ParniValjak
All-Star
Would Valentine's game translate to the NBA? If so would he have any impact as a rookie?
2016 NBA Draft Discussion
- Thread starter Dime Dropper
- Start date
Gary
All-Star
I think so.... Love the guys game. I would rather have him than Hield every day of the week. He plays a position we NEED. Let's face it. McLemore sucks. We need new blood in at SG and a decent sized passing SG who can hit outside shots is exactly what we need.
Defensively? ehhhhhhh.. Maybe Joerger can teach him?
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Hey, I like Valentine too, but it's that defensive part that I question. That's why, if I had my pick of the litter, I would take Dunn. He can play PG, and if needed he can also play SG, and I know he can defend. He was the big east defensive player of the year two years in a row.
He played four years for a highly-respected defensive coach and still looked like a liability out there as a senior. Nothing is ever certain, but I don't like his chances of improving significantly on defense while moving up a level to face the best wing players in the world. He's got a lot of positive qualities but he's not on my list because of the defense. I'll draft a guard who can't shoot but I won't draft a guard who can't defend. Especially not on this team where we need all the help we can get on that end.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
LOL .. I just made this same point in the other thread. His lack of speed and and athleticism is definitely a concern. But I know a lot of people had the same concern about Steph Curry when he entered the draft -- so who knows?
I'd like to see Kris Dunn if they could make it happen without trading Cuz or Willie. I'd be OK with Buddy Hield. Not sure about Jamal Murry or Jaylen Brown. I really like Brice Johnson but I realize that he plays positions the Kings are already set at -- although it never hurts to have more depth.
Gary
All-Star
I wasn't seeing us having a chance at Dunn.. Was he projected to drop? DE had him at 4 or 5 right? Think Vlade might go International? I haven't really been following this draft class much. Had been really busy all through basketball season so I haven't been able to catch as much basketball as I usually do.
Boogie_Fever
G-League
I doubt Dunn makes it to 8.
ParniValjak
All-Star
Dunn is a pipedream by the looks of it so there is no point in even talking about it.
He would have been a perfect fit but we are not going to get him. He will go top 5.
He would have been a perfect fit but we are not going to get him. He will go top 5.
jcwkings
All-Star
He reminds me of a smaller Draymond Green without the defense(although thats what they said about Green out of college too), probably a better shooter than Draymond too. Basically if you draft Valentine you are banking on the intangibles and mentality he apparently has to overcome his physical shortcomings like Draymond before him did.
K
KingMilz
Guest
You know the whole not athletic enough thing to me is always overblown (I don't know much about Valentine I have seen him a couple times and was impressed), Harrison Barnes/Jabari Parker coming out of college was questioned if he was athletic enough (they are two of the most explosive athletes in the NBA) and I think most often what's overlooked is if the guy is a good athlete "with the ball" and if that player can become strong enough to guard at the NBA level. Kyle Korver and JJ Reddick are two perfect examples of guys that are not athletic but are strong (became strong) and have actually been very solid defenders in there careers (after initial troubles). Than you got guys like Curry/CJ Mcollum who are elite athletes WITH the ball because they can cover distances and change directions like very few Draymond Green is another example of this his ability to push it end to end combined with his strength makes him a elite athlete without having the physical gifts you would associate with a elite athlete (e.g fast twitch guys like Travis Outlaw/Ben Mclemore).
I'm not saying Valentine will be good at the next level or that we should draft him (I know very few to no prospects) but I always cringe at the not athletic enough to play at the NBA when ever year you see tons of guys, I mean Pablo Prigioni at age 37 was effective defending at the PG for a quiet a few years. I 'am intrigued by the intangibles that Valentine does bring but we should be weary of the whole not athletic enough to play, if a guy has decent size/skills/heart/IQ than he can play regardless of athletic ability at any level. My favourite all time player Andre Miller is a perfect example of this.
gunks
Hall of Famer
I feel like even if he never really becomes much on defense, a guy with Valentine's BBIQ, size, and skill set would be a rotation player at the very least, possible 6th man type, or even a valuable starter with the right backcourt running mate.
Of course, we also said that about Nik.
Looking forward to hearing about who we bring in for workouts.... Assuming we keep the pick. It's always fun trying to find a good prospect, even though this franchise's batting average is abysmal.
Dunn would be amazing, but the stars would have to align...
Of course, we also said that about Nik.
Looking forward to hearing about who we bring in for workouts.... Assuming we keep the pick. It's always fun trying to find a good prospect, even though this franchise's batting average is abysmal.
Dunn would be amazing, but the stars would have to align...
Well, here's the thing with Baldwin: for 1.5 years he shared the floor with another PG, until basically the Conference play this year. During second half of the season he went from 5.4ast/4.0TO to 7.6ast/3.4TO per 40 minutes. George Hill and Cory Joseph might have physical similarities to Baldwin coming out of college, but they managed only 4.6ast/3.2TO and 3.7ast/1.9TO per 40 respectively - not even close in terms of playmaking load. Kris Dunn was at 8.8ast/4.9TO and 7.6ast/4.3TO in his 3rd and 4th years. In the end it will come down to Baldwin's ability to hit off-the-dribble shots. Both Hill and Joseph can't, which makes them role-playing PGs. Baldwin was at 42%eFG off-the-dribble, which is solid, but not great.
