All about Bosh (merged)

['89 Kings Fan]

Put me down in the NO column when it comes to Bosh.

1. Getting the star of the team that may be the worst defensive team in the history of the NBA is no way to move forward:

http://www.basketball-reference.com...al=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=def_rtg

Thanks to Basketbawful. Also check out team #2 on the list.

2. Beware the ides of the March, I mean contract years. (See Erik Dampier, Mark Blount, Tim Thomas, etc.)

3. His rebound numbers remind me off Bonzi's rebound numbers when he was here. Hedo and Bargnani are going to get as many rebounds as Peja and SAR.

4. Without knowing where he is going to sign next season he could just be a very expensive rental.

 

[sidney]

This is the same question I'm asking. Is it just the marquee value? Bosh averages 11.1 RPG. Thompson averages 9.3 RPG. Bosh is averaging 1.0 Blocks per game. Thompson is averaging 1.1 blocks per game. Thompson is only in his second year. The only dramatic stat difference between them is PPG. Where Bosh is at 23.8 PPG and Thompson is at 15.5 PPG.

So do you turn the team upside down to gain 1.7 RPG, because offense hasn't been the problem for the team. Defense has! And Bosh doesn't address that problem. If Bosh is such a difference maker, then whats wrong in Toronto. Why isn't he making a difference there? Its not as though their team is chopped liver. They have Hedo and a very good point guard in Calderon. Bargnani is playing well, and certainly looks better than Hawes right now. When you add in the uncertainty of resigning him, it doesn't make any sense to me.

You may be right, but when I watch JT it just doesn't seem like his game to dominate on offense. It's kind of like comparing Evans to players with similar stats and asking what the difference is. Well...you can just see him dominate at the end of games when he needs to. There is something special there that the other scorers don't have. Bosh can flat out dominate on the offensive end and on the boards.

I mean...do you ever really want to just "get it to JT" on the last possession? Does it seem like he'll ever be that clutch guy? Bosh already is and barring injury will be for the life of his next contract

 

[Double-K]

It is the cost of doing business and accumulating talents like that. Your choices are to either not acquire talents at that level, and accordingly not win, or to "overpay" for them, but have a chance to win.

That's the key right here, people. You can argue about the "value" of a max contract all day long. Fact is if you don't overpay someone and hope for the chance of that someone eventually reach the potential of qualifing for that contract, you just won't win.

 

[reid1boys]

Fact is if you don't overpay someone and hope for the chance of that someone eventually reach the potential of qualifing for that contract, you just won't win.




Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding........... We have a winner.

What is the expresion, Sh.. or get off the pot.

The Kings are on the pot for this season and next. They have an opportunity to take a shot at becoming an elite team again. But you wont do so if you dont take a shot at someone, and Bosh is the best someone out there IMO. There were also many people that were not hot on Webber because of his problems prior to coming to Sac. Nothing is for sure. The only thing that is for sure is that if this team stays and does nothing, we will not get better.


I want Bosh, but I want to pair him with JT, not trade JT away. So when comparing JT and Bosh as players, I dont care what JT does compared to Bosh, cause I want both.

Can you do it... maybe, maybe not. Lets just hope that atthe minimum, the Kings are trying to do something.

 

['89 Kings Fan]

So start naming some VIABLE names out there that could make the Kings a contender that are going ot be available bigs via trade or free agency. Take Bosh off your list and then lets begin. And dont mention LJ, cause he aint coming to Sac.

Most likely our future big man star is not even in the league yet. Tyreke is the 2nd youngest person in the NBA. The most likely path to acquiring our future big is through the draft. There are plenty of teams over the luxury tax, who would be willing to give up next years draft pick. The Horents, Wizards, Suns, and Heat picks could all be had if we were to add a little salary.

 

[reid1boys]

Draft... are you kidding?? Spencer was the big man they drafted to fill that spot at number 10 I believe, this is his 3rd season. Is he ready to take the mantle as our big??

