Fire Paul Westphal

#61
Was doing a little research on Westphal when I stumbled across some info on another fourm. Interesting stuff. Westphal inherited the head coaching job from Cotton Fitzsimmons who moved into the front office of the Suns. In his first year he took them to the finals where they lost in 6 games. They made the playoffs every year he was the head coach, but the team never made it back to the finals and the won/loss record slowly declined. After a bad start he was fired by Fitzsimmons, who move back into the head coaching positions. The average age of the team was 29 years of age, and included Charles Barkley and Danny Anige.

He coached highschool ball for two years before getting the head coaching job in Seattle after George Karl was fired. Once again he inherited a talented vetrean team and once again he took them to the playoffs every year he was there. But once again the win/loss record declined every year under him. Once again after a bad start he was fired. The average age of the team was 31 years of age, with no one on the entire team under 27 years of age.

He then landed the head coaching job at Pepperdine. He also inherited a good basketball team. The team fought for the conference title with Gonzaga and was awarded a berth in the NCAA tournament where they lost in the first round to Wake Forest. He coached the team for 5 years, but the team declined very quickly.

So what we can gleen from this is that Westphal is at least a decent coach with a talented and experienced team. We also know that he eventually wears out his welcome for some reason, even with an experienced team. Judging from his experience at Pepperdine, it appears he's not nearly as good with very young players. This is the part that concerns me, since the Kings are a very young team. Last year I had concerns about his rotations and constant tinkering with the starting lineup, but at least he was giving playing time to those players that we percieved as our core players. So I'm confused with just exactly he's trying to do so far this year. Thompson has gone from starter to averaging 14 minutes a game. Greene has gone from sometime starter and regular rotation player to a DNP position on the bench.

Yeah I know that one could argue that Greene deserves his fate for coming into camp out of shape. I can also agree that his minutes should be cut back until he gets back into shape. But to not play him at all, I don't get. I know that some have argued that Thompson has been inconsistent so far. Really! In his first five game he had two that were very good games and three where he couldn't get anything going. Let me see. Landry had 6 games in a row where he stunk up the place and last time I checked he was still getting his minutes. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander as they say.

I'll tell you one thing about young people. They know BS when they see it. They know when there's one set of rules for one person and another set for everyone else. If the one player is Michael Jordan, you can get away with it. Last time I checked there aren't any Jordan's on this team. At least not yet. If you want to let your point guard dribble the ball for 15 seconds of every shot clock, thats fine. If your OK with having a PF that has no idea of what the word pass means and basicly shoots the ball every time he touches it, that also fine. Thats what you decided and your the head coach. But don't go into the locker room at half time and call out Cousins for being selfish with the ball, especially when he only touched the ball a few times and was otherwise effective. And this isn't about Cousins, its about hypocrisy. Vetrean players have all seen it before and don't pay that much attention to it. But young players actually believe in the coach and trust him. They'll also turn on him in a heartbeat if they suspect he's BS ing them.

Westphal needs to revise his approach to his rotations and the way he distributes the minutes. One thing a coach needs is respect and in turn loyality. If Westphal loses the respect of the players he's done.
Should have went after Byron Scott this past year.

We cant get Adelman back, but we could get the closest thing, Elston Turner.
 
#62
I do not buy into the argument that if we hit more outside shots we'd be 6-3. Our offense this year, generally speaking, is out of rhythm and without clear roles, and ball movement/moving off the ball is also pee poor. Is landry shooting jump shots or attacking the low post? Is reke driving the ball or looking for teammates in a ways that inspire or encourage them to move off the ball in ways to get looks? Are we focused on getting cousins the ball down low or should we use him at the high post more? Roles aren't clear. Part is coaching, part is inexperience, part is plain lack of talent to consistency play a role that is supposed to be one's strength. Some players just aren't (yet) consisently good at what we look for them to be good at (i.e., cannot be counted on and therefore don't earn trust of others). The problem for me is, I watch the offense, and it's often not clear to me what we are trying to accomplish beyond isos, forced shots, reke's drives and dishes that lead to rimshot jumpers. Do we have an effective system, in theory, that we are not good at running? Or is our coach not instituting a system that fits our personnell, and instead always experimenting with something new, just hoping players figure out a way to score, based on the percieived strengths of individual players? If it's the latter, it is not what a young team needs. They need to improve as basketball players, not just individually in terms of skills. I just do not see anyone yet this year getting better as basketball players (being effective within a system as well as individually). I will give it more time - young team, etc. But it's frustrating. If it continues with little improvement then, yes, I will blame Westphal.
 
