2009-10 Kings draft position thread
- Thread starter fnordius
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I like every thing you say except I would choose Aldrich over Johnson if it came down to the 7th or 8th pick. Don't get me wrong I love Johnson, but because we have Greene (who I think will be a star in the future) and Casspi who should be a high energy player off the bench, I would go for Aldrich in this position. These guys need somebody who can get the ball for them. IMO Aldrich is that guy.
You know as well as I do that stats don't show the entire picture. A good defensive player can impact the game in a lot of ways that don't show up on in the stat line. Take last night for instance. How many points in the paint did we have? We turned into a jumpshooting team and when we didn't hit our shots, we lost. The reason was Brook Lopez. No one wanted to challenge him inside. Now none of that is going to show up in Lopez stat sheet, but he had an impact on the game none the less. Just trying to use stats is too simplistic.
Now I'm not going to tell you that Aldrich will impact the game that same way. But he has a chance to do that. He's not just some big white stiff with a crew cut. He's a very good defensive player that also happens to be a good rebounder. And in my humble opinion, he'll accidently get you 10 points a game on put backs alone.
Now I'm not going to tell you that Aldrich will impact the game that same way. But he has a chance to do that. He's not just some big white stiff with a crew cut. He's a very good defensive player that also happens to be a good rebounder. And in my humble opinion, he'll accidently get you 10 points a game on put backs alone.
How many times have you seen Aldrich play? I ask because what your saying about him is pure nonsense. To say he's less than zero on offense tells me that you don't even know what your talking about. The last two years he's averaged 13.1 PPG, 10.4 RPG, and 3.1 BPG. He's never been the focus of the offense at Kansas, and even less this year. But he can score in the post and he does have a little 15 foot jumper. He played within the system. He's a team oriented player thats very unselfish basketball.
No, he may not ever be the man. But unless we draft in the top four, were probably not going to get the man as you call him. Marcus Camby isn't the man on his team and never has been. But you can't deny that he impacts the game.
No, he may not ever be the man. But unless we draft in the top four, were probably not going to get the man as you call him. Marcus Camby isn't the man on his team and never has been. But you can't deny that he impacts the game.
I respectfully disagree. Cousins is definitely worth a top four pick. And depending on the team picking, possibly a top 2 or 3 pick. For instance, if the Timberwolves end up in their current spot at number 2, what is their biggest need? A center. Now personally I'd take Turner because I think he could really help them. But you never know what a team is going to do. Good centers are very hard to find. Look around the league and start counting all the truely good ones out there. And Cousins has a chance to be very good.
Excellent analogy. I can't argue with anything you said, other than I think Johnson can be a good defender. He's an outstanding athlete with good quickness and good lateral movement. I don't know why but my gut tells me that he's been somewhat restrained in the Syracuse system. There have been times when games have been in jeopardy, and he's taken matters into his own hands. Mostly though he's been a great support player that quietly scores his points and gets his rebounds. Its hard to really say much about his defense, since Syracuse plays a zone.
Fair enough. I haven't watched nearly the number of games as last year. I appreciate the value of a center who could really make a big difference on defense. I think just about everybody can appreciate that concept. I just haven't seen it in college this year. Really, the guy I've seen make the most difference is Alabi, and he has issues because he's not that strong and could be outphysicalled in a one on one match up.
A few games.
So we agree: He's not going to be the man. On that point, it's really irrelevant when we would pick him. Pick him #1, he's not the man. Pick him at #10, he's not the man.
The fact that he hasn't been the focus on offense, isn't that a red flag? Unless the coach is terrible, and I doubt that, don't you think there's a reason for that? And if the guy isn't a focal point on offense in college don't you think there's a microscopic chance of him ever being the focal point in the NBA? Like I said, he'll be another guy in the rotation, not THE guy. Will he help? Yes. Incrementally. Another guy to rotate in with Hawes and Thompson and Landry. It might excite you. I doesn't excite me, regardless of what pick we have.
So we agree: He's not going to be the man. On that point, it's really irrelevant when we would pick him. Pick him #1, he's not the man. Pick him at #10, he's not the man.
The fact that he hasn't been the focus on offense, isn't that a red flag? Unless the coach is terrible, and I doubt that, don't you think there's a reason for that? And if the guy isn't a focal point on offense in college don't you think there's a microscopic chance of him ever being the focal point in the NBA? Like I said, he'll be another guy in the rotation, not THE guy. Will he help? Yes. Incrementally. Another guy to rotate in with Hawes and Thompson and Landry. It might excite you. I doesn't excite me, regardless of what pick we have.
Ha ha.. Sorry Aldrich doesn't excite you. The sight of him doesn't excite me either. Something I suspect my wife is happy about. I'm just trying to be realistic. Sure, getting Wall, Turner (now I'm excited), Cousins, or Favors would certainly increase my blood flow. But in all likelyhood were not going to get one of those guys unless we get real lucky. In which case this conversation will change dramaticly.