The draft is a crapshoot. Hell, 50% of the people on this board were begging that the Kings draft Rubio. Nobody knows for sure what will happen, unless a player like Duncan or Shaq comes through the pike. But players like that go 1 or 2 and what are the odds of the Kings getting that?

Any big drafted 5-10 will then need a few years to really come around, and then at that you HOPE that the player you draft works out. We dont need to draft a big and hope. With the current roster, we need to get a FA that is a proven inside presence to go along with our current roster.

This roster is primed IMO to make a move in the next 2 seasons to return to elite status. Look at the current state of the west. The Lakers, Spus, Dallas... all of them only have a few more years left. They are getting older by the day. We can not HOPE the draft is where we get it done.

 

[ParniValjak]

Rashard Lewis leaving the Sonics for Orlando and Joe Johnson leaving the Suns for Atlanta come to mind, but if I remember right neither home team wanted to pay the max salary which is why they left? Also, I believe in both cases the star pushed for a sign and trade so they could get that extra year and higher yearly raises.

I think you are right that the team with bird rights has always ended up being able to get some value.

Neither of those were or even still are franchise player (Joe being closer to being one than Lewis).

Joe was a good young player but no where near what he is now and everyone was saying that Rashard was majorly overpaid. Orlando was the only team prepared to pay anywhere near the amount.

When I say franchise player, its the player that their team was build around. Suns were built around Nash and Amare when Joe left and Sonics were build around Ray Ray.

Last franchise player to leave his team in FA was Shaq and that was well before the current bargaining agreement was in place!

 

[kupman]

Comparing Bosh and JTs offensive game is a very bad joke seen through some very purple glasses.

In other news Kyle Lowry's offensive game is pretty much the same as Tyreke's. They both like to power inside and overpower weaker PGs.

Reading this thread I am beginning to think that you and I are the only ones who think this way. It seems that most think that JT is a small step down from Bosh and I see a really big difference between the two......as in, no real comparsion.

Maybe, just maybe, JT becomes Bosh-like one day - but I doubt it.

 

[ParniValjak]

Reading this thread I am beginning to think that you and I are the only ones who think this way. It seems that most think that JT is a small step down from Bosh and I see a really big difference between the two......as in, no real comparsion.

Maybe, just maybe, JT becomes Bosh-like one day - but I doubt it.

JT will NEVER be Bosh like and all those JT hommies can bookmark this and bring it up when ever they feel like it.

Quite simply we are talking a very big difference in the talent level here. Bosh is a perennial all-star and one of the very best PFs in the league.

JT is just and energiser bunny that gets by on husle and some skill but he is no where near as skilled as Bosh and will never reach that level.

The VERY best case scenatio for JT is a 17/10 type player. Now thats not bad in itself. He is already a useful NBA player, a good player but will never be a 23/11 player that Bosh is.

We are seeing the very same argument on this board as we heard form the groups of Peja = Bird and Kevin = Kobe. Quite simply its a token of undeniable homerism and looking at it with purple coloured glasses.

 

['89 Kings Fan]

Draft... are you kidding?? Spencer was the big man they drafted to fill that spot at number 10 I believe, this is his 3rd season. Is he ready to take the mantle as our big??

Look at all the top 25 big men and how they were acquired:
(I am using PER as an objective measure from http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2010/jh_ALL_PER.htm )

Tim Duncan (28.8) Draft
Chris Bosh (27.0) Draft
Dirk Nowitzki (25.4) Draft
Pau Gasol (24.3) Trade via Inside Job
Dwight Howard (23.9) Draft
Josh Smith (23.6) Draft
Kevin Love (23.4) Draft
Carl Landry (23.4) Draft
Greg Oden (23.4) Draft
Kevin Garnett (21.4) Trade via Inside Job
Carlos Boozer (21.4) FA Stabbed a blind man in the back
Zach Randolph (20.9) Trade (Crazy)
Book Lopez (20.8) Draft
David Lee (20.6) Draft
Marc Gasol (20.1) Traded for Brother
Adrew Bynum (20.1) Draft
Marcus Camby (19.7) Trade (Salary Dump)
Amare Stoudemire (18.8) Draft
Al Jefferson (18.6) Traded for Garnett
Kendrik Perkins (18.1) Draft (with our traded pick by the way)
Troy Murphy (17.9) Trade (Salary Dump)
Jason Thompson (17.9) Draft
Emeka Okafor (17.7) Trade (Salary Dump)
Jermain O'Neal (17.6) (Salary Dump)
Andrew Bogut (17.5) Draft