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#63
Not PW's fault. GP has to go

Westphal seems to be the consensus scapegoat now but does anyone really think this team would be significantly better under another coach? I don't.
It's not PW's fault that we can't shoot FT or shoot wide open shots. Try getting better shooters for a change. That's really important. GP is sleeping at the wheel. I think that after going through 4 different coaches in 8 years or something, we've proven that the coach is not the problem but the GM.
After drafting Cousins, you'd think that we get a shooter in the second round but we drafted another 6'11" guy to give us 4 on the roster.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#64
It's not PW's fault that we can't shoot FT or shoot wide open shots. Try getting better shooters for a change. That's really important. GP is sleeping at the wheel. I think that after going through 4 different coaches in 8 years or something, we've proven that the coach is not the problem but the GM.
After drafting Cousins, you'd think that we get a shooter in the second round but we drafted another 6'11" guy to give us 4 on the roster.
Yes. And it was absolutely the RIGHT draft pick. Shooters are relatively easy to pick up if you need them. And this is about the first time in Kings history GP has come up short of them. 6'11" shotblockers are MUCH more valuable and difficult to acquire.

We have a ton of young talent right now. Maybe the most in the entire league. The last person who deserves any blame at this particular moment in time is the guy who drafted/acquired all of them. Just going to take time. May even take a new coach. But the talent, and yes, the size, is already onboard.
 
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#66
PW's rotations continue to infuriate me!

Tyreke/Beno
Tyreke/Cisco
Casspi/Greene
Landry/Thompson
Dally/DMC

Our line up SHOULD ALWAYS be some combination of these players in the CORRECT positions unless ppl get in foul trouble.




ps to the jokers: Obviously Tyreke doesn't play twice - the point is that he is in all the time with either Beno or Cisco playing compliment guard. Only time he should be out is for some rest or if he gets in foul trouble.
 
L

LWP777

Guest
#67
Yes. And it was absolutely the RIGHT draft pick. Shooters are relatively easy to pick up if you need them. And this is about the first time in Kings history GP has come up short of them. 6'11" shotblockers are MUCH more valuable and difficult to acquire.

We have a ton of young talent right now. Maybe the most in the entire league. The last person who deserves any blame at this particular moment in time is the guy who drafted/acquired all of them. Just going to take time. May even take a new coach. But the talent, and yes, the size, is already onboard.

See this is where I just disagree. There is NO CHANCE that we have the most talent in the league. I think we as collective passionate fans have way overestimated our talent. Right now on the roster, there are exactly TWO guys who have talent and that's Tyreke and Cousins. Keep in mind that nearly every player in the NBA is talented. They are the world's best athletes. Just because we are young doesn't not mean we are talented. I remember a couple of years ago when the Thunder only won like 20 games but they had Durant, Westbrook, and Green. Now that's talent. Let's look at our roster:

Evans -- Talented

Cousins -- Talented but not nearly at the same point that Evans was in his rookie year. It's very possible that he'll end up too much of a head case and end up as the next Kenyon Martin type player.

Casspi -- Total garbage. Way overrated. Not a great shooter. Bad FT shooter. Terrible passer. Selfish. Probably wouldn't even sniff the floor on a solid playoff team.

Greene -- Again, way overrated in the "talent" department. Just because you're 6"11 and think you're a SG doesn't mean your talented. He's not even motivated to work hard in the summer when he knew coming in that there was more competition for his minutes.

Thompson -- We are seeing that he will be nothing more than a hyper-active role player in this league. He's not talented at all.

Whiteside -- Can't even get on the active roster let alone see the floor.

Landry, Garcia, Beno, Sammy, etc. -- NBA role players who are playing huge minutes for us.


I would actually argue that one of the big reasons we aren't very good is because of a LACK of talent. Again, there is no guarantee you will be good one day just because you have young players.
 
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#69
Yes. And it was absolutely the RIGHT draft pick. Shooters are relatively easy to pick up if you need them. And this is about the first time in Kings history GP has come up short of them. 6'11" shotblockers are MUCH more valuable and difficult to acquire.

We have a ton of young talent right now. Maybe the most in the entire league. The last person who deserves any blame at this particular moment in time is the guy who drafted/acquired all of them. Just going to take time. May even take a new coach. But the talent, and yes, the size, is already onboard.
If shooters are easy to find, then why don't we have any?
 
#70
Carl Landry is by far the better offensive player right now, but Thompson is a better rebounder and a better defender despite the fouls and has better size for the position. Giving up on Thompson and his foul problem seems short-sighted and counter productive to me. He's with his third head coach already and that's tough on any player. I don't think we should assume his coach-ability is a problem. A young 6-11 PF with a decent skill level is a valuable commodity. He put up 12.5 and 8.5 last season. Those are respectable numbers for a second year player. I like Carl Landry. He's struggled a bit this season so far but he's a dependable veteran. But we have a size disadvantage whenever he's out there. It's better for this team long term if Thompson gets better and Thompson starts.
Considering we have the leagues worst defense right now I think we need Thompson on the floor more than Landry.
http://knickerblogger.net/statpage/2011/Kings.htm When we traded for Landry I always assumed it was so he could take the scoring load while Tyreke was on the bench. He only started one career game before the Kings, so why did we think he could be a starter?

