49ers thread for 2008-2009

uolj

uolj

Starter
#121
#121
SLAB said:
Heavy sigh...

They show they can play, but then it goes for naught.

I really think its time to move on from Nolan...Ive always been a supporter, but the collapse today changes my mind.
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I was a supporter up until this offseason. Now I'm ambivalent. He's done a lot of things I like, but several that I scratch my head about.

His challenges today were pretty bad. He missed chaleenging two deep passes by the Eagles that were likely not catches (at least one of which was a third down play that led to a touchdown), and instead challenged two plays that were called correctly. I don't know who's watching the tape in their booth but that person needs to be doing a better job and/or Nolan needs to listen to him/her.

The defense couldn't stop the Eagles. That was pretty damn frustrating. Everything else was :shrug:.

I don't usually complain about officiating, but I thought the 49ers got unlucky with several important calls going against them (incorrectly in my opinion). The game could have easily turned out differently. :(
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#122
#122
If you read Voisin's column today, I think she makes a VERY good point. The idea of suddenly NOT getting the ball to Frank Gore is puzzling at the least and totally mind-boggling if you try and figure it out.

The play I screamed about earlier was exactly the kind of showboat razzle-dazzle we did NOT need. Had they simply put the ball in Gore's hands we might well be celebrating another win instead of trying still to figure out what's wrong.

I've tried to be open-minded about Nolan but I have to wonder just how much of that was misplaced dedication because of his father. He is NOT his father and he's not Bill Walsh or anyone else I trust to do the right thing with the team.

But that begs the question...If we get rid of Nolan who do we bring in to right the ship before it crashes on Seal Rock and sinks?
 
SLAB

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#123
#123
It won't happen, but I would actually want Lane Kiffin to come give it a go.

I don't care what happened with Al Davis, but he had his players playing hard his 'entire' 20 game career. He took Art Shell's abysmal mess from a year before and turned them into a group of players that went out and gave it their all.

At this point though, the only downgrade would be Dennis Erickson.
:eek:
 
Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#124
#124
VF21 said:
But that begs the question...If we get rid of Nolan who do we bring in to right the ship before it crashes on Seal Rock and sinks?
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We throw a lot of money at Cowher. It can be his kinda team. 3-4 defense, hard running RB.

No more rookies learning on the job.
 
nebs

nebs

Starter
#125
#125
Maybe Holmgren?

Someone from that Bill Walsh tree.. I'd even entertain the idea of Brian Billick.... I like his demeanor.


My dream scenario would be Mike Shanahan. Denver's not letting him go though.

Cowher would be cool but I don't see him pulling the trigger on coming out here.
 
est.1999

est.1999

Starter
#126
#126
bring in holmgren as gm and cowher as head coach. Promote singletary to DC and keep martz as OC. Manusky can clean out his office along with coach nowin. Does he even deserve to be called a coach? Seriously I can't stand coach nowin/suit!
 
Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#127
#127
I want to preface this by saying that Nolan isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I also don't think that there's a franchise QB in this year's draft, assuming that the Smith pick didn't pan out.

That being said, I think Holmgren's a little long in the tooth, and JT O'Sullivan doesn't seem to be the QB of the future.

Where do the Niners go? My take:

Hold on to Nolan - for now. A new OC every year downright stinks. Try getting continuity here.
Defense - Not bad, could be better. Big Nickel? No thanks. A classic 3-4 works wonders, if the right pieces are in place.

I'll revisit this towards the end of the season, but for now I'll just gnash and wail with every loss, and cheer on for every win.

Thoughts?
 
uolj

uolj

Starter
#128
#128
I like Cowher a lot and would be thrilled if he ended up in San Francisco.

I'm not a fan of Martz but I also realize that changing offenses every year sucks, too. If Nolan is gone and we need a new QB, though, I don't see why we would need to keep Martz around.

I have no answers at this point. My hope is that the 49ers start winning the close games (like they did two years ago) and get something rolling so we can see some continuity and improvement next year.
 
Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#129
#129
Is there general frustration in SF with Martz's system?

Historically it's been pretty productive, and I noticed that the Niners did a good job of running out of the 2 TE set.
 
uolj

uolj

Starter
#130
#130
Spike said:
Is there general frustration in SF with Martz's system?

Historically it's been pretty productive, and I noticed that the Niners did a good job of running out of the 2 TE set.
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I don't know. I don't have the pulse of the SF fans.

I just know that I'd prefer a Norv Turner style offense to a Martz style offense, but if Martz system works then it gets a thumbs up from me.

