Certainly a take that all our bad defense today was because of Fox.
[Game] 39/82: Kings @ Bulls 12 JAN 2025, 12:30pm PT/3:30pm ET
- Thread starter Mr. S£im Citrus
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Certainly a take that all our bad defense today was because of Fox.
twslam07
All-Star
Especially when our DRTG was 104.1 today with Fox on the floor (our DRTG for the entire game was 116.7). As a comparison, Monk’s DRTG was 124.4 today.
I believe I had that.
sactowndog
All-Star
I don’t recall saying that. I believe I said the team plays better defense without him.
sactowndog
All-Star
not using my stats but I don’t think you can say Fox is >>> than Monk
Defense
D-EPM: Fox = +0.1 / Monk = -0.9
D-DARKO: Fox = +0.0 / Monk = -1.1
D-LEBRON: Fox = -0.3 / Monk = -0.1
D-RAPM: Fox = -0.3 / Monk = -2.0
D-VPM: Fox = -0.1 / Monk = -0.5
Those numbers definitely don't appear to support the notion that Fox is a good defender (which I'm not even sure anyone has said), but still clearly better than Monk. I'm not even sure it's particularly close.
Double-K
Starter
Ok maybe I've spoken a bit too hastily earlier. I guess my longer winded answer would be, if there is a deal to get us a wing that can fix our length problem, I would consider giving them Monk.
Team plays better defense without him=Fox is the reason we play bad defense.
You can say it, it's fine. Have conviction in your take
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
bunch of Chicago deep dish pizza
megapoxy
Starter
Kings continue their revenge tour in the East.
Last season we lost against the Celtics with that late foul no call for Colby when getting the offensive rebound at the end. Celtics didn't even care winning that much (had clinched 1st spot in the whole NBA) using reserves at the end, while the Kings were pushing for a better spot in the play in/play off.
Then vs Bulls we had one of the most disappointing defeats last season at G1C with a late comeback fueled by DDR mostly (and White and Dosunmu that were out today).
Next one is against the Bucks that we had the most painful loss of the season with that Lillard buzzer beater from far away. This was the match that went to overtime due to our missed clutch free throws, Monk tweeting it's his fault and MB bringing the laptop in the presser. That match and the next one at Phoenix allowing a huge comeback again in the end were devastating defeats. I don't know if it's a coincidence but like last year we play at Milwaukee in 14th of January.
Regarding today... it was the game we had the worst defense and the less steals under DC as a coach (4), despite seeing some good blitzes (or how they are called). We conceded many 3s but it wasn't due to "lazy defense" Bulls were moving the ball pretty well and some of their shots were well guarded but were still made. On a bright note we shared the ball, were quite unselfish, without Domas being the only co-ordinator in offense. With DC as a head coach we have 29.9 assists per game, and overall a 8-3 record when dishing 30+ assists if I saw correctly before browsing twitter.
Still I agree that Keon/Devin should get more playing time now that the team is full healthy, Huerter was good today in the very limited time he spent on the floor (7pts 4ast 3rebs in 10') so it should be more time to rest for Fox/Monk/DDR I think instead.
I think a month ago losing the 3point battle that much like today would mean a double digit defeat. Try to respond to a made three of them with a missed three of our own each time.
Last season we lost against the Celtics with that late foul no call for Colby when getting the offensive rebound at the end. Celtics didn't even care winning that much (had clinched 1st spot in the whole NBA) using reserves at the end, while the Kings were pushing for a better spot in the play in/play off.
Then vs Bulls we had one of the most disappointing defeats last season at G1C with a late comeback fueled by DDR mostly (and White and Dosunmu that were out today).
Next one is against the Bucks that we had the most painful loss of the season with that Lillard buzzer beater from far away. This was the match that went to overtime due to our missed clutch free throws, Monk tweeting it's his fault and MB bringing the laptop in the presser. That match and the next one at Phoenix allowing a huge comeback again in the end were devastating defeats. I don't know if it's a coincidence but like last year we play at Milwaukee in 14th of January.
Regarding today... it was the game we had the worst defense and the less steals under DC as a coach (4), despite seeing some good blitzes (or how they are called). We conceded many 3s but it wasn't due to "lazy defense" Bulls were moving the ball pretty well and some of their shots were well guarded but were still made. On a bright note we shared the ball, were quite unselfish, without Domas being the only co-ordinator in offense. With DC as a head coach we have 29.9 assists per game, and overall a 8-3 record when dishing 30+ assists if I saw correctly before browsing twitter.
Still I agree that Keon/Devin should get more playing time now that the team is full healthy, Huerter was good today in the very limited time he spent on the floor (7pts 4ast 3rebs in 10') so it should be more time to rest for Fox/Monk/DDR I think instead.