More food for thought from 82games.com through 11/11
Landry PER vs. Opponent PER = -7.5
Thompson PER vs. Opponent PER = 1.2

Rebounding Rate/Shot Blocking Rate while on floor
Landry -4.8%/-5%
Thompson 5.5%/-1%

Now I know this is a small sample size and Thompson is having shooting troubles, but I think it's obvious at this point Landry needs to come off the bench when he can give 20 minutes of focused low post offensive.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#71
If shooters are easy to find, then why don't we have any?
We thought we had enough. And indeed the truth is that we still might -- basically every shooter but Cisco is underperforming vis a vis their career numbers.

And there are a dozen quality shooters that could be had for a song around the league (off the top of my head: Rudy Fernandez, Ben Gordon, Jamal Crawford, Jason Kapono, Jose Calderon, Peja Stojakovic, several Cavs, I'm wondering about Marcus Thornton at this point, the Pacers are overstocked etc.) if we were interested. But there is a real question whether its worth it to go out and take on salary to get a guy who's basically a roleplayer when we have carefully saved up capspace to have a strong summer.
 
#72
We thought we had enough. And indeed the truth is that we still might -- basically every shooter but Cisco is underperforming vis a vis their career numbers.

And there are a dozen quality shooters that could be had for a song around the league (off the top of my head: Rudy Fernandez, Ben Gordon, Jamal Crawford, Jason Kapono, Jose Calderon, Peja Stojakovic, several Cavs, I'm wondering about Marcus Thornton at this point, the Pacers are overstocked etc.) if we were interested. But there is a real question whether its worth it to go out and take on salary to get a guy who's basically a roleplayer when we have carefully saved up capspace to have a strong summer.
Our shooters are always going to underperform until we get an offensive system. Even if we had Ray Allen, he would underperform here. On the Celtics, Allen knows exactly when, where, and in what circumstances he can expect to get the ball, and by the play called and the type of ball movement, he knows to mentally prepare for that shot.

Our shooters here, on the other hand, have no clue when and where they will get the ball, and usually receive the ball out of rhythm and when all else fails. That's a recipe for making a low percentage on outside shots. On any shots, actually. The main advantage an offense has over the opposing team's defense is the fact that the offensive team knows what it's going to do before the defending team does. Unfotunately, it does not seem like that in the case of the Sacramento Kings.
 
#73
See this is where I just disagree. There is NO CHANCE that we have the most talent in the league. I think we as collective passionate fans have way overestimated our talent. Right now on the roster, there are exactly TWO guys who have talent and that's Tyreke and Cousins. Keep in mind that nearly every player in the NBA is talented. They are the world's best athletes. Just because we are young doesn't not mean we are talented. I remember a couple of years ago when the Thunder only won like 20 games but they had Durant, Westbrook, and Green. Now that's talent. Let's look at our roster:
Posters on KF, overrating the Kings? That NEVER happens. ;)
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#74
See this is where I just disagree. There is NO CHANCE that we have the most talent in the league. I think we as collective passionate fans have way overestimated our talent. Right now on the roster, there are exactly TWO guys who have talent and that's Tyreke and Cousins. Keep in mind that nearly every player in the NBA is talented. They are the world's best athletes. Just because we are young doesn't not mean we are talented. I remember a couple of years ago when the Thunder only won like 20 games but they had Durant, Westbrook, and Green. Now that's talent. Let's look at our roster:

Evans -- Talented

Cousins -- Talented but not nearly at the same point that Evans was in his rookie year. It's very possible that he'll end up too much of a head case and end up as the next Kenyon Martin type player.

Casspi -- Total garbage. Way overrated. Not a great shooter. Bad FT shooter. Terrible passer. Selfish. Probably wouldn't even sniff the floor on a solid playoff team.

Greene -- Again, way overrated in the "talent" department. Just because you're 6"11 and think you're a SG doesn't mean your talented. He's not even motivated to work hard in the summer when he knew coming in that there was more competition for his minutes.

Thompson -- We are seeing that he will be nothing more than a hyper-active role player in this league. He's not talented at all.

Whiteside -- Can't even get on the active roster let alone see the floor.

Landry, Garcia, Beno, Sammy, etc. -- NBA role players who are playing huge minutes for us.


I would actually argue that one of the big reasons we aren't very good is because of a LACK of talent. Again, there is no guarantee you will be good one day just because you have young players.
People around the rest of the country appear to have way overestimated our talent too.

