and with the #1 pick in the 2009 NBA draft the Kings select...

bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#151
#151
Henkel said:
Understandable and you certainly have history on your side. McCants is a good example of a undersized sg who's overall game was suppose to make up for his lack of size.

I'm confident that Harden is going to be a very effective offensive player because of his midrange game and his overall offensive intelligence, which is something players like Douby and McCants lack. How he finishes around the basket at the next level is certainly a question.

If Harden measures out to be a legit 6'4 - 6'5 he would only be about an inch shorter then Roy who is only a little over 6'5 without shoes and was listed at 6'5 throughout his college career. I compared him to Roy because neither posseses great physical abilities, instead they use a combination of intelligence and ball handling to get where they need to be on the offensive end. Both have solid jump shots and don't settle for bad shots.

Harden certainly has some red flags, but he seems to be improving from a very solid freshman year. If he puts up 20+ points and around 5 rebounds and 5 assists in a good conference i think he deserves some consideration at the top of the draft.
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Roy is a great comparison. Both are fundamentaly sound. Both are good shooters. Although I think Roy can shoot without being set a little bit better than Harden at this point. What I love about both of them, is that they don't make stupid mistakes. They don't force things.

Harden is just fun to watch from the prespective of a fan who likes intelligent basketball. He won't make a lot of highlight reels, but he'll help you win a lot of games.
 
Vlade4GM

Vlade4GM

All-Star
#152
#152
nbrans said:
He doesn't have Roy's size, which is important. Any time you have someone who is undersized at a position he has to really be spectacular at something in order to be more than an average player. As good as Harden is now, I don't see him being spectacular in the NBA. There's a long list of undersized 2s, from Rashad McCants to our own Quincy Douby, who were great scorers in college but whose game didn't translate to the NBA because they just weren't special enough to overcome the height problem. Harden might be solid, but I don't think he'll justify a high pick.
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Emphasis on height is overrated. Strength, quickness, length,, and reach are for more important. That's why I think Eric Gordon will be able to succeed in this league as a 2, on both sides of the court because he's quick, strong, and long. Now, I'm not saying Harden aces all these categories, but I wouldn't rule him out just because he's listed 6'4 or whatever.
 
nbrans

nbrans

All-Star
#153
#153
Vlade4GM said:
Emphasis on height is overrated. Strength, quickness, length,, and reach are for more important. That's why I think Eric Gordon will be able to succeed in this league as a 2, on both sides of the court because he's quick, strong, and long. Now, I'm not saying Harden aces all these categories, but I wouldn't rule him out just because he's listed 6'4 or whatever.
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Gordon is still going to be a defensive liability because people can shoot over him. The list of undersized 2s who were very good defenders in the recent history of the NBA basically begins and ends with Joe Dumars, and that was an era that allowed handchecking, giving strong small guys an advantage they no longer enjoy.

Height matters at every position. Sure, there are guys who can overcome a lack of height to be effective, but they have to be really extraordinary at something in order to make it.
 
Vlade4GM

Vlade4GM

All-Star
#154
#154
nbrans said:
Gordon is still going to be a defensive liability because people can shoot over him. The list of undersized 2s who were very good defenders in the recent history of the NBA basically begins and ends with Joe Dumars, and that was an era that allowed handchecking, giving strong small guys an advantage they no longer enjoy.

Height matters at every position. Sure, there are guys who can overcome a lack of height to be effective, but they have to be really extraordinary at something in order to make it.
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There's a world in between defensive liability and very good. Gordon won't be a stopper, but he can be an average-solid defender. True he doesn't have much of a reach, but he's still got roughly the same reach as Mayo does. It's not as much of a liability as it's made out to be. It's part of the equation, but it neither makes or breaks anyone alone; there are other things to take into account.
 
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BawLa

BawLa

Starter
#155
#155
As of right now I'd pick Thabeet with the first pick, go figure. Then with the late pick I'd take a PG like Lawson/Collison/Jerrells, basically whichever PG has the most playmaking ability/potential at that pick. Maybe we could even package up the late 1st rounder and early 2nd rounder and move up in the 1st round if it's worth it. As long as we get a playmaking PG.
 
LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#158
#158
Well, it's now December, and I'll go on record predicting that the Kings, picking somewhere between 4-7, select Brandon Jennings, with Griffin and Rubio (the two easiest bets from my POV) already long gone.
 
=LarryLegend=

=LarryLegend=

Starter
#159
#159
Well if its between Brandon Jennings and Jrue Holiday.......I go Jrue...he is 6'3"-6'4" vs brandon being 6'-6'1".


But I still think Mills would be a Tony Parker type.