So you 15 who were drafted, 4 who were trade for each other both by GMs to their former teams, 1 FA signing because he was a 2nd rounder which will never happen again, 4 Trades to dump salary and 1 crazy Zach Randolph. If you look at the next 25, 14 were drafted by their initial team. Since Bosh is expiring he won't be traded as a salary dump, which unless Bryan Colangelo used to play for us, I don't see him traded.

The last time a top big man was traded in a non-salary dump trade trade? Chris Webber for Mitch Richmond.

Petrie's ability to draft big men does not change the fact that in the modern NBA that is how star PF and C are acquired.

 

[reid1boys]

No doubt the draft is where EVERY player comes from, and stars in this league, be it big men or guards, or small forwards dont change teams very often until they are getting older or are in trouble off the court. You just dont know when you draft a player that they are for sure going to turn out to be a STAR (a few exceptions like Shaq, LJ, Duncan etc).

So to say big men are found in the draft is like saying you find diamonds in a diamond mine.


And you even make the point more clear. Bosh is out there, and the opportunity to land a player of his size and caliber doesnt come around very often, especially a player that has just entered his prime.

 

[bajaden]

You may be right, but when I watch JT it just doesn't seem like his game to dominate on offense. It's kind of like comparing Evans to players with similar stats and asking what the difference is. Well...you can just see him dominate at the end of games when he needs to. There is something special there that the other scorers don't have. Bosh can flat out dominate on the offensive end and on the boards.

I mean...do you ever really want to just "get it to JT" on the last possession? Does it seem like he'll ever be that clutch guy? Bosh already is and barring injury will be for the life of his next contract

Remember that your comparing Bosh, in year number 7 of his career to Thompson, in year number 2 of his career. When Bosh was in his second year he wasn't any more dominate than Thompson is right now. I know we live in this instant gratification society, but sometimes what you have. will end up being better than what you want to exchange it for. As I stated, Bosh will give you 1.7 more rebounds a game than Thompson does right now. He hasn't been a difference maker at Toronto.

Also, remember that one of the knocks on Webber before he came to the Kings was that he wasn't the go to guy at the end of the game. To be honest, I'm not sure he ever became the go to guy, but he did finally shed the mantle of it. Unless you really luck out and get a very special player in the draft, like a Tyreke, it takes three years to know what you have. All you look for in year number two, is significant improvement over year number one. And I'm seeing that improvement, little by little.

 

[bajaden]

Reading this thread I am beginning to think that you and I are the only ones who think this way. It seems that most think that JT is a small step down from Bosh and I see a really big difference between the two......as in, no real comparsion.

Maybe, just maybe, JT becomes Bosh-like one day - but I doubt it.

Why? I'm serious, why? Bosh wasn't any better in his second year than Thompson is right now in his second year. So do you have some crystal ball that I don't have. Please don't give me the purple glass crap. I can see talent just a good as the next person. But I can't see into the future any better than anyone else. So no! I can't guarantee that Thompson will be as good or better than Bosh. I admit that. But there is no one on this fourm that can guarantee me that he won't be. So personally, I would like to wait and see.

