A McLemore question

[Kingster]

I'm not thinking about McLemore being a defensive stopper. He hasn't demonstrated he could do that. I just think he's in his head, doesn't have the confidence, and I don't think there's any way we can know if he's going to come out of it or not. He's known to be a very hard worker. Hopefully, he can break through the ice and and get hot against Denver.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I think people are getting just a touch carried away with a small improvement in his defense mentioning all NBA elite defenders.

I've got to push back on this because, quite to the contrary, it doesn't look to me like anybody's getting carried away, with the possible exception of dude12. This thread has, thus far, consisted of about six people saying that McLemore can be good defensively, and everybody else saying, "Not really."

 

[IfAt1st]

I'm just not seeing where all this talk about Ben's defense is coming from.

Klay had an off night behind the 3pt line but was able to get into the lane almost at will against him.

Matthews went 1-7 beyond the arc but overpowered Ben in the post and made nearly 100% of his shots from 2 point land.

Redick was wide open all game and went 2-10 from beyond the arc. Very uncharacteristic of him.

He's been lucky that 3 great 3 point shooters have been cold against him or else we might be 0-3. I will say that he's been better than he was last year where he looked completely lost. At least right now he looks somewhat competent but he's not even close to even being average right now.

Ding ding ding.

These "strong Kings defense" and "Ben is defending well" tropes are illusions.

On normal nights, The Kings would have been blown out by the open 3-pointers they (and Ben) are giving up.

Annointing Ben a good defender (on the lines of remotely excusing his offensive ineptitude) will cost the Kings too many games before the experiment of BMac as a starter on an NBA team will be over, I predict, within 3 weeks' time.

 

[Livinthedream]

I think people are getting a little carried away with their bias. It's perfectly normal to prefer one player over another for whatever reason. But to start calling them lucky when things go their way is overboard.

The enemy of the outside shot is tired legs. If a 3 point shooter has to work hard to get open, he will get tired more easily and his percentage will drop. We limit 3 top 10 offenses to under 100 points and down to around 40% shooting and it's luck because we don't like one of the players? Cmon man! We made those teams work for their buckets.

As far as Reddick being open, the Clippers made a concerted effort to run him off multiple screens to give him space. He wasn't forgotten about and just left open. The one play Ben left Reddick open that I can remember is when Ben gambled to stop penetration. The ball got kicked out. It wasn't a clueless moment. It was a gamble. Ben and Nik played solid D that game.

As far as Klay getting to the basket on our team, I mentioned before that it was in our gamelan to make Klay drive rather than shoot the three. Funnel him into the bigs. Team defense...

 

[twslam07]

I'm not sure that many people think McLemore is a "good" defender, but he has shown so far that he is an "improved" defender. Yeah, these SGs he has played against seemed to be struggling with their shot, but McLemore did a good job of staying close and at least getting a hand up versus last year where he was nowhere to be found.

 

[dude12]

I've got to push back on this because, quite to the contrary, it doesn't look to me like anybody's getting carried away, with the possible exception of dude12. This thread has, thus far, consisted of about six people saying that McLemore can be good defensively, and everybody else saying, "Not really."

How so? You didn't say he could become the next Tony Allen but neither did I. I do think he's going to be better defensively than Nik and he is already.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

In the sense of being willing to trade Stauskas three games in; I don't think it's unreasonable to classify that as taking things too far.

 

[dude12]

In the sense of being willing to trade Stauskas three games in; I don't think it's unreasonable to classify that as taking things too far.

I understand that ....I'm just saying that IF we were to trade one of the SGs for a vet like KMart, I think KMart would replace what Nik is supposed to bring and he would do it better right now. Doesn't matter as its not going to happen. But I'm also not as enamored of Nik as others. I like him but he's got a long ways to go.

 

[hrdboild]

It's still way too early to talk about trading Ben or Nik. If you can get an All Star at a position of need, sure you need to give up something. But not for an end of his career journeyman like Kevin Martin. I'm not even sure where we would find shots for Martin and his defense would be a step backward. Stauskas got his "welcome to the NBA rook" initiation today. But his defense has been better than expected as well (for me anyway, I know others believed in him on that end). Ben missed a couple easy shots but made one of them for another 2-5 night. He's not killing us out there offensively and he will heat up at some point. I always thought he had "better than average" defender potential, he just played too fast and out of control last year. The whole team has turned it around defensively this year and if you go up and down the lineup you have to give credit to all of them.