We have had crappy lotto luck last couple years.....our luck we will start winning when other teams tank...and we will get 10-14
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#162
#162
Vlade4GM said:
Emphasis on height is overrated.
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:confused: You have to be a real special player to make it as a major 6'3"/6'4" OG. Especially to have any impact at all. You go around the league and 6'5" is about the minimum for anybody but Wade (who I think is 6'4 1/2"). Not absolutely dispositive of course -- there are always a few around -- but a red flag.

Just off the top of my head:

LAC - Gordon 6'4"
LAL - Kobe 6'6"
GSW - Crawford 6'5"/Maggette 6'7"
SAC - Martin 6'7"
POR - Roy 6'6"
PHX - Bell 6'5"
UTH - Brewer 6'7"
DEN - Smith 6'6" (listed -- think he's more like 6'5")
SAN - Ginobili 6'6"
DAL - ? Call it Terry 6'3" (combo guard)
HOU - TMac 6'8"
NOH - call it MoPete 6'7"
MEM - Mayo 6'4"
MIN - Miller 6'8"
OKC - Durant 6'9"

I'm not going to bother with the East as the story is the same. And those handful of 6'4" type players almost all have to be able to swing to the point to justify themselves and avoid problem matchups.
 
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nbrans

nbrans

All-Star
#163
#163
By the way, for all you draft junkies out there, USC/Oklahoma at 4:00 today on ESPN2. Griffin vs. DeRozan. I already have the DVR fired up and ready to go.
 
Aenadin

Aenadin

Starter
#165
#165
whats BLake Griffins Natural position? possible scenario if we do get top pick.. can he be swung to the SF position? does he have the quickness?
 
nbrans

nbrans

All-Star
#167
#167
Blake Griffin -- he's definitely got hops, but doesn't really have great shotblocking instincts (he got a gimme against USC that looked good but wasn't particularly challenging), and in fact he hardly tries at all on defense. I think the biggest point of concern is that he' s not very tall -- he's noticeably shorter than Taj Gibson who is 6'9" I'd put him at 6'8", but wherever he measures out is raelly going to impact what he can do in the NBA, especially on the defensive end, where's he's already a liability. His rebounding numbers are gaudy, but I think that has more to do with the fact that he's bigger and more athletic than most of the guys he's been going against rather than a result of him having particularly special rebounding abilities.

Offensively he has an incredibly deadly step-away jumper that is virtually unblockable and could be a go-to NBA move for years. His other go-to move is to run at the far side of the hoop for a one-handed reverse jam, which is not going to work so well in the NBA. Pounds the ball a bit and looks a tad raw in the post, but between those hops and the jumper he'd be really tough to guard in the NBA. USC was throwing a slew of junk defenses at him, and he did a decent job passing out.

He also looks like the Geico caveman.

Ultimately, I guess I can see why he's slotted at #1 in a weak draft, but I don't think he's a sure-thing by any stretch of the imagination.

DeRozen -- forget it. Not in this draft. He only looks slightly-better-than-average athletically (he's got some hops but doesn't seem particularly quick) and his offense is extremely raw. Don't see what the hype is about.

Taj Gibson -- I like him as a late 1st round or 2nd round pick. He's versatile, athletic, long and has a solid jump shot. He kind of reminds me of a smarter Drew Gooden. I'd strongly consider him if he's around for the Houston pick.

Also keep an eye on Dwight Lewis and Daniel Hackett - Lewis is a bit like another USC product, Nick Young, and he's a versatile scorer and tough-nosed defender. If he gets some more consistency from the 3 point line he could work his way into the draft. Hackett is pretty athletic, a good passer, and and a solid 6'5" PG. Not sure if he's quick enough to be an NBA PG though.

As far as our pick goes.... I'm still in Team Gambit. Thabeet or bust!!
 
nbrans

nbrans

All-Star
#168
#168
Collison is worth a top 10 pick this year. The guy is just solid. Shooting 60% from the field, 94% from the line, 70% from 3.

Also, this may be the only time I agree with Jay Bilas, but I just don't see Jrue Holiday coming out this year. Raw raw raw raw raw. He's not even ready to run a college team let alone an NBA team.
 
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LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#169
#169
Griffin would be tough to pass up were we somehow to win the lottery or otherwise be in a position to get him. Apparently the only way to stop him is with a cheap shot below the belt.
 
Bballkingsrock

Bballkingsrock

All-Star
#172
#172
All I gotta say is Thabeet looks special. He reminds of me a Dikembe Mutumbo in his PRIME. 21 points and 18 boards with a close win ove Buffalo. His whole team had like 68 so not bad for a center. I like him and the Kings should pick this guy up in the draft.
 
nbrans

nbrans

All-Star
#173
#173
I've always always always been a Thabeet fan. I think he's going to be better in the NBA than he is in college. Just wait until he's not going up against 6'8" college "centers."
 