I do like the two tight end thing he's doing. But for whatever reason they weren't able to move the ball at all in the fourth quarter. That's the opposite of what I'd prefer and what was happening a couple years ago.
 
est.1999

est.1999

Starter
#131
#131
the difference with this year and 2006 is norv understanding that gore was the focal point of this offense. Also we had alex who took care of the ball. I know he had 16 int's but JT has been getting very costly turnovers at the worst possible times.
 
SLAB

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#133
#133
Its painful watching O'Sullivan trying to win games/make big plays at important parts of the game...He is a turnover machine.

Fumble...Fumble...Interception...Fumble...Interception.

At least I expect it now.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#134
#134
As someone for whom the Giants are a local area team, let me just say that J.T. O'Sullivan = idiot. Not sure I have seen a starting QB make such bad decisions throughout a game. Just sad. And I say that as someone for whom Brett all time interception chucker Favre leads the other local team.
 
SLAB

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#135
#135
Pam Oliver says no one except JTO's backups are talking to him/gesturing to him or doing anything to/for him after his blunders and failures.

Hopefully they've lost faith so we can try Hill out.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#136
#136
I feel sorry for O'Sullivan. I think he's in over his head, I don't think he's getting any kind of leadership at all from the coaches and our line isn't doing much to give him time or confidence.

Having said that, it's pretty clear he's not going to be an "excellent QB" despite what Mike Martz says. :rolleyes:

As far as what Pam Oliver says, it's pretty customary for players to leave QBs alone when they're not doing well so I wouldn't read too much into that scenario.

Mike Nolan is the real idiot. And if I - the ultimate defender of him - have come to that conclusion, I think it has to be clear to the rest of the planet. At this point, I'd actually have no problem at all with bringing in Al Davis' latest sacrifice.

Hey, Lane? Wanna come across the bay?

GO NINERS!!!
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#137
#137
You can bring in Belichick as your coach and you are still going to lose if your quarterback runs around like a panicstricken gerbil, runs when he should pass, passes when he should run, has no pocket presence, refuses to tuck the ball, does not know how to throw the ball away, and appears to be so colorblind he cannot tell a home jersey from an away jersey.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#138
#138
Granted. BUT Nolan has done little to nothing to instill any kind of confidence in O'Sullivan, who was never really meant to be a starting QB. Nolan has the offensive judgment of your said panicsticken gerbil, which became painfully obvious when he suddenly decided to ignore Gore last week and try to get the passing game going. And then, when a win was actually within our grasp, instead of handing off to Gore he called a double-reverse that was ill-advised, ill-conceived and a miserable failure.

O'Sullivan isn't calling his own plays. That's not how Mike Nolan works.

I still think J.T. is a step up from Alex Smith, for whom my lack of anything remotely resembling confidence or respect is well known. Alex Smith was a big mistake as our #1 draft pick and getting him off the team and out of town is the only way to be sure TPTB don't try to salvage him one more time.

Let O'Sullivan do his worst. We get another decent draft pick and maybe, just maybe, if the gods of football are kind, we'll find a QB that might actually be worth a damn... Or not.

These are the 49ers...

:)
 
SLAB

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#139
#139
O'Sullivan isn't calling his own plays. That's not how Mike Nolan works.
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I want Nolan gone, but Ill put horrible playcalling on Martz.

Razzle-dazzle, shifting, confusion, bombs...Thats just how he functions.
 
BawLa

BawLa

Starter
#140
#140
I don't get why everyone is targeting Nolan and Martz when this has all been a performance letdown. JTO has thrown 10 interceptions in our 5 losses. He has thrown 0 in our two wins. Furthermore, every single interception he has thrown has been right when we had or just got momentum in the football game. Not to mention 3 or 4 of those interceptions were in the opponent's endzone. Our offensive line couldn't block a mannequin in JC Penny. Our defensive line needs help too.


So you fire Nolan and/or Martz. Who you gonna bring in? Praying that Cowher wants to come out of retirement to coach for us? More than likely you bring in the next set of Eric Dickersons. No thank you. Unless you could guarantee me Bill Cowher, I'd rather keep what we got.

Which brings up the point, if you fire Nolan and/or Martz then you are effectively wasting 2 - 3 years off of your best players. Because it will take at least 2 - 3 years to bring in a new coach, new personell and get used to the new system. Frank will be 27/28, Clements will be 30/31, J. Smith will be 31/32, Nedney will be 37/38. Not really worried about P.Willy and V.D., they will be young for a while.