I think a month ago losing the 3point battle that much like today would mean a double digit defeat. Try to respond to a made three of them with a missed three of our own each time.
megapoxy
Starter
Also with the Pacers beating Cavs (with Haliburton exiting the game early with injury, Indiana had an amazing Q3 without him), the Kings have the best winning streak in the league, followed by Indiana (that won all of their 6 matches with double digit) and I think they are the only undefeated teams in 2025.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
Doug did say he is our best defender because of “his ability to sit down and guard”.
I do wish Fox would give more consistent effort on that end, maybe we will see it more as he gets less minutes with Carter back
megapoxy
Starter
There were some moments today (and not only) that Fox was switched to a much taller guy (Vuc) that was trying to take advantage of the height difference but without any luck. In general it's hard to go ISO against Fox I think there was a stat like a month ago that he is among the best defenders wheh his opponents go ISO against him. He's the "head of the snake" in defense and that earned him several "crowns" in the past, led the league in steals, had many consecutive matches with at least a steal etc.
The thing is that it's a bit risky guarding opponents best guard first because it is not so easy for him to waste as much energy later in offense and second because he "gambles" a lot going for the steal, and refs don't hesitate calling fouls on him quite frequently (when he is defending, when attacking they are extra hesitant ofc).
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
You wouldn’t know it from reading this thread though
.
sactowndog
All-Star
someone said Fox >>>> Monk.
I think it’s more Fox > Monk
if you go by Net Rating it’s
Monk 110.6
Fox 111.6
the problem is when you have
Malik
Fox
Domas
DDR
all on the court together you have 4 of our worst defenders on the team on the court. With Domas and DDR you don’t have many other options.
sactowndog
All-Star
this issue is the main problem with Fox.
sactowndog
All-Star
no that isn’t the point.
The point is both Keon and Carter are outstanding defenders and when you have Fox, Monk and somewhat DDR taking up minutes there are significantly less minutes for our best defenders to get on the floor.
Fox and Monk are both great players but they tend to be similar in strengths and wesknesses. Mike tried to solve it by Harping on Fox to be locked in defensively every every every …. Play.
It didn’t work.
twslam07
All-Star
It might be better to look at those metrics in terms of rank to help drive home that point…
EPM: Fox = 177th / Monk = 416th
DARKO: Fox = 232nd / Monk = 481st
LEBRON: Fox = 372nd / Monk = 286th
VPM: Fox = 195th / Monk = 296th
And if we average their ranks across these 4 metrics, it comes out too…
Fox = 244th
Monk = 370th
I think it’s fair to say that Fox is typically around average defensively (with the ability to really turn it up in crunch time, crucial moments, etc.) and Monk looks to be in that “bad defender” category.
And just for fun, this is how Keon ranks in the same metrics…
EPM: Ellis = 39th
DARKO: Ellis = 75th
LEBRON: Ellis = 23rd
VPM: Ellis = 32nd
And if we average those ranks and compare it to Fox and Monk, it comes out to…
Ellis = 42nd
Fox = 244th
Monk = 370th
Using these defensive metrics, that equation is probably closer to…
Ellis >>> Fox >> Monk
But again, I think Fox has the ability to elevate his defensive impact which shortens the gap between him and Ellis and widens the gap between him and Monk.
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Yeah kind of weird that people are acting more like we have a problem by having too much talent at the guard positions rather than celebrating that all that talent has helped us win 7 in a row. Runs like this are extremely rare for our franchise. Lets enjoy it.
megapoxy
Starter
There is no social media post regarding DPOG yesterday, could be because we weren't so good in defense? It's 2nd time it happens in the DC era, first was in the first victory vs Dallas.
Another thing that I noticed via the Kings social media, they had DDR return to Chicago in the spotlight, hugging his former teammates etc, and away from all cameras I could see Duarte speaking to Sabonis and just Sabonis. The clip was short so perhaps there were other players talking to him, and I watched the match without "commercial breaks" due to delay to know if there was any mention to Duarte at all. He had a connection with Domas because they were playing together in Indy (and he had a great rookie season there, we were hoping he might "resurrect" his career in Sacramento) and also because Domas is fluent in Spanish having spent many years there (his father was playing in Spain).
Another thing that I noticed via the Kings social media, they had DDR return to Chicago in the spotlight, hugging his former teammates etc, and away from all cameras I could see Duarte speaking to Sabonis and just Sabonis. The clip was short so perhaps there were other players talking to him, and I watched the match without "commercial breaks" due to delay to know if there was any mention to Duarte at all. He had a connection with Domas because they were playing together in Indy (and he had a great rookie season there, we were hoping he might "resurrect" his career in Sacramento) and also because Domas is fluent in Spanish having spent many years there (his father was playing in Spain).
sactowndog
All-Star
we are having it because win or lose this roster remains unbalanced and extremely guard heavy.
we have had this problem for 3 years and have not addressed it. We aren’t playing fantasy basketball here. We are dangerously thin across the front line. The same people who cheer supporting best available also fail to recognize loading up on guards drives the need to make a trade. When we reach the play-offs the opponents won’t be sitting their best player.
sometimes I honestly think you are Monte posting anonymously.