Baldwin will need a lot of work (every young player coming to the NBA does): strengthen lower body as he clearly over-trained above the waist and as a result lost some elevation from HS, must tighten the dribble, elevate release point on his jump-shot.
Valentine can't shoot off the dribble, so he's a secondary play-maker, who is very good at converting C&S opportunities. Conservative estimate is probably "bigger Dellavedova".
macadocious
Starter
I think there are only two teams ahead of us who take Dunn and that's Minnesota and New Orleans. New Orleans being the most likely. Everyone else either has multiple PGs or are picking Simmons/Ingram. It is very conceivable that Dunn falls, especially since he is not a premier shooter and many of the teams in the 4-7 range need to add shooting in a bad way.
Kings started workouts with a bang!
http://www.nba.com/kings/blog/prospects-announced-kings-pre-draft-workouts-1
At least Peja can organize 3pt contest with York, Greene and Loveridge.
http://www.nba.com/kings/blog/prospects-announced-kings-pre-draft-workouts-1
- Josh Hagins (PG – 6’1” 180 lbs.) Arkansas Little Rock
- Gabe York (G – 6’3” 190 lbs.) Arizona
- Brannen Greene (SF – 6’7” 215 lbs.) Kansas
- Max Hooper (G – 6’6” 201 lbs.) Oakland
- Mike Bryson (G – 6’4” 201 lbs.) UC Santa Barbara
- Jordan Loveridge (F – 6’6” 222 lbs.) Utah
At least Peja can organize 3pt contest with York, Greene and Loveridge.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
Just to clarify, they didn't criticize Green's defense in college, but said he was undersized for the position he would have to play in the NBA, and therefore, questioned if he could defend taller, bigger players. That's not the case with Valentine. He's certainly tall enough and big enough for the position. The question is whether he has the athletic ability to defend the position. That wasn't an issue with Green. This is a poor example, but I think a better comparison would be Greivis Vasquez, a 6'6" PG, who struggles defensively. I think Valentine is more talented as a PG, but defensively, they have similar ability.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
Yeah, the one thing all these guys have in common is that all of them are decent to good three point shooters. If memory serves, every shot Hooper took in college was a three point shot. Makes you wonder if he can do anything else. The only player I see that has a chance of being drafted is Greene, who got very little playing time at Kansas. They have their pecking order at Kansas, and you have to work your way up it. Just ask Diallo.
It seems like there might be a decent shot at grabbing an actual NBA player at #59 in this draft. May as well keep our eyes open.
ockingsfan
Starter
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Well, to be fair to Greene, he hardly got any minutes. It would be easy to say he didn't earn any, but this is typical of Kansas. To be honest, I don't think Self is a very good developer of players. When you look at players like McLemore, and Wiggins, Diallo, and now Bragg, the only way a player at Kansas develops is if he ends up staying all four years. Even Thomas Robinson, who was there for three years, wasn't very developed as a player. Self is a good recruiter though. If my memory serves, the only players of note, that were somewhat productive in the NBA right away, were the Morris twins. Wiggins is starting to look like a potential star now, but was just OK his rookie year when you consider his potential. Do we count Withey?
Well, to be fair, at least regarding two Kansas prospects, that Kings got, Self got the most possible production out of them. It's not like both went on to massively expand their skillset, once they left oppressive Kansas regime.
Meanwhile Kings proceeded to scrape the bottom of the barrel with another high-profile workout:
http://www.nba.com/kings/blog/prospects-announced-kings-pre-draft-workouts-1
- Venky Jois (F – 6’8” 230 lbs.) Eastern Washington
- Nick Faust (G – 6’6” 210 lbs.) Long Beach State
- Mamadou Ndiaye (C – 7’6” 300 lbs.) UC Irvine
- Mike Tobey (C – 7’0” 252 lbs.) Virginia
- Codi Miller-McIntyre (G – 6’3” 205 lbs.) Wake Forrest
- Anthony Beane (G – 6’2” 190 lbs.) Southern Illinois
ockingsfan
Starter
I think there is one guy who could make the league on that list.
It would be interesting if we could get Mamadou Ndiaye with the 59th pick. He could develop into a Mark Eaton type player, a tall timber in the middle to clog the paint in defensive switch outs.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd post my own mock draft list, but I have them not in the order I think they'll be drafted, but in the order I would draft them regardless of who is doing the drafting. Or, to put it another way, I have them in order of who I think the next best player is. Near the bottom, some of the players are interchangeable.