 

[Prince_XY]

I'm not even sure where we would find shots for Martin and his defense would be a step backward.

Bullseye.

This I think will be a very big concern when we talk about trading for Martin.

I'd rather rent the very cheap Terrence Williams for a few days at a time just to know if we're really "THAT MUCH DEFICIENT" at the SG position.

 

[HndsmCelt]

I actually really like some of what I am seeing out of Ben. The guy is figuring out how to fit into the line up and contribute while NOT shooting well OR taking very many shots. His effort on defense is over the top even if his defense skills are less than steller.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Bullseye.

This I think will be a very big concern when we talk about trading for Martin.

I'd rather rent the very cheap Terrence Williams for a few days at a time just to know if we're really "THAT MUCH DEFICIENT" at the SG position.

If a trade comes up and Ben is moved, I'd still be very interested in taking a second look at T-Will

 

[Prince_XY]

I actually really like some of what I am seeing out of Ben. The guy is figuring out how to fit into the line up and contribute while NOT shooting well OR taking very many shots. His effort on defense is over the top even if his defense skills are less than seller.

I am seeing the same thing. McLemore's effort in defense was awesome for the past 4 games and compared to last season. Stauskas effort this last game against Denver was also over the top. Our young guys are trying their hardest.

 

[Bricklayer]

Look people. we're winning with defense, which is great. GREAT.

We are also shooting .409 on the season, and are dead last in 3pt shooting. We absolutely MUST improve thus numbers not just a little, but DRAMATICALLY. The SG position is easily the most obvious place to do that.

 

[Tetsujin]

Look people. we're winning with defense, which is great. GREAT.

We are also shooting .409 on the season, and are dead last in 3pt shooting. We absolutely MUST improve thus numbers not just a little, but DRAMATICALLY. The SG position is easily the most obvious place to do that.

Well Ben did hit another contested three tonight but this one only had one hand in his face so I guess that counts as an improvement.

 

[hrdboild]

Look people. we're winning with defense, which is great. GREAT.

We are also shooting .409 on the season, and are dead last in 3pt shooting. We absolutely MUST improve thus numbers not just a little, but DRAMATICALLY. The SG position is easily the most obvious place to do that.

I think we need to wait a little longer before replacing Ben and Nik in the rotation. The point is we are winning. Both of these guys were drafted to knock down threes. Forget last year, a lot went wrong last year. It's too early to start expending assets to fix a problem which may not be a problem at all three weeks from now.

 

[Albatros]

Nik was given the rookie treatment by the refs against Denver, but if you can't defend without fouling you're going to sit down so I give coach credit for taking him out of that environment. There's no rush for Nik but we need to address SG someway somehow. Ray struggles with his shot too so I don't see that being the answer.

 

[Padrino]

Look people. we're winning with defense, which is great. GREAT.

We are also shooting .409 on the season, and are dead last in 3pt shooting. We absolutely MUST improve thus numbers not just a little, but DRAMATICALLY. The SG position is easily the most obvious place to do that.

indeed. as long as the kings continue to play .500+ ball (and as long as ben/nik remain ice cold from downtown), i fully expect the front office to do something to improve production from the SG position, even if it means moving mclemore back to the bench and bumping stauskas out of the regular rotation. if the narrative winds truly do start changing, and if kings fans begin to get excited about the prospect of a phoenix-like surprise season, you can bet that ranadive/d'allesandro/malone will seize the opportunity to pursue a "win now" course of action. there have been plenty of signs that "win now" is already on their minds; most of us just didn't think the roster had it in them to deliver. it remains to be seen how sustainable this is, but there are plenty of positives to carry forward, and improvements still to make...

 

[macadocious]

I think Ben's defense has gotten better each game. I thought minus one or two breakdowns (one bad one for sure, but it was a broken play) he was stellar.

I was also really paying attention to his jumper. He is absolutely over thinking his wide open jump shots.

 

[Entity]

the one he made last night was quick catch and shoot.

