[Game] [01/82] Kings @ Suns, 10/22/2025 7pm Pacific 10pm Eastern

Padrino said:
Good for you. 👏

I appreciate the commitment. For me, it boils down to math. The Kings have been in Sacramento for 40 years. They've only had 10 winning seasons in that span. Much of that futility is due to short-term thinking.

I'm 38 years old, and I'd like to see the Kings become a perennial playoff contender again sometime before, like, I'm of the age to retire. And this is how you make it happen in the NBA. You lose, but you lose well. It sets you up for future success. This is what so many fans seem to miss. Losing with a lineup of...

Carter
Ellis
Clifford
Murray
Sabonis

...is noble in its way. That's losing well. It's not throwing games intentionally. It's losing because your talent is too inexperienced to hang with NBA vets night in and night out. But it pays off as you acquire more high value draft picks and watch your young talent grow into a winning team together. It's how small market franchises make headway. It's how so many teams have done it in the last two decades. It sounds rewarding to me. I'd like to see the Kings try it sometime.

I suppose I'll just never understand the Kings fan who's excited about the likes of DeMar DeRozan and Russell Westbrook on this side of ancient. They're not long-term pieces. They're not fan favorites. They're not "Kings for Life" types who will be hanging around the franchise when they retire. They're just aging vets past their prime who the Kings signed in a desperate bid to compete for 40 wins and a play-in exit.

Rooting for those guys to win means nothing to the Kings fan in me who bleeds purple. Rooting for Keegan Murray does. Rooting for Keon Ellis does. Rooting for Devin Carter and Nique Clifford does. That's homegrown talent that should be around for a long time. And if they lose? So be it. Add more young talent, grow together, then win.

But please, I'm begging you, Vivek, no more of this "Yeah, go Kings! 35-40 wins with a roster of cast-offs from other teams so we can get the 10th seed or BUST!" 🤮
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Extremely well said.. Every other team has figured out how to play youth. Here we are giving Carter DNP, Keon 13mpg, while russ, schroder, lavine, demar take turns. Its insanity
 
Padrino said:
This argument rests on the assumption that everyone's acumen was as poor as Vlade's. Nothing about Bagley made sense in the context of the modern NBA, even in the year of his draft. There are never certainties when evaluating young talent, but there are absolutely knowables in any given draft. You yourself are likely to gamble on length over almost every other trait in a young player because you recognize the value of length in the modern NBA. You know something, even if it isn't much.

Take Trae or JJJ over Luka in that particular draft, and it's not a complete disaster, because at least Trae and JJJ make sense in the context of the modern NBA. We know something about the skills and attributes that translate to wins in today's league. But draft Marvin Bagley, and you've just conceded a decade or more of sustained playoff success to your rivals, because you weren't paying attention to the knowables.
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So a number of draft prognosticators had Bagley over triple J. Snark aside
 
The_Jamal said:
Eubanks had a few nice blocks but he was pretty bad overall. Missed assignments galore and for some reason he keeps taking ISO possessions on offense.

Max and Cardwell both flashed at times last night. Certainly would rather prioritize them getting consistent playing time over Eubanks, but hey
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If we're talking about rebounds, Cardwell had one rebound in 14.5 minutes. Considering the center position is the one and only position he can play, I'm not understanding the Cardwell love. Whereas I can at least see Max as having a 50-50 shot at becoming a legit NBA player, I see Cardwell as having close to a zero chance.
 
sactowndog said:
So a number of draft prognosticators had Bagley over triple J. Snark aside
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And? They were wrong. Every year, there are draft prognosticators who get it right and get it wrong. I'm not much for scorekeeping on this stuff. As a fan, you just have to hope that your favorite team's front office knows more than the prognosticators. On that score, Vlade and his front office absolutely blew it, and it was entirely preventable by recognizing what you should value in a prospect, as well as what you shouldn't. That's the job of any scout in a draft process.

I mean, in what version of the NBA would Marvin Bagley even have been successful? You'd probably have to go back to 2007-2011, when Amare Stoudemire was making all-star teams. Behind the times, Vlade was. And it's probably not a great idea to hire a guy like that into a GM role in the first place. Behind the times, Vivek was, too. And still is, if the DeRozan and Westbrook signings are any indication.

Ultimately, we don't need to pretend like there aren't knowables just to make ourselves feel better about the Kings missing out on Luka. Sometimes you roll the dice and you miss, but when you do miss, hopefully it's not because of terrible judgment.
 
Padrino said:
And? They were wrong. Every year, there are draft prognosticators who get it right and get it wrong. I'm not much for scorekeeping on this stuff. As a fan, you just have to hope that your favorite team's front office knows more than the prognosticators. On that score, Vlade and his front office absolutely blew it, and it was entirely preventable by recognizing what you should value in a prospect, as well as what you shouldn't. That's the job of any scout in a draft process.

