Who will be the leader on this team?

[NME]

See, this is just pure idiocy. the paragraph. not the poster. i know that there are intangibles. hustle points, charges, diving for loose balls, things that can change the outcome of a game that do not show up on the stat sheet. however, this "logic" or statement doesnt belong in a discussion. it belongs nowhere.

You're the one who turned this thread with your absurd reduction of Martin's game.

kevin martin is not a 3 point shooter. and because he can make 8 