 

[macadocious]

On his wide open shots he is slowing down his shot everything from the legs, to his arm movement. That is 100% the sign of someone who is not confident their shot will go in. It's the basketball equivalent of a pitcher aiming instead of throwing.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

There are a lot of teams out there underachieving with their shooting percentages early in the season. There are of course exceptions, but it seems like the league for the most part is a bit slow shooting-wise out of the gate.

I'm willing to give Ben and JT time to get into a groove offensively because they are giving us a boost defensively. JT's shooting percentages have traditionally been much higher and I highly doubt McLemore regresses in his shooting after an offseason's worth of work.

 

[VF21]

..you can bet that ranadive/d'allesandro/malone will seize the opportunity to pursue a "win now" course of action. there have been plenty of signs that "win now" is already on their minds...

You mean besides Vivek coming right out and saying that this year is "about wins and losses"?

 

[Bricklayer]

There are a lot of teams out there underachieving with their shooting percentages early in the season. There are of course exceptions, but it seems like the league for the most part is a bit slow shooting-wise out of the gate.

I'm willing to give Ben and JT time to get into a groove offensively because they are giving us a boost defensively. JT's shooting percentages have traditionally been much higher and I highly doubt McLemore regresses in his shooting after an offseason's worth of work.

JT and Ben (and Nik) are different cases.

JT's offense is not relevant. But his stellar defense thus far is making a serious case for hmmmm...not so fast on trading him. He's doing the defensive roleplayer big man thing in a major way, and its one of the major things we'd be looking for from that position. I have no idea whether he can sustain, but if Jason could do what he is doing right now all year, you can be a winning team with that every night. Far from holding us back, he's filling a critical role.

Ben on the other hand is the very worst offensive shooting guard in the league right now. its absolutely astounding people are going to go all Jimmer with him. We have the very worst starting SG in the league, and people are going to fall on their swords for him. That makes no sense. If he were a 3rd string SG, then sure, hey, good athlete, popular in the lockerrroom, keep him around and see what happens. As a STARTER? Worst in the league. Worst in the history of the Sacto franchise at that position (actually the one position where we have a pretty proud history actually). 3.8pts on .263 shooting. A 0.7 PER. This from a player who has never had any NBA success. Its not as if we are sitting around saying, oh yeah, just a slow start, pretty soon he'll get back to being good like he was in... If he gets back to where he was last year you STILL need to replace him. The best and only argument for him to even be getting major rotation minutes is that hey, we don't have anything better. I can barely accept that, but its within reason. But now arguments that hey, we shouldn't even TRY to fix the positon are just bizarre. Not trying to fix that position is a betrayal of the other 11 guys out there trying to bust their butt to a surprise season. You're making every othe person on that roster work harder because of the state of 1 of the 5 positions. We're probably less than a week from seeing Boogie blatantly doubled by Ben's man because why not..

 

[GQ_Gabriel]

Dear Ben,

All we need you to do is keep hustling, you've been playing solid defense for the most part aside from the occasional lapses, and please start making your open shots. Your shot-making can open a whole new dimension for our marquee players.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Eh, I think that there's a pretty significant demarcation between saying, "Hey, this guy doesn't suck that bad, and he is playing pretty decent defense, after all," and going "Full Jimmer." Your mileage obviously varies, but I'm curious as to what perspective causes one to view those two phenomena as equivalent?

 

[206Fan]

JT and Ben (and Nik) are different cases.

JT's offense is not relevant. But his stellar defense thus far is making a serious case for hmmmm...not so fast on trading him. He's doing the defensive roleplayer big man thing in a major way, and its one of the major things we'd be looking for from that position. I have no idea whether he can sustain, but if Jason could do what he is doing right now all year, you can be a winning team with that every night. Far from holding us back, he's filling a critical role.

