The Lockout has arrived.
- Thread starter rainmaker
- Start date
Actually the players are at 50 for current players with 1 percent going to a more robust retirement fund. The owners are at 50.2 ish. Basically, the bri issue is all but done.
At this point, the players are fighting over the ability of tax paying teams to sign and trade and use a full mle. Because of the bri formula and escrow, that has no impact on salaries.
Thus, 100% of the players might forgo a seasons worth of income so 2% of the league can chase a title by going to a large market team that's a mile over the cap.
That's really stupid if these guys were smarter or the agents or union was giving the honest advice, there is no way this end up at 50.5 after giving up on the other system issues.
At this point, the players are fighting over the ability of tax paying teams to sign and trade and use a full mle. Because of the bri formula and escrow, that has no impact on salaries.
Thus, 100% of the players might forgo a seasons worth of income so 2% of the league can chase a title by going to a large market team that's a mile over the cap.
That's really stupid if these guys were smarter or the agents or union was giving the honest advice, there is no way this end up at 50.5 after giving up on the other system issues.
I've read every article and statement, and I agree with you. This is all about the system issues at this point. I've felt from the beginning that the system issues were what was important to the players union. The league wants no more of this LeBron, Wade, Bosh nonsense. If the players could put their personal interests aside for a moment, and look at the big picture in regards to the future of the league, and the small markets in the league, they might see things differently.
I'm starting to believe that this is more about losing face than dealing with reality. Hunter said that he expected this and that the players are prepared. Prepared for what? To lose money to no avail? If the season is lost, the players union would lose a minimum of 1.9 billion dollars. Thats based on last seasons BRI. Just how long would it take them to make that up even if they do get the original 52% that they were asking for? And they won't get that 52%. I believe that if the union truthfully informed the players, and put it to a vote, it would be approved. Hunter! You've accidently shot yourself in the foot. You have nothing to gain by shooting yourself in the other foot. Except more pain! You had a chance for a win/win. And now you've turned into a lose/lose. Brilliant!
As Jimmy Stewart said in the movie "How the West Was Won". "When your standing on the narrow ledge of a cliff, and your face to face with a grizzley bear, there's no denying the situation".
I'm starting to believe that this is more about losing face than dealing with reality. Hunter said that he expected this and that the players are prepared. Prepared for what? To lose money to no avail? If the season is lost, the players union would lose a minimum of 1.9 billion dollars. Thats based on last seasons BRI. Just how long would it take them to make that up even if they do get the original 52% that they were asking for? And they won't get that 52%. I believe that if the union truthfully informed the players, and put it to a vote, it would be approved. Hunter! You've accidently shot yourself in the foot. You have nothing to gain by shooting yourself in the other foot. Except more pain! You had a chance for a win/win. And now you've turned into a lose/lose. Brilliant!
As Jimmy Stewart said in the movie "How the West Was Won". "When your standing on the narrow ledge of a cliff, and your face to face with a grizzley bear, there's no denying the situation".
That's what I've been saying for awhile. They ARE close enough to make a deal but are whining about something as insignificant as sign & trades for over the cap teams. I've never seen a situation where an over the tax team made a sign and trade deal that threw off competitive balance or put them over the top.
Detroit traded for Rasheed at the midway point of the season. Same with the Lakers and Gasol. The Celtics traded for KG during the offseason but it wasn't a sign & trade deal. Dallas getting Chandler for Dampier was a straight swap.....
I seriously can't believe that both sides would blow this whole thing to kingdom come over something like that. If I'm the owners then I'm giving the players that concession but the players taking a hard line on it is confusing as well.
Detroit traded for Rasheed at the midway point of the season. Same with the Lakers and Gasol. The Celtics traded for KG during the offseason but it wasn't a sign & trade deal. Dallas getting Chandler for Dampier was a straight swap.....
I seriously can't believe that both sides would blow this whole thing to kingdom come over something like that. If I'm the owners then I'm giving the players that concession but the players taking a hard line on it is confusing as well.
Just who is this guy Kessler, and how much power does he have? It appears that everytime he's at the meetings, things blow up. Right now he's the main guy thats fanning the flames of disent. Almost all the negative rhetoric is coming from his mouth. I'm starting to think he has his eye on Hunters job. Here's a suggestion for Kessler. Instead of telling us what the players will agree to, how about asking them!