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sactowndog
All-Star
both times had a starting line up of:
Fox
Monk
DDR
Keegan
Sabonis
with most playing 30+ minutes.
Padrino
All-Star
I can't speak for everybody, but I'd say posters like @The_Jamal and myself certainly recognize the need to make a trade. We just think you're wrong in your assessment of this as a holistic problem. Plain and simple. We're of the opinion that you take BPA in the draft and sort out any roster imbalance later. If you're in the top half of the first round especially, you do not look to the draft to fill a need. You simply don't have enough information about who these players will become in order to draft based on need. Keegan did not profile as a lockdown point-of-attack defender coming out of college, yet he's checking guards with regularity in the NBA and having great success preventing access to the paint. He's filled a need that nobody even expected him to fill when he was drafted. You don't know what you don't know when you're picking these guys. Monte took BPA and the rest is sorting itself out.
I'll concede that Monte's inability to correct the roster's imbalances to this point is unfortunate, but the Kings are currently sitting on back-to-back winning seasons, with a third on the way if their current pace holds. That's due in large part to drafting BPA. Picking Tyrese Haliburton despite De'Aaron Fox's presence on the roster set up the trade for Domantas Sabonis, which was the single most consequential trade in Sacramento Kings history after the Richmond-for-Webber swap. Davion Mitchell didn't pan out, which is a bummer, but Keegan Murray is a starting-caliber wing who has already become an essential part of the team's core, and Devin Carter is already making a pronounced impact on both ends of the floor in just a handful of games.
That's 3 out of 4 successes in the first round, if you believe in Devin Carter's potential the way I do. Any GM in this league will take that hit rate without blinking. I don't even mind the Davion whiff, because Monte had a hard-nosed individual defender on his board as BPA, which signals to me that he's prioritizing both ends of the floor. I wanted either Jalen Johnson or Moses Moody in that draft. Johnson is living up to his potential this season, yet Moody hasn't been able to crack the rotation regularly for a Golden State team that's desperate for contributors. It's a crap shoot. The draft always has been. But Monte's philosophy in the draft has been solid. Take BPA, value two-way talent, seek opportunistic trades when there's roster overlap.
Honestly, man, I'm pretty well done with this. What makes you think Monte doesn't know this? When have I ever said "Draft 16 guards and never trade them". The philosophy is very clear. You draft your BPA, and if/when that guy develops into a star you make a roster decision from then. Again, if Devin Carter is Jrue Holiday 2.0, I do not give 2 flying ****s about what TDS becomes. I want good-great players. I want guys who develop into impact stars.
He's already PROVEN he can make the trade when we have a "guard glut". Monte's also proven he understands where the weaknesses are with this team and has used the 2nd round/UDFA to address defense and length. Keegan Murray has developed into one of the best defensive wings in basketball. Devin Carter is an incredible defensive prospect. Davion was an incredible defensive prospect that didn't work out. Monte knows what he's doing, he understands how this thing works. You don't.
Queta
Woodard
Keon Ellis
Colby Jones
Isaac Jones
Isaac Crawford
Keon Ellis is an enormous home-run. How many GM's have a UDFA hit like him currently?
And there's just plenty of room for Fox/Monk/Keon/Carter to get playing time, especially as Carter develops. If/when Carter ascends to what we hope him to be, then you start looking how to rebalance the roster. But you make sure he's the guy you think he is, before you make that call.
Vinny Basketballerino
Starter
But we have Len and he is a very serviceable center, but haven't played him much during this run. Being "guard heavy" maybe actually be part of our success.
The thing is Keegan has been very effectively playing the 4, and most importantly guarding at the four, so we essentially have Sabonis, Len, Lyles, and Keegan across the front line, and we can play 2+ guard lineup. What we could really use is another 3, imo. A strong 3 and D guy to give us more depth, someone who could defend the 3 and 4. Basically another Keegan. If only we could clone him.
@sactowndog What happened to this? Shouldn't you have been on Keegan over Ivey, no matter what, because he's a wing?
Again, I actually thought Keegan was BPA at 4, but you had the right take here for how to approach the draft. If you thought Ivey was Dame 2.0 (interesting comp), you take him no matter what.
sactowndog
All-Star
I think we can leave Keegan out of the discussion as he is a longer wing and nobody is questioning that pick.
Haliburton at 12 is different significantly than Davion at 9 after you already drafted Hali. Also one could argue, given team needs and players on the board, the Davion pick could well be in the top 5 worst Kings picks. So I hardly classify Monte’s approach as solid.
as for the Carter pick it remains to be seen. It will only be solid if we convert one of our 3 playable lead guards: Fox, Monk, Carter into a desperately needed rotation 6’8” wing. Monte’s best player available approach is only workable if you are an astute trader and I have seen little aside from the Domas trade to indicate he is.
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