Thats why...IMHO...it makes so much more sense to keep Nolan AND Martz around for another year after making key offseason moves.

1. Get a QB (might be able to avoid this if Hill gets his fair shake this year)
2. Upgrade 2 O-line spots
3. Upgrade 1 D-line spot

All of these can be accomplished in one offseason if the FO is dedicated. The first 2 - 3 picks in the draft will help, they just need to target 1 or 2 free agents.
 
S

swisshh

Starter
#141
#141
Not to mention 3 or 4 of those interceptions were in the opponent's endzone.
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And that is why people blame Martz. His offensive system sucks in the redzone. All his QBs has had a tendecy to throw endzone picks, because it is the product of long routes with less room to run. A 2 or 3 deep Defense can patrol an endzone laterally and cut in front of the deep ends and outs. Many of those INTs should have been run plays that Martz never calls.

QB fumbles are also a part of his offense, as he doesn't like to keep extra pass protection.

Not that JTO hasn't been horrid.
 
BawLa

BawLa

Starter
#142
#142
swisshh said:
And that is why people blame Martz. His offensive system sucks in the redzone. All his QBs has had a tendecy to throw endzone picks, because it is the product of long routes with less room to run. A 2 or 3 deep Defense can patrol an endzone laterally and cut in front of the deep ends and outs. Many of those INTs should have been run plays that Martz never calls.

QB fumbles are also a part of his offense, as he doesn't like to keep extra pass protection.

Not that JTO hasn't been horrid.
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I disagree. Kitna, Bulger and Warner are all high interception QBs. Look at their career stats before and after their years under Martz. I guess you can fault Martz for not helping his QBs learn from their mistakes.

Not only that, but the worst part is Martz can't call run plays on the goal line because our offensive line gets manhandled. You can't run the ball if you can't get push and open holes. Sad to say it but we would be better off if we had kept Kwame Harris. Barry Sims is absolutely terrible at everything. At least Kwame could run block.
 
Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#143
#143
VF21 said:
Let O'Sullivan do his worst. We get another decent draft pick and maybe, just maybe, if the gods of football are kind, we'll find a QB that might actually be worth a damn... Or not.

These are the 49ers...

:)
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If we do, it'll have to be through free agency, because I don't think this year's draftable QBs are "franchise" quality.

Sigh. What a game. It seemed like the DBs were trying to jump Manning's routes every time, and the WRs couldn't hold on to the ball when a good pass actually was made.
 
Variant

Variant

Starter
#144
#144
One thing that's been frustrating me in particular (in addition to the things others have mentioned here) is all of the miscues / penalties. I know the Giants had their share today as well, but it's been a reoccurring theme for the Niners all season. Is it coincidence or just a flat out lack of discipline (which would be a direct reflection of the coaching)? Maybe there's too much turnover in the line and other positions making it difficult to build a cohesive unit, I dunno--don't follow it closely enough. But without fail they seem to find a way to start every drive with a 5-10 yard penalty and nullify most big plays with some holding call...

And our defense which played so well last year and still has many of the same playmakers and level of talent... why the big drop off? And in typical 49ers trademark fashion, the line on both sides of the ball can't do squat. Sacks galore for the other team, and almost zero pressure on opposing quarterbacks. It's the same old story.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#145
#145
I feel like I should stand up and announce, "Hello. My name is VF21 and I'm a 49er fan..."

;)

As I read this thread, one thing comes through loud and clear. We ARE fans and we're really frustrated about what we're seeing/not seeing from the team/organization.

I have to agree with Variant that there is a recurring theme in the "flat out lack of discipline." And, to extend that, I think there's a pervasive lack of focus and intensity. A lot of the "miscues/penalties" are careless errors or total lapses in anything resembling football acumen.

Regardless of how much or how little talent you have, if you don't have focus and intensity, which is reinforced by discipline from good strong coaching, you have ... well, exactly what we're seeing right now from our Niners.
 
est.1999

est.1999

Starter
#146
#146
you gotta fire Nolan. They don't wanna play for him or have given up on his so called dispicable game plans. Look at the rams after firing linehan. They now have some continuity and they play with a heck of a lot more confidence. They just beat the redskins and cowboys. I know the cowboys are on a freefall and I love it but 34-14? I don't care how you slice it up that was impressive. Nolan is a moron please get rid of him after we lose to the seachickens at home next week!
 
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VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#150
#150
Works for me, if only because firing the head coach is ALWAYS what front offices do when things look this bad.

Of course, I learned long ago not to put too much stock in ESPN rumors.

;)
 
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