After those four, the most likely player to be a star is Wesley Johnson. But having said that, we know from experience that someone chosen after those four will become a star. If I had a crystal ball I'd tell you who. I could make an educated guess, but thats all it would be.
One of the problems with judging college players is you have to not only take into consideration what they've done, but also who they're playing with and what the team concept is. Syracuse plays a zone. So its difficult to judge how good a defender a player from Syracuse will be. Favors played on a team with guards that thought their job was to immediately shoot the ball from anywhere on the court. While Cousins played on a team with a terrific playmaker in Wall. Would Favors have been as good as Cousins if he were on the Kentucky team? How good would Cousins have looked at Georgia Tech?
It is what it is, but you have to try and look through what it is as well as you can to come up with a true picture. Thats why seeing as many games as possible is an absolute neccessity. What if the only game one would see was the best game in that players college career? Or the worse? You'd come away with a flawed picture of that player.
This year Aldrich averaged 11.3 PPG and 9.8 RPG to go with 3.5BPG. If you watched Kansas last year, you would have seen that Aldrich was more involved in the offense. He averaged over 15 PPG and 11.1 RPG to go along with 2.7 BPG. Not shabby numbers, and proof that he can score if he's needed to. This year with the addition of Xavior Henry and a couple of other pieces and with the team having more experience, they asked Aldrich to concentrate on defense. He had fewer shot attempts, so his PPG went down a little, as did his RPG. But his BPG went up.
Now if you ask me if he'll ever be a star, I'd probably say no. But then if you would have asked me that same question about Chris Kaman when he came out of college, I would have said the same thing. I expect that some would still argue that Kaman isn't a star. I would be one of those. But he has become a very good efficient player. Aldrich is a better athlete than Kaman and is just as big. I would bet he has a longer wingspan than Kaman. So there's no reason not to believe that in time Aldrich couldn't become as good a player as Kaman. But there are no guarantee's.
After those four, the most likely player to be a star is Wesley Johnson. But having said that, we know from experience that someone chosen after those four will become a star. If I had a crystal ball I'd tell you who. I could make an educated guess, but thats all it would be.
One of the problems with judging college players is you have to not only take into consideration what they've done, but also who they're playing with and what the team concept is. Syracuse plays a zone. So its difficult to judge how good a defender a player from Syracuse will be. Favors played on a team with guards that thought their job was to immediately shoot the ball from anywhere on the court. While Cousins played on a team with a terrific playmaker in Wall. Would Favors have been as good as Cousins if he were on the Kentucky team? How good would Cousins have looked at Georgia Tech?
It is what it is, but you have to try and look through what it is as well as you can to come up with a true picture. Thats why seeing as many games as possible is an absolute neccessity. What if the only game one would see was the best game in that players college career? Or the worse? You'd come away with a flawed picture of that player.
This year Aldrich averaged 11.3 PPG and 9.8 RPG to go with 3.5BPG. If you watched Kansas last year, you would have seen that Aldrich was more involved in the offense. He averaged over 15 PPG and 11.1 RPG to go along with 2.7 BPG. Not shabby numbers, and proof that he can score if he's needed to. This year with the addition of Xavior Henry and a couple of other pieces and with the team having more experience, they asked Aldrich to concentrate on defense. He had fewer shot attempts, so his PPG went down a little, as did his RPG. But his BPG went up.
Now if you ask me if he'll ever be a star, I'd probably say no. But then if you would have asked me that same question about Chris Kaman when he came out of college, I would have said the same thing. I expect that some would still argue that Kaman isn't a star. I would be one of those. But he has become a very good efficient player. Aldrich is a better athlete than Kaman and is just as big. I would bet he has a longer wingspan than Kaman. So there's no reason not to believe that in time Aldrich couldn't become as good a player as Kaman. But there are no guarantee's.
Is Shawn Marion a star? Because that's as high as Johnson is gonna get. You say his long-range shooting is much better than Marion's? Johnson doesn't have the strength to play 4. So he's true SF where his shot is good but nothing spectacular. He still can't create for himself outside of post and he's not on the level of Gerald Wallace or Josh Smith to make a lot of athletic plays.
Last season Kansas' offense basically consisted of 3 men: Collins, Aldrich and Marcus Morris. This year Self built an offensive powerhouse with Henry and Markief Morris helping previous trio. Too many guys, only one ball. Last year Collins basically controlled offense and created a lot for Cole. This year Collins was one of playmakers. Henry and Morrises create mainly for themselves. Coles offense plumetted.
Last season Kansas' offense basically consisted of 3 men: Collins, Aldrich and Marcus Morris. This year Self built an offensive powerhouse with Henry and Markief Morris helping previous trio. Too many guys, only one ball. Last year Collins basically controlled offense and created a lot for Cole. This year Collins was one of playmakers. Henry and Morrises create mainly for themselves. Coles offense plumetted.
Yeah, with Wall or Turner no viagra is needed.