F

fnordius

All-Star
#174
#174
nbrans said:
Sadly getting punched in the nards isn't a very solid barometer for one's NBA success.
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Pity. It would be wonderful if we could ensure the success of our players through use of such a simple technique.

My impression of this draft is that Rubio and Griffin are the big prizes, and after that it mostly ranges from risky to uninspiring. Sucks that our chances of lucking into a top 2 pick aren't looking so good.

I hope we get a true PG or a big, because I see those as being our needs (still... it's been a while). If we aren't in the top 4 or so, that could mean The Gambit. And I guess I could live with that. Worst case, he's a shorter and more athletic Manute Bol, and we could use one. SOMEone has to play defense.
 
nbrans

nbrans

All-Star
#175
#175
I think The Gambit is going to end up going top 3. He's as close to a sure thing as exists this draft. Griffin might not be tall enough, Rubio's game might not translate. Thabeet.... barring an injury you know you're getting an athletic 7'3" freak.
 
Vlade4GM

Vlade4GM

All-Star
#176
#176
Bricklayer said:
:confused: You have to be a real special player to make it as a major 6'3"/6'4" OG. Especially to have any impact at all. You go around the league and 6'5" is about the minimum for anybody but Wade (who I think is 6'4 1/2"). Not absolutely dispositive of course -- there are always a few around -- but a red flag.

Just off the top of my head:

LAC - Gordon 6'4"
LAL - Kobe 6'6"
GSW - Crawford 6'5"/Maggette 6'7"
SAC - Martin 6'7"
POR - Roy 6'6"
PHX - Bell 6'5"
UTH - Brewer 6'7"
DEN - Smith 6'6" (listed -- think he's more like 6'5")
SAN - Ginobili 6'6"
DAL - ? Call it Terry 6'3" (combo guard)
HOU - TMac 6'8"
NOH - call it MoPete 6'7"
MEM - Mayo 6'4"
MIN - Miller 6'8"
OKC - Durant 6'9"

I'm not going to bother with the East as the story is the same. And those handful of 6'4" type players almost all have to be able to swing to the point to justify themselves and avoid problem matchups.
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I'm saying height is really not the measuring stick that should be emphasized. Certainly height is correlated with things like length and reach, but you don't block shots or defend positions with your head, ultimately it's your length and shoulder height that matters most, as far as size goes. If I had to choose between only knowing the standing reach of a player or their height, I'd choose standing reach.
 
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Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#177
#177
The only problem with Thabeet's performance thus far is that if he keeps it up my Gambit goes from calculated risk to obvious move that every team in the lottery is going to be looking at. When I initially suggested it, I thought he would be a good risk to take in the 5-8 range if that's where we ended up. But with the way he is playing, he could very well end up like Deke and go in the Top 3 or 4, meaning we would either have to be lucky or continue our same level of awfulness right through the season. Would be a thing of beauty though if he panned out -- Hawes/Thompson/Thabeet could be our frontcourt rotation for a long time. Or at least until whichever one of them was the backup got it into his head he could be a starter elsewhere.
 
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H

HighFlyingMonkey

Starter
#178
#178
Bricklayer said:
The only problem with Thabeet's performance thus far is that if he keeps it up my Gambit goes from calculated risk to obvious move that every team in the lottery is going to be looking at. When I initially suggested it, I thought he would be a good risk to take in the 5-8 range if that's where we ended up. But with the way he is playing, he could very well end up like Deke and go in the Top 3 or 4, meaning we would either have to be lucky or continue our same level of awfulness right through the season. Would be a thing of beauty though if he panned out -- Hawes/Thompson/Thabeet could be our frontcourt rotation for a long time. Or at least until whichever one of them was the backup got it into his head he could be a starter elsewhere.
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Bricklayer, meet Bird Rights. Bird Rights, Bricklayer :D

Not sold on anyone in this draft (besides Harden, but we have SG covered nicely) so Im on the Gambit bandwagon for now with a careful eye on Jennings over in Italy.
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#180
#180
nbrans said:
Collison is worth a top 10 pick this year. The guy is just solid. Shooting 60% from the field, 94% from the line, 70% from 3.

Also, this may be the only time I agree with Jay Bilas, but I just don't see Jrue Holiday coming out this year. Raw raw raw raw raw. He's not even ready to run a college team let alone an NBA team.
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As a Bruin, I wish I could like Collison, but I just can't. I don't think his game translates to the NBA. He plays much slower than his 4.2 speed would suggest. He needs to pound the ball a LOT in order to do his work on the floor. I'm not sold that he's real quick coming off screens either. From what I saw last night, I agree with you on Jrue. He could overpower guards in high school, but he's not going be doing that in the NBA. He needs more seasoning.
 
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