I mean, in what version of the NBA would Marvin Bagley even have been successful? You'd probably have to go back to 2007-2011, when Amare Stoudemire was making all-star teams. Behind the times, Vlade was. And it's probably not a great idea to hire a guy like that into a GM role in the first place. Behind the times, Vivek was, too. And still is, if the DeRozan and Westbrook signings are any indication.

Ultimately, we don't need to pretend like there aren't knowables just to make ourselves feel better about the Kings missing out on Luka. Sometimes you roll the dice and you miss, but when you do miss, hopefully it's not because of terrible judgment.
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Since I’m not Carmichael Dave I will drop this debate.
 
sactowndog said:
Yep Car. Dave called it arguably a worse move than the Bagley pick. His reasoning was one could think Bagley could be good but MGMT should have known about LaVine. He was a known quantity and they did it anyway.
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Exactly Bagley looked good and nobody knew that fat bastered 77 would be this good. Drafting Carter when you need a big is comical we could have aware right now
 
Joshyjosh31 said:
Exactly Bagley looked good and nobody knew that fat bastered 77 would be this good. Drafting Carter when you need a big is comical we could have aware right now
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You and me must've been living on two completely different planets back then, because all I remember hearing about leading into that draft was how Luka was expected to be the next great thing, and that he was the greatest prospect the league had seen since LeBron. Claiming that "nobody knew" that Luka would be this good is quite the stretch...Because a lot of people did.

Passing on Luka and drafting Bagley because the team NEEDED a big, hands down, has been the biggest mistake this franchise has ever made.

You just don't pass up on the opportunity to draft a generational talent. Regardless of the situation, and regardless of the makeup of your roster at that time.

Obviously, this also takes into consideration that Vlade and team would've been able to nail the rebuild with Luka as the centerpiece, which I do not believe would've happened, as easier of a rebuild as they would've potentially had.
 
Padrino said:
It would be odd to frame it that way, given the reported mutual interest between the Kings and Westbrook throughout basically the entire off-season.
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What was the reason for the very late timing of it? Do it two weeks or so earlier and Westbrook is actually in condition, acclimated with the players and sets, and ready for the 1st game. Even one week earlier could have made a difference in being ready
 
QWERTYLICIOUS said:
You and me must've been living on two completely different planets back then, because all I remember hearing about leading into that draft was how Luka was expected to be the next great thing, and that he was the greatest prospect the league had seen since LeBron. Claiming that "nobody knew" that Luka would be this good is quite the stretch...Because a lot of people did.

Passing on Luka and drafting Bagley because the team NEEDED a big, hands down, has been the biggest mistake this franchise has ever made.

You just don't pass up on the opportunity to draft a generational talent. Regardless of the situation, and regardless of the makeup of your roster at that time.

Obviously, this also takes into consideration that Vlade and team would've been able to nail the rebuild with Luka as the centerpiece, which I do not believe would've happened, as easier of a rebuild as they would've potentially had.
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Preach. Never draft for need, ever
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
What was the reason for the very late timing of it? Do it two weeks or so earlier and Westbrook is actually in condition, acclimated with the players and sets, and ready for the 1st game. Even one week earlier could have made a difference in being ready
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I honestly have no idea. If I had to guess, Westbrook was probably weighing his options/holding out for a better deal or situation and wasn't ready to pack for Europe or China. But nobody had cap space, and even if they did, nobody was spending more than the minimum on Russell Westbrook at 37 years old. I can't imagine he was enthusiastic about joining this iteration of the Kings, but if he wanted to play in the NBA this season, that's who was calling (for reasons that remain beyond my comprehension).
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
The worst last minute signing that I can recall. It will screw up the rotation and progress of more than one key younger player
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The move made absolutely no sense when it was reported over summer, no sense when it was executed, and no sense now. For a team in our position, extremely guard heavy, and with no realistic shot at anything important, why go sign up an old, washed up vet, who will pin Devin and Keon to the bench? Makes absolutely no sense. All the fans can see it. Why can't Scott?

Possible theories: no faith in Carter, Vivek is desperately trying to get some needless wins, vets are being placated at the cost of youth, Scott wants to have a better record if possible, ditto for Doug, all of the above.

While the tendency is to blame Vivek, and not without reason, let's also remember that both Scott and Doug are in the first years of their contract. Both probably want to squeeze out some unnecessary wins to spice up their resumes. Both will need to take responsibility; one for drafting him, and one for giving him minutes.

Dennis, I could understand. A team needs to have some structure, and it starts with PG. Helps young players too. If Monk was not quite a lead guard, and Carter not up to the task either, getting a vet for some structure helped. Westbrook signing made absolutely no sense.
 
QWERTYLICIOUS said:
You and me must've been living on two completely different planets back then, because all I remember hearing about leading into that draft was how Luka was expected to be the next great thing, and that he was the greatest prospect the league had seen since LeBron. Claiming that "nobody knew" that Luka would be this good is quite the stretch...Because a lot of people did.