 

[Nighthawk1]

Look at all the top 25 big men and how they were acquired:
(I am using PER as an objective measure from http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2010/jh_ALL_PER.htm )

Tim Duncan (28.8) Draft
Chris Bosh (27.0) Draft
Dirk Nowitzki (25.4) Draft
Pau Gasol (24.3) Trade via Inside Job
Dwight Howard (23.9) Draft
Josh Smith (23.6) Draft
Kevin Love (23.4) Draft
Carl Landry (23.4) Draft
Greg Oden (23.4) Draft
Kevin Garnett (21.4) Trade via Inside Job
Carlos Boozer (21.4) FA Stabbed a blind man in the back
Zach Randolph (20.9) Trade (Crazy)
Book Lopez (20.8) Draft
David Lee (20.6) Draft
Marc Gasol (20.1) Traded for Brother
Adrew Bynum (20.1) Draft
Marcus Camby (19.7) Trade (Salary Dump)
Amare Stoudemire (18.8) Draft
Al Jefferson (18.6) Traded for Garnett
Kendrik Perkins (18.1) Draft (with our traded pick by the way)
Troy Murphy (17.9) Trade (Salary Dump)
Jason Thompson (17.9) Draft
Emeka Okafor (17.7) Trade (Salary Dump)
Jermain O'Neal (17.6) (Salary Dump)
Andrew Bogut (17.5) Draft

So you 15 who were drafted, 4 who were trade for each other both by GMs to their former teams, 1 FA signing because he was a 2nd rounder which will never happen again, 4 Trades to dump salary and 1 crazy Zach Randolph. If you look at the next 25, 14 were drafted by their initial team. Since Bosh is expiring he won't be traded as a salary dump, which unless Bryan Colangelo used to play for us, I don't see him traded.

The last time a top big man was traded in a non-salary dump trade trade? Chris Webber for Mitch Richmond.

Petrie's ability to draft big men does not change the fact that in the modern NBA that is how star PF and C are acquired.

Ok, every big man comes drafted. But for every one of those high PER players that you want to use there are the Kwame's, Bargnani's, Shelden Williams, Morrison's, Diogu, Darko's, Swifts, Olawakandi, LeFrentz that bust at an equally high rate out of the top of the draft. We're lucky we have GP who is a pretty good skill evaluator but still the draft is no sure thing.

 

[reid1boys]

JT could end up a 20-10 guy. He had NO LEFT last year. He actually uses it this year. His short range jumper is looking SWEET. He has the baby hook, his offensive game is much better than last year.

Jerry Reynolds has been touting his short jumper for weeks and JT has actually started using it the past 2 weeks, and it looks very good to me.

Jt can be a star in the league, likely not a super star.

 

[Kingster]

Every game that goes by this Bosh talk becomes more and more irrelevant, as Thompson is getting better and better.

 

[VF21]

Ok, every big man comes drafted. But for every one of those high PER players that you want to use there are the Kwame's, Bargnani's, Shelden Williams, Morrison's, Diogu, Darko's, Swifts, Olawakandi, LeFrentz that bust at an equally high rate out of the top of the draft. We're lucky we have GP who is a pretty good skill evaluator but still the draft is no sure thing.

Brad Miller wasn't drafted. Not comparing him with the 5's being discussed, just sayin'...

 

[SacKings7]

Brad Miller wasn't drafted. Not comparing him with the 5's being discussed, just sayin'...

Neither was Ben Wallace

 

[ParniValjak]

Every game that goes by this Bosh talk becomes more and more irrelevant, as Thompson is getting better and better.

I would say that every time Tyreke displays his superstar ability especially in late game situations, the talk of getting Bosh becomes more and more relevant.

 

[sidney]

Remember that your comparing Bosh, in year number 7 of his career to Thompson, in year number 2 of his career. When Bosh was in his second year he wasn't any more dominate than Thompson is right now. I know we live in this instant gratification society, but sometimes what you have. will end up being better than what you want to exchange it for. As I stated, Bosh will give you 1.7 more rebounds a game than Thompson does right now. He hasn't been a difference maker at Toronto.

Also, remember that one of the knocks on Webber before he came to the Kings was that he wasn't the go to guy at the end of the game. To be honest, I'm not sure he ever became the go to guy, but he did finally shed the mantle of it. Unless you really luck out and get a very special player in the draft, like a Tyreke, it takes three years to know what you have. All you look for in year number two, is significant improvement over year number one. And I'm seeing that improvement, little by little.