He has always been Stern's arch nemesis. When I say that the agents are to blame for this, I keep forgetting to mention Kessler's name.
He's not out for Hunter's job but he's the guy who does much of the hard line thinking and is behind all the decertification threats. He was that way in '95 then he was the union's right hand man again during the lockout of '98. He's considered "outside counsel" but he pulls a lot of strings.
He does the same for the NFL. The NFLPA and NBAPA are his two major clients as he serves as the chairman for the sports litigation arm of the firm Dewey & Lebouf.
At the end of the day, he knows a lot of legal terms and maneuvers that Hunter and Fisher have no clue about. Even the agents are confused about a lot of them so he gives them advice and unfortunately for us fans, more than just advice.
He's not out for Hunter's job but he's the guy who does much of the hard line thinking and is behind all the decertification threats. He was that way in '95 then he was the union's right hand man again during the lockout of '98. He's considered "outside counsel" but he pulls a lot of strings.
He does the same for the NFL. The NFLPA and NBAPA are his two major clients as he serves as the chairman for the sports litigation arm of the firm Dewey & Lebouf.
At the end of the day, he knows a lot of legal terms and maneuvers that Hunter and Fisher have no clue about. Even the agents are confused about a lot of them so he gives them advice and unfortunately for us fans, more than just advice.
Had a dream that the Kings played their first game 
They lost but it was because some no name guy we signed took 18 shots and went 1-18..
Then I had another dream that the Kings played an exhibition game against the Mavs as a "See what you are missing by not having a deal in place" game. UGH!
They lost but it was because some no name guy we signed took 18 shots and went 1-18.. Then I had another dream that the Kings played an exhibition game against the Mavs as a "See what you are missing by not having a deal in place" game. UGH!
For example, I dreamed that the Blazers were playing the Nuggets and Portland had Felton but the Nugz still had Melo. That one confused me. Is God saying that I'm in luck and will see Felton play for the Blazers since he's on their roster or is He saying that I'm stuck with no NBA and that if I want to watch it, I'll have to watch old recorded matchups. Melo being on the Nugz would be an example of that since he no longer plays for Denver.
Or another one where the Kings were playing Duke. WTH? Am I being told that we'll get to see the NBA (Kings) or that we're stuck with college ball (Duke)?
The worst was where I was taking batting practice on a golf course. Does this mean that the NBA becomes extinct and I have to get back into baseball or take up golf? Ugh.
We need some reason for optimism, so here's a recent tweet from Adrian Wojnarowski:
Hopefully the majority of players see how damaging (and pointless) it would be to miss the season - essentially just for a few of the stars who want to wimp out of any challenge and join up with other prima donnas in big markets.
Hopefully the majority of players see how damaging (and pointless) it would be to miss the season - essentially just for a few of the stars who want to wimp out of any challenge and join up with other prima donnas in big markets.
What I'm hoping for is a situation similar to what happened last time. In '98, the two sides couldn't come to an agreement so the league set a drop dead date in early January. With there still being no deal, Stern had the players vote what Stern claimed was his best possible proposal. Hunter knew that the players were getting desperate so he called a last second meeting and got a couple concessions out of the owners. Not much but better than what was going to be voted on.
That's what I HOPE happens this time. Hunter and Fisher don't let the players vote on it but call one last late night meeting where they get the owners to slightly cave on the no sign and trades for taxpayers deal or something like that and then get the players to vote on it, knowing that it would be them taking it to the players and not the owners with their ultimatum.
That's what I HOPE happens this time. Hunter and Fisher don't let the players vote on it but call one last late night meeting where they get the owners to slightly cave on the no sign and trades for taxpayers deal or something like that and then get the players to vote on it, knowing that it would be them taking it to the players and not the owners with their ultimatum.
Have a feeling this might happen too.. I believe it when Stern says the deals will get worst the longer it takes. The players aren't losing money in any deal that's made. The players don't have to pay the expenses that the owners do. The players get paid, and they do their thing, and they are all happy.. The owners have to worry about the bottom line, and the longer the strike goes on the worse the deal will get.