Passing on Luka and drafting Bagley because the team NEEDED a big, hands down, has been the biggest mistake this franchise has ever made.

You just don't pass up on the opportunity to draft a generational talent. Regardless of the situation, and regardless of the makeup of your roster at that time.

Obviously, this also takes into consideration that Vlade and team would've been able to nail the rebuild with Luka as the centerpiece, which I do not believe would've happened, as easier of a rebuild as they would've potentially had.
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I wanted us to draft Luka but like everyone else I thought Bagley would be good too. I meant I didn’t think a lot of people thought Luka would be generational good otherwise he’d have went first overall. I don’t think vlade would’ve messed up with Luka he would’ve had his costar already on the team assuming Fox wouldn’t butch about Luka being the star guard. All you’re need is defensive role players after that.

Either way we ****ed that up and the basketball gods gave us another chance years later to pair Hali with Sengun and we ****ed that up too
 
Caccia said:
One tactic that Mike Brown and now Doug Christie have failed to employ, and which would have been very effective last night, was to play the best defensive men when they had a 17 to 20-point lead. I kept expecting to see Carter when the lead began to shrink, but he never saw the court. And then, of course, Keon only saw 13 minutes of action. It's okay to have one of Monk or Schröder on the court with the defensive aces, to control the offense, but playing them both together is suicide.

I guess we can be thankful that none of the Kings was arrested today.
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Ooof. Those poor Portland fans are probably irate.

And I fully agree that this was a problem with Mike Brown as well. When we would get a lead we didn't try to muck up the tempo, burn game clock, put a defensive lineup on the floor we would just keep shooting the ball, aiming for a blowout. When we're down big -- shoot threes! When we're up big -- shoot threes! I suppose it shouldn't be surprising that the NBA is embroiled in multiple gambling scandals when the entire tenor of the game has been given over to a gambling mindset.
 
QWERTYLICIOUS said:
You and me must've been living on two completely different planets back then, because all I remember hearing about leading into that draft was how Luka was expected to be the next great thing, and that he was the greatest prospect the league had seen since LeBron. Claiming that "nobody knew" that Luka would be this good is quite the stretch...Because a lot of people did.

Passing on Luka and drafting Bagley because the team NEEDED a big, hands down, has been the biggest mistake this franchise has ever made.

You just don't pass up on the opportunity to draft a generational talent. Regardless of the situation, and regardless of the makeup of your roster at that time.

Obviously, this also takes into consideration that Vlade and team would've been able to nail the rebuild with Luka as the centerpiece, which I do not believe would've happened, as easier of a rebuild as they would've potentially had.
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Vlade even played on the same national team as Luka's dad! We had two Serbian former NBA stars in our front office during the 2018 draft and somehow they whiffed on a 19 year old Euroleague MVP basketball prodigy from the same part of the world. That pick couldn't have been more gift-wrapped to propel the Kings back to prominence as an international brand.

But I think when you look at Vlade's draft history, its clear why he picked Bagley. Every time he had a lottery pick to spend he took at least one big man. Willie Cauley-Stein in 2015. Georgios Papagiannis in 2016 (he was right about the Giannis part at least?). Harry Giles III in 2017. And then of course Marvin Baley III in 2018. He claims he didn't take Luka because Fox played the same position but Donic was 6'8" already as a teenager so that really doesn't make sense. Vlade isn't dumb enough to think that a team can't have two ball handlers on the floor at once and the same logic should have applied to not drafting 4 centers in 4 straight drafts. He was a guy who played the center position and obviously had a cognitive bias in favor of drafting guys who played his position.
 
sactowndog said:
Jazz just hammered the Clippers.

Filipowski, Kessler and Markannan are going to make our 4 guard line-up look like midgets. They have two good young forwards in Hendrickson and Bailey coming off the bench.
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Oh I’m aware. I’m just saying none of that matters because they’ll inevitably punt all of that development and start tanking again right after Christmas. It’s very strange
 
pdxKingsFan said:
I think the Fox trade is ultimately going to be viewed through the lens of how much success Fox has with the Spurs coupled with if we land a high lotto pick in the next 2-3 years. LaVine will be off the books or making a lot less money while Fox will be on his 50m+ deal. I have no clue what if anything we'd have gotten for him this offseason but not getting that pick swap back as part of any deal was malpractice by Monte.
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Fox won’t even be a Spur by next season if you ask me. They don’t need him
 
I know there are many factors to consider, but i didn’t realize Keon came in the game with about 5 minutes remaining in the 3rd quarter with the Kings up five, only to be subbed out with 8:36 or so remaining in the game and the Kings down seven. I can’t be too angry at Coach DC even though i think Keon should’ve been in the game long before that anyhow. This Logjam will make even less sense when Jones, Keegan and Nique come back so a move needs to be made.
 
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