I agree wholeheartedly about the difficulty of assessing Johnson, Favors and Cousins. As you know, it's a heckuva lot harder to assess the big guys than the guards. The big guys are dependent on the guards, not the other way around, and in college what they say is correct - it is a guard's league.
For what it's worth, I just don't think Petrie is going to choose Aldrich, if he is available. But if he does, I'll rationalize the choice by the fact that he will provide Hawes with good competition, always a good thing. And maybe after a few years, he'll be an above average NBA center.
Johnson is a conundrum. In the last game I watched him get a ton of rebounds. But how exactly did that occur? Well, he was just standing there in his area (of the zone) and the ball kept coming off the rim to him. The other team set their offense up on the opposite side of the floor and when the shot it, they shot it long and came right to him. By and large, he shot the ball from the outside, didn't force the other team to foul, played pretty passive. Yet the stats look good. He did make a good number of outside shots, and was more aggressive in that regard than what I've seen of him. I have no read of the guy from this game. And the other couple of games I've seen was the same thing. I have no idea whether he can play man to man D, or whether he can be a force driving to the basket, or whether he can rebound in traffic. I'm hoping that in the next game that he can play against a team that forces him to put the ball on the floor and that maybe sets their offense up on his side of the floor. So far, he reminds of the pf last year who played for Louisville (name escapes me); he has talent, but doesn't dominate on the floor, seems to float a lot.
Cousins has to, and mean HAS to be a force in the low post offensively to become a very good center in the NBA. That's going to be not just up to him, but up to his future NBA coach. He's going to be at a distinct disadvantage if he is matched up against outside shooting types, so he must be allowed to repeatedly go at them in the post. And then he's got to convert. I think he's going to have a dickens of time staying out of foul trouble in the NBA, especially in the first two or three years. I can definitely see him going through a Jason Thompson foul prone temper tantrum maturation period.
I agree wholeheartedly about the difficulty of assessing Johnson, Favors and Cousins. As you know, it's a heckuva lot harder to assess the big guys than the guards. The big guys are dependent on the guards, not the other way around, and in college what they say is correct - it is a guard's league.
For what it's worth, I just don't think Petrie is going to choose Aldrich, if he is available. But if he does, I'll rationalize the choice by the fact that he will provide Hawes with good competition, always a good thing. And maybe after a few years, he'll be an above average NBA center.
Johnson is a conundrum. In the last game I watched him get a ton of rebounds. But how exactly did that occur? Well, he was just standing there in his area (of the zone) and the ball kept coming off the rim to him. The other team set their offense up on the opposite side of the floor and when the shot it, they shot it long and came right to him. By and large, he shot the ball from the outside, didn't force the other team to foul, played pretty passive. Yet the stats look good. He did make a good number of outside shots, and was more aggressive in that regard than what I've seen of him. I have no read of the guy from this game. And the other couple of games I've seen was the same thing. I have no idea whether he can play man to man D, or whether he can be a force driving to the basket, or whether he can rebound in traffic. I'm hoping that in the next game that he can play against a team that forces him to put the ball on the floor and that maybe sets their offense up on his side of the floor. So far, he reminds of the pf last year who played for Louisville (name escapes me); he has talent, but doesn't dominate on the floor, seems to float a lot.
Cousins has to, and mean HAS to be a force in the low post offensively to become a very good center in the NBA. That's going to be not just up to him, but up to his future NBA coach. He's going to be at a distinct disadvantage if he is matched up against outside shooting types, so he must be allowed to repeatedly go at them in the post. And then he's got to convert. I think he's going to have a dickens of time staying out of foul trouble in the NBA, especially in the first two or three years. I can definitely see him going through a Jason Thompson foul prone temper tantrum maturation period.
As much as id really like to see the Kings gets Cousins/Favors/Udoh/Varnardo I must say im intrigued as to what a mix of Evans/W. Johnson/Greene would play like. I also really like Omar Samhan. He won the WCC defensive player of the year award two years in a row. He reminds me of Joel Pryzbilla with more scoring ability. I question Samhans ability to play heavy minutes running up and down the court with NBA players though. Hes a bit on the heavy side.
My first thought is how utterly horrible he played tonight against West Virginia. Maybe he just had an off game (as did virtually his entire team) but the tough D laid on him and Isiah Thomas was flat-out suffocating. Thomas was totally outclassed by the longer armed (and just as quick) Mountaineers back court. Pondexter might make an NBA team, might not - but his talent nowhere near equals his high school teammate Brook Lopez or probably even his brother Robin IMO.
I never would have compared Johnson with Marion. I agree that Johnson is a SF regardless of where he plays in college. Of all the top players in the draft he has the best outside shot. And he is a very good athlete. No I wouldn't put him in the class of a Gerald Wallace type athlete, but there aren't many that are in that class. I agree that he does at times have trouble creating his own shot which relates to his ballhandling, which I think is his biggest weakness. Let me clear, I never said he would be a star. I said he was the next most likely to be a star. That certainly doesn't mean that he will be.
In regards to Aldrich, I think we are in agreement.
In regards to Aldrich, I think we are in agreement.