One way to look at it is Bosh is in year 7 and JT is in year 2.

Another way is that Bosh is 25 and JT is 23. By age 23 Bosh already had a couple of 22/10ish seasons under his belt.

 

[Bricklayer]

Jt can be a star in the league, likely not a super star.

Uh, really going out on a limb there eh?

You could replay the upcoming 10 seasons a million times and have Jason turn into a superstar in exactly zero of them. Its just ridiculous to even ponder.

Now whether he could one day become an 18-10 guy, at least there we can talk. However it should be noted that 18-10 guys typically have to do it in the face of teams gearing their defense toward them, and every team that has geared their defense toward Jason shuts him down. He gives many more indicators of good suport player who takes advanatge of teams that do not pay attention to him than star level player going right into the teeth of a set defense and beating it.

 

[reid1boys]

My entire thought process revolves around my thoughts that the Kings are 1 really good big man away from being a real cntender again in the NBA. That is certainly not any guarantee. If you accept that premise, then you can not sit around and work the draft. The draft is a CRAP SHOOT, unless the likes of Ewing, Shaq, Duncan, Kareem, or Russel are available and you have the top pick in the draft. None of that is going to be taking place anytime soon.

If the draft were a sure thing, then the Kings would have selected Karl Malone in 1985 and not Joe Klein.


So, that puts us back to where we started. Who is the best possible PF/C that could be available to the Kings via free agency or trade.

There are really only 2 in my mind that fit the above: Omeka Okafor and Chris Bosh. And I just dont like 1 dimensional players all that much... but I think Okafor brings some toughness we could use. So I could buy off on Okafor, although I havent looked at his contract to see how I like that.

All the rest of our bantering is irrelevant, as I havent heard any person on this board say they think the current team as it stands cold be real contenders in 2 more seasons with the current roster.

 

[Emma]

There are really only 2 in my mind that fit the above: Omeka Okafor and Chris Bosh. And I just dont like 1 dimensional players all that much... but I think Okafor brings some toughness we could use. So I could buy off on Okafor, although I havent looked at his contract to see how I like that.

All the rest of our bantering is irrelevant, as I havent heard any person on this board say they think the current team as it stands cold be real contenders in 2 more seasons with the current roster.

Okafor's contract is pretty massive. It's the only reason he's even available. NO is hemorrhaging money and don't want his 5 years, roughly 55 million on the books. Upside to landing Okafor: K9 for Okafor straight up works.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Okafor is remarkably affordable by big man standards. I think if Okafor for Kenny was a real possibility you could still be a player for a Bosh sign and trade if you're willing to move Kevin + Hawes or JT (one of whom would be redundant) and throw ins to match the salaries and be a championship contender overnight.

 

[OptimusRhyme]

This is the same question I'm asking. Is it just the marquee value? Bosh averages 11.1 RPG. Thompson averages 9.3 RPG. Bosh is averaging 1.0 Blocks per game. Thompson is averaging 1.1 blocks per game. Thompson is only in his second year. The only dramatic stat difference between them is PPG. Where Bosh is at 23.8 PPG and Thompson is at 15.5 PPG.

So do you turn the team upside down to gain 1.7 RPG, because offense hasn't been the problem for the team. Defense has! And Bosh doesn't address that problem. If Bosh is such a difference maker, then whats wrong in Toronto. Why isn't he making a difference there? Its not as though their team is chopped liver. They have Hedo and a very good point guard in Calderon. Bargnani is playing well, and certainly looks better than Hawes right now. When you add in the uncertainty of resigning him, it doesn't make any sense to me.

I think its the marquee value that people see in him.

I watch the raps all the time livin up here in Canada, and they have been terrible defenders in the paint for as long as I remember. And Bosh does have alot to do with that.

hes a great player but hes not what we need and especially for the money he is going to demand.