Ben on the other hand is the very worst offensive shooting guard in the league right now. its absolutely astounding people are going to go all Jimmer with him. We have the very worst starting SG in the league, and people are going to fall on their swords for him. That makes no sense. If he were a 3rd string SG, then sure, hey, good athlete, popular in the lockerrroom, keep him around and see what happens. As a STARTER? Worst in the league. Worst in the history of the Sacto franchise at that position (actually the one position where we have a pretty proud history actually). 3.8pts on .263 shooting. A 0.7 PER. This from a player who has never had any NBA success. Its not as if we are sitting around saying, oh yeah, just a slow start, pretty soon he'll get back to being good like he was in... If he gets back to where he was last year you STILL need to replace him. The best and only argument for him to even be getting major rotation minutes is that hey, we don't have anything better. I can barely accept that, but its within reason. But now arguments that hey, we shouldn't even TRY to fix the positon are just bizarre. Not trying to fix that position is a betrayal of the other 11 guys out there trying to bust their butt to a surprise season. You're making every othe person on that roster work harder because of the state of 1 of the 5 positions. We're probably less than a week from seeing Boogie blatantly doubled by Ben's man because why not..

I agree with this. We should upgrade the SG position as soon as we can, but the question is, with who? Ben will continue to start until Nik shows he can AT LEAST consistently score. Ben's defense is much better than Nik's at this point which gives him the slight edge. I don't want to see a repeat of last year where all the SGs were attacking against Ben because he was a rookie and a poor defender. If we put Nik out there, starting SGs will try to take advantage of him. I saw a lot of help defense from our bigs when Nik was getting posted up. Against good SGs, they'll immediately feed the ball to their open big.

I think our starting unit has enough offense that we don't need to immediately worry about replacing Ben with Nik..yet.

Do you think there are realistic SGs that can knock down their open shots and provide D available for a trade?

 

[Bricklayer]

Do you think there are realistic SGs that can knock down their open shots and provide D available for a trade?

That is of course an ongoing discussion, but I'll make a list a bit later after the grades/administrative things are done. Of course the fact of the matter is that true elite 3 and D guys are rare and valued. But I don't think we need an elite SG. In fact given our assets and the way everything is going I don't think we need much more than just a solid contributing one that we can trust every night just to contribute. I think we have our winning assets in town. Maybe not enough to win a title, but enough to win and compete every night and build a foundation. I just want to patch up all the holes around with solid pieces so that we don't sabotage ourselves, so that the other team has to beat us, we don't beat ourselves or have anything they can exploit.

 

[Iced Espresso]

That is of course an ongoing discussion, but I'll make a list a bit later after the grades/administrative things are done. Of course the fact of the matter is that true elite 3 and D guys are rare and valued. But I don't think we need an elite SG. In fact given our assets and the way everything is going I don't think we need much more than just a solid contributing one that we can trust every night just to contribute. I think we have our winning assets in town. Maybe not enough to win a title, but enough to win and compete every night and build a foundation. I just want to patch up all the holes around with solid pieces so that we don't sabotage ourselves, so that the other team has to beat us, we don't beat ourselves or have anything they can exploit.

Looking forward to that list.

We don't have much cap flexibility, I'm over Ben if he is what it takes to get us someone decent back sign me up. I'd rather go defensive though, Shumpert in New York is cheap and young. Thabo is 4 million in Atlanta.

Basically fellas if we move Ben it's gonna have to be 4 million or less for his replacement. Unless we make a multi player move.

 

[Livinthedream]

Many want Shumpert. Career 39% shooter 7 ppg. James Anderson for Sixer's career 40% 6 ppg. Caldwell-Pope is a career 38% 6ppg player. Avery Bradley career 43% and 9ppg. Those are some players who started at SG. Numbers aren't blowing anyone away.

Ben is struggling on offense, we all know that. But to say he's the worst SG based on offensive production alone is to ignore that there are starting guards who don't perform much better.

No one here is saying Ben is great. Some of us are just saying hold on a bit. No one improves every part of their game at once. He's shown that he can improve parts of his game and there are aspects to his game that is actually beneficial to the team right now. He's not hurting the team on offense with mental mistakes. Giving up multiple pieces to get Shumpert or Bradley would only minimally, if at all, improve offense. To get a pure offensive guy would hurt our defensive identity that we seem to be forging. No one is going to give you their legit 3 and D guy. So unless somebody unexpectedly becomes available, you develop Ben and Nik.

Sessions was supposed to be the safety net for our SG spot. If anyone, I'm disappointed in him to this point.