Or alternately you have let your disappointment over a slow start slash unreasonably into your ability to judge talent.
 
#75
It's not PW's fault that we can't shoot FT or shoot wide open shots. Try getting better shooters for a change. That's really important. GP is sleeping at the wheel. I think that after going through 4 different coaches in 8 years or something, we've proven that the coach is not the problem but the GM.
After drafting Cousins, you'd think that we get a shooter in the second round but we drafted another 6'11" guy to give us 4 on the roster.
Whiteside fell into our lap in the second round. I dont know how anyone can complain about that pick. If we DIDNT get him and he was on the board this place would have went nuts. Wait till Dally, Jackson, and Landry leave next year. Hopefully we can see him play.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#76
See this is where I just disagree. There is NO CHANCE that we have the most talent in the league. I think we as collective passionate fans have way overestimated our talent. Right now on the roster, there are exactly TWO guys who have talent and that's Tyreke and Cousins. Keep in mind that nearly every player in the NBA is talented. They are the world's best athletes. Just because we are young doesn't not mean we are talented. I remember a couple of years ago when the Thunder only won like 20 games but they had Durant, Westbrook, and Green. Now that's talent. Let's look at our roster:

Evans -- Talented

Cousins -- Talented but not nearly at the same point that Evans was in his rookie year. It's very possible that he'll end up too much of a head case and end up as the next Kenyon Martin type player.

Casspi -- Total garbage. Way overrated. Not a great shooter. Bad FT shooter. Terrible passer. Selfish. Probably wouldn't even sniff the floor on a solid playoff team.

Greene -- Again, way overrated in the "talent" department. Just because you're 6"11 and think you're a SG doesn't mean your talented. He's not even motivated to work hard in the summer when he knew coming in that there was more competition for his minutes.

Thompson -- We are seeing that he will be nothing more than a hyper-active role player in this league. He's not talented at all.

Whiteside -- Can't even get on the active roster let alone see the floor.

Landry, Garcia, Beno, Sammy, etc. -- NBA role players who are playing huge minutes for us.


I would actually argue that one of the big reasons we aren't very good is because of a LACK of talent. Again, there is no guarantee you will be good one day just because you have young players.
In the first place, he didn't say we had the most talent in the league, he said we had the most young talent in the league. Look, I understand your frustration. We all want to win, but we also have to keep prespective. Yes its a young team, and I happen to think its a very talented one. But seven of the players on the team wern't even here last year. Two of those seven are rookies and I might add, young rookies with very little college experience to boot. Casspi is only in his second year. To call him, or for that matter anyone garbage is ridiculous. Sorry, I don't like that term when directed toward decent human beings, players or not.

Casspi shot just under 38% from behind the arc last year while Head shot just over 38% from behind the arc. Both are pretty good shooters from long range. Its just that at the moment, their not going in. You can't just take a small sampling and label a player. Well you can, but you'd be wrong. There are a lot of things wrong right now and I don't think any of has to to with the talent level. I've already said my piece on what I think the problems are so there's no need for me to go over them again.
 
#83
Westphal is just one of a number of problems. The bigger problem is this: Bad things usually happen to the teams that have ultra-low payrolls. The Kings have an ultra-low payroll. As such, the team has basically one star, Tyreke Evans.

There really is nothing else to brag about on this roster. Nothing more than role-players.

Sure, blame Westphal. I blame the owners.
 
#85
Plus, if our owners Maloof decide that they want Westphal's head (I doubt they'd do it until about a month from now like say Dec 15 - date they fired Theus), meaning we'd be stuck with an interim coach like maybe Mario Ellie to the rescue. Ellie is of Haitian background, Dalembert is from Haiti - let's all jump on the bandwagon to exciting Club Med Port au Prince! On second thought, I think not, and agree Paul Westphal is not the main problem of a very young Kings team still finding itself after coming off miserable 17 and 25 win seasons.
 
#86
After today i am sure the main problem is our coach.
it's embarrassing to lose a home game to the knicks...
we have no defance at all, and you can only blame the coach for it.
You need to learn defance, it is a system, how to cover, what to do against pick n rolls etc.
our players look lost in there.
yes the team is young, but we have some really good players and six games in a raw most of them home games, are too much. PW is loosing the players trust.
 
#89
I don't care about not having a replacement at this point, get rid of him. What does this guy do? Rotations suck. Offense sucks. Defense sucks. Player development is minimal. Changing/fixing things game to game is minimal. Game planning/exploiting match ups is minimal.


Seriously, what does PW do that helps this team?
 
#90
im not completely lost by westphal. He did do some good things tonight with DMC, Head, and Greene. JT situation needs to be fixed though. and our lineups need to be defined asap.