Bosh is a scorer, we need a goalie. players like Biedrins, Noah, and even Blatche (who has shown good defense in little MPG.) are the players we should be targeting.. If not them well then we have capspace and draft picks to make the right descision sooner rather then later..

We dont need Bosh' scoring, considering we will have probably the highest scoring backcourt in the NBA soon. We need DEFENSE!!!!!

I just dont think we should be rushing to blow up our team for a "marquee" guy that hasnt proven alot (teamwise) in toronto. and is not the type of defender we need.

 

[reid1boys]

I doubt that NO is willing to trade Okafor straight up as nothing more than a salary dump. But once again, you never know unless you pick up a phone and find out.

 

['89 Kings Fan]

Ok, every big man comes drafted. But for every one of those high PER players that you want to use there are the Kwame's, Bargnani's, Shelden Williams, Morrison's, Diogu, Darko's, Swifts, Olawakandi, LeFrentz that bust at an equally high rate out of the top of the draft. We're lucky we have GP who is a pretty good skill evaluator but still the draft is no sure thing.

I see my point did not get across. Big men only are moved when they are
A. Too Old
B. Too Expensive
C. An Inside Job
Or in Webber's case to us, they are considered a head case.

In Bosh case he fits none of these. Toronto is sitting at $47 Million next year without him which is not prohibitive. The danger of him leaving $20 Million on the table to sign outright with another team is slim and so Toronto holds all the cards with Bosh.

The most likely scenario is Bosh demands a sign & trade which would give him max money and allow him to play in South Beach. Once that happens every team will be bidding for Bosh and our offer of Hawes + Martin will not be in the ball park.

The more likely path to success for us is for Petrie to score in the draft again, his strength, then for us to chase the next big thing.

 

[Bricklayer]

The most likely scenario is Bosh demands a sign & trade which would give him max money and allow him to play in South Beach. Once that happens every team will be bidding for Bosh and our offer of Hawes + Martin will not be in the ball park.

Now see that is where people begin to get a little...out there.

Go aroudn the league and start constructing deals substantially in excess of that that teams would actually be willing to give up. No team is going to swap out a current All Star big to get Bosh as their new All Star big. That just never happens. You get one or two good but not great players,. maybe a storng draft pick. Maybe a kid with potential. That's what it was for Ray Allen, KG, Shaq etc. That's what it always is. You slap down a Kevin/Hawes package, with sweetners, you are right there.

 

[Kingster]

Uh, really going out on a limb there eh?

You could replay the upcoming 10 seasons a million times and have Jason turn into a superstar in exactly zero of them. Its just ridiculous to even ponder.

Now whether he could one day become an 18-10 guy, at least there we can talk. However it should be noted that 18-10 guys typically have to do it in the face of teams gearing their defense toward them, and every team that has geared their defense toward Jason shuts him down. He gives many more indicators of good suport player who takes advanatge of teams that do not pay attention to him than star level player going right into the teeth of a set defense and beating it.

Until Bosh gives an inkling of an indication that he can play defense, it's ridiculous to talk about trading for him.

 

[Bricklayer]

Until Bosh gives an inkling of an indication that he can play defense, it's ridiculous to talk about trading for him.

Hardly. Its ridiculous to NOT talk about trading for a frontcourt player of that magnitude.

Basically your option is to trade for nobody of significance up front. becuase here's the deal. Best young PFs in the game? Bosh -- no defense. Jefferson -- no defense. Stoudemire -- no defense (or rebounding). Boozer -- no defense.

This mythical 20-10 plays great defense guy you are looking for comes along once every 10 years and is named Tim Duncan or Dwight Howard. And he's old and unavailable. In fact ANY player who can do all those things is going to be unavailble. So you are left with the options to either take the flawed guy and hope that his desire to win will help him pick it up in a new environment -- same way it did with Webb -- or to just fold, go home, and suck your thumb. I quit sucking my thumb a long time ago. Get Bosh and then turn your full attention to picking up a defensive roleplayer up front to complete things.