1. Ben Simmons: PG, SF, PF, 6'10".
2. Brandon Ingram: SF, 6'8".
3. Dragon Bender: PF, 7'1".
4. Kris Dunn: PG, 6'4".
5. Buddy Hield: SG, 6'5".
6. Jamal Murray: SG, 6'5".
7. Jaylen Brown: SF/SG, 6'7".
8. Jakob Poeltl: Center, 7'1".
9. Henry Ellenson: PF, 6'10".
10. Marquise Chriss: PF, 6'10".
11. Denzel Valentine: SG, 6'6".
12. Furkan Korkmaz: SG, 6'7".
13. Wade Baldwin: PG, 6'3".
14. Deyonta Davis: PF, 6'10"
15. Timothe Luwawu: SG/SF, 6'7".
16. Demetrius Jackson: PG, 6'2".
17. Domantas Sabonis: PF, 6'10".
18. Taurean Prince: SF, 6'8".
19. DeAndre Bembry: SG/SF, 6'6".
20. Tyler Ulis: PG, 5"10".
21. Damian Jones: Center, 7'0".
22. Skal Labissiere: PF/SF, 6'11".
23. Malachi Richardson: SG/SF, 6'6".
24. Brice Johnson: PF, 6'10" .
25. Thon Maker: PF, 7'0".
26. Iasiah Whitehead: PG, 6'4".
27. Patrick McCaw: SG/SF, 6'7".
28. Chinanu Onuaku: PF, 6'10".
29. Ben Bentil: PF, 6'8".
30. Zhou Qi: Center, 7'2".
I've rounded out their heights. Remember, this isn't the way they'll fall on draft day. It's the way I rank them. The fact that I left out some of the international players will change it.
1. Ben Simmons: PG, SF, PF, 6'10".
2. Brandon Ingram: SF, 6'8".
3. Dragon Bender: PF, 7'1".
4. Kris Dunn: PG, 6'4".
5. Buddy Hield: SG, 6'5".
6. Jamal Murray: SG, 6'5".
7. Jaylen Brown: SF/SG, 6'7".
8. Jakob Poeltl: Center, 7'1".
9. Henry Ellenson: PF, 6'10".
10. Marquise Chriss: PF, 6'10".
11. Denzel Valentine: SG, 6'6".
12. Furkan Korkmaz: SG, 6'7".
13. Wade Baldwin: PG, 6'3".
14. Deyonta Davis: PF, 6'10"
15. Timothe Luwawu: SG/SF, 6'7".
16. Demetrius Jackson: PG, 6'2".
17. Domantas Sabonis: PF, 6'10".
18. Taurean Prince: SF, 6'8".
19. DeAndre Bembry: SG/SF, 6'6".
20. Tyler Ulis: PG, 5"10".
21. Damian Jones: Center, 7'0".
22. Skal Labissiere: PF/SF, 6'11".
23. Malachi Richardson: SG/SF, 6'6".
24. Brice Johnson: PF, 6'10" .
25. Thon Maker: PF, 7'0".
26. Iasiah Whitehead: PG, 6'4".
27. Patrick McCaw: SG/SF, 6'7".
28. Chinanu Onuaku: PF, 6'10".
29. Ben Bentil: PF, 6'8".
30. Zhou Qi: Center, 7'2".
I've rounded out their heights. Remember, this isn't the way they'll fall on draft day. It's the way I rank them. The fact that I left out some of the international players will change it.
I'm curious why you have Bender ranked so highly. From what I can remember, it's rare for you to put an international prospect that high up on your big board. I also think you're overlooking Dejounte Murray and Cheick Diallo a bit by not having them in your top 30, but I guess it's justifiable if you're looking more for immediate production than long-range potential.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Considering that Ndiaye is more likely to go undrafted, I don't think grabbing him with the 59th pick will be a problem. As a matter of fact, if the Kings want to sign him and he still sitting there at 59, I'd let him go undrafted and sign him as a freeagent where there's more contract versatility.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I'm going against my normal instincts here. I've watched a lot of film on him and I have privy to some scouting reports, which are all glowing. So based on that I'm going along with the consensus. He appears to be as advertised. I like Dejounte Murray, but I have some questions about him, and because of that, I have others that I like better. But you could make an argument for him. I was touch and go with Diallo. The question is, do I change everything I knew about him based on two combine games. To be honest about it, based on what I saw during the season, and the two combine games, I could make a better case for Robert Carter. However, I did have Diallo at 30 for a while, and then decided to go with a taller project.
I'm sure you would have a different top 30. It's all a matter of prospective. It's likely that a lot of people wouldn't have Whitehead in the top 30, but I really like him and saw him play a lot this past season. I really like Malik Beasley, but he has some serious holes in his game. That said, he could be a very good player down the road. The thing about this draft is that from 25 to 45, the player are pretty much interchangeable. And I mean that in a good way.
You'll notice that I have Korkmaz and Luwawu both in my top 30 as well, but I've watched a lot of film on both players and I like both of them, expecially Korkmaz, who I think is the better overall player right now. But it's close.
ParniValjak
All-Star
Would it be such a HUGE surprise to see us drafting Wade Baldwin at 8 if all the guards are gone by that point?
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Yeah, as much as I like Baldwin, I think there's better talent at the 8 spot. But you never know. Ask me in three years. He has the ability to be a good defender at the position.
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