And the NBPA says no, via ESPN (link):
Whether or not they're the "bad guys" here, the players union is making it easy to hang that label on them, after the NBA adopts 5 of 6 compromise positions put forward by the impartial mediator (whose presence was requested by the players) and the players storm out saying it's unacceptable and they won't even put it up for a vote.
Whether or not they're the "bad guys" here, the players union is making it easy to hang that label on them, after the NBA adopts 5 of 6 compromise positions put forward by the impartial mediator (whose presence was requested by the players) and the players storm out saying it's unacceptable and they won't even put it up for a vote.
Kessler is a labor attorney of some note here in the city. Big name in legal circles in the field for a long time. In fact I think he was there when the NBA last did a lockout in '98 too. Never met him, although I do know several people with his firm who may have worked with him (Dewey is a big one, 1000+ lawyers worldwide). Know he also has some connection to Columbia law, and so LPKingsFan may actually know something of him.
In any case, he's the hammer over there. Hunter is actually a former U.S. Attorney, but you'd never know it from the way he acts and Stern always seems to have him perpetually on his heels. But Kessler is the big dog and has been in dozens of huge billion dollar type fights. He's just outside counsel, so its not his call. But I think they rely heavily on him for legal spine.
In any case, he's the hammer over there. Hunter is actually a former U.S. Attorney, but you'd never know it from the way he acts and Stern always seems to have him perpetually on his heels. But Kessler is the big dog and has been in dozens of huge billion dollar type fights. He's just outside counsel, so its not his call. But I think they rely heavily on him for legal spine.
If the players don't accept the offer, I hope they get a far, far worse deal when the deal finally gets done. Owners are idiots too for acting so stern (pardon the pun) - they should have been sympathetic and encouraging instead of acting authoritative. The players were never going to respond kindly to that considering their massive egos.
BTW the Times ran a story this morning with some details about both the current owners' offer set to expire on Weds., as well as the threatened 47% "reset" offer they say they are going to retreat to after that date:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/s...o-union-stern-details-his-ultimatum.html?_r=2
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/s...o-union-stern-details-his-ultimatum.html?_r=2
Here's a recent tweet from Wojo:
1 new tweet
» WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
by sam_amick
The NBA and NBPA are seriously discussing setting up a meeting for Tuesday to try and reach agreement on a labor deal, league source tells Y
There's nothing I look forward to more than another day of disappointment..
1 new tweet
» WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
by sam_amick
The NBA and NBPA are seriously discussing setting up a meeting for Tuesday to try and reach agreement on a labor deal, league source tells Y
There's nothing I look forward to more than another day of disappointment..
All these meetings and reports saying they will try to reach an agreement week in and week out is really getting annoying. Who knows what to believe anymore it's like they are all playing with our minds and just putting us in a phypnosis -_-. All this bickering between players and owners are making me hate the players that much more, why aren't the so called "superstars" getting more involved in talks?
quick note: from all the reports springing up there seems to be a movement amongst the rank and file union members to call for a vote on the owners' offer. Steve Blake and none other than our old friend Kevin Martin have been especially vocal (not to mention reasonable). Kobe is also said to be willing to sign at 50/50.
Wade and the Boston boys have been vocal hardliners, along with the fat scummy PG we hoisted onto Turkey this summer.
Wade and the Boston boys have been vocal hardliners, along with the fat scummy PG we hoisted onto Turkey this summer.
But I actually prefer this to a decertification vote being out there. If that happens, I just don't see the season happening. The owners and Stern will be pi$$ed and egos will get the best of common sense.
OTOH, a meeting with a couple tweeks here or there could produce an agreement. The players have their backs to the wall and will want to cut the best deal possible before a decertification vote takes place. If Fisher can recommend a deal to the players, I bet they ratify it. They're almost split right now and that's with Fisher saying he won't let it go to a vote. Put something out there that he recommends and I see this ramming through. But we've been fooled before.
OTOH, a meeting with a couple tweeks here or there could produce an agreement. The players have their backs to the wall and will want to cut the best deal possible before a decertification vote takes place. If Fisher can recommend a deal to the players, I bet they ratify it. They're almost split right now and that's with Fisher saying he won't let it go to a vote. Put something out there that he recommends and I see this ramming through. But we've been fooled before.