone, could get it done with DWill and Landry)
Dion Waiters (do not want, selfish undisciplined schmuck, can't shoot)
OJ Mayo (less fat this year, still not a winner or a fighter)
Swaggy P/other Lakers (one dimensional, no scrap)
JR Smith (idiot and criminal, here Cuz, thx for improving as a leader, meet J.R.! DWill might do it)

Shump looks like the guy. He can play D, is cheap, and is young.

 

[luckytkp]

Evan Turner could be another possibility, not a deep shooter, but decent scorer and cheap

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

How to get Henderson. That's the question. He's the "realistic target" that could blend right in with our defensive focus

 

[Iced Espresso]

How to get Henderson. That's the question. He's the "realistic target" that could blend right in with our defensive focus

Williams may get it done. Henderson has a player option next season for 6 million. Williams expires.

I still think Shump is the better deal, but you could possibly get Henderson and hold on to McLemore.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Williams may get it done. Henderson has a player option next season for 6 million. Williams expires.

I still think Shump is the better deal, but you could possibly get Henderson and hold on to McLemore.

In terms of personality and demeanor, I like Henderson to keep our improved chemistry rolling. I think he'd fit right in. Not much of an adjustment period. Just insert in starting lineup

 

[Iced Espresso]

In terms of personality and demeanor, I like Henderson to keep our improved chemistry rolling. I think he'd fit right in. Not much of an adjustment period. Just insert in starting lineup

We lose nothing if they take the expiring Williams.

If he plays real well he may be able to earn some of that 6 million, and we still have 2 young guys to develop behind him. If he plays badly, we're out 6 million in contract flexibility.

It's next season where the pain would happen, but he would also be an expiring 6 million at that point.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

We lose nothing if they take the expiring Williams.

If he plays real well he may be able to earn some of that 6 million, and we still have 2 young guys to develop behind him. If he plays badly, we're out 6 million in contract flexibility.

It's next season where the pain would happen, but he would also be an expiring 6 million at that point.

I'd envision him as the starter for this season and next, while Nik develops and matures physically

 

[Iced Espresso]

I'd envision him as the starter for this season and next, while Nik develops and matures physically

I'd make that move given our circumstance.

We could always look for other moves as the season develops too.

Shump is not really a financial gamble, but we'd lose McLemore for certain. Henderson would probably play his heart out given a starting job and another shot after his contract is about to end.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Pete D'Alessandro,....lets get Gerald Henderson and fill out a starting lineup for the here and now

 

[206Fan]

Williams may get it done. Henderson has a player option next season for 6 million. Williams expires.

I still think Shump is the better deal, but you could possibly get Henderson and hold on to McLemore.

If we could do that, that would be amazing. I'm not sure if Charlotte is willing to dump his contract right now. We would probably have to include McLemore.

Henderson isn't a 3pt shooter though.. he's never been.

 

[King Baller]

We are 3 and 1 playing against the cream of the Western Conference. You don't mess with that.

Now say 30 games in, around the end of Dec., Ben and Nik are still both in shooting slumps. Then you might consider making a move.

The guys you would want are not going to be available. You might be able to land one of the "lost their starting gig" group brick mentions above:

Guys who lost their starting jobs/saw their rotation fortunes change:
Gerald Henderson
Randy Foye
Gerald Green

I don't think a weak defender should be brought in. So IMO KMart is not an option.

The Best scenario is that Ben's or Nik's game comes around. I think this is likely to happen. Unless you think BOTH guys are the 2nd and 3rd coming of Quincy Douby.

 

[Iced Espresso]

If we could do that, that would be amazing. I'm not sure if Charlotte is willing to dump his contract right now. We would probably have to include McLemore.

Henderson isn't a 3pt shooter though.. he's never been.

I'm talking with Charlotte guys, some of them would be thrilled to get out of Henderson's contract next season. Williams would see minutes at the 3 too. This is something to move on now, because no reason to take Henderson's contract if we fall behind. This very well may be a simple deal, where they part ways just to get out of his contract next season, and also acquire a guy that would see mins on the floor.

 

[206Fan]

I don't know why people are so quick to write off Ben. Does anyone stop and think for a second that maybe our guard's defenses have been the key to our entire defense?? Last year IT and Ben couldn't guard their man for squad, which always forced our bigs to come around and help. Now we have a good defender in Collison and Ben.

Let our team play out until AT LEAST December before we start talking about shipping Ben and JT... Not willing to give up Ben right now. Much more better defender than K-Mart and all those guys will ever be.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't know why people are so quick to write off Ben. Does anyone stop and think for a second that maybe our guard's defenses have been the key to our entire defense?? Last year IT and Ben couldn't guard their man for squad, which always forced our bigs to come around and help. Now we have a good defender in Collison and Ben.

Let our team play out until AT LEAST December before we start talking about shipping Ben and JT... Not willing to give up Ben right now. Much more better defender than K-Mart and all those guys will ever be.

The claims of Ben's defense are getting incredibly overwrought. I think there is a vested interest to pretend he's Bruce Bowen. He's not. And not even Bruce Bowen would have gotten time let alone starts in the NBA shooting .250 and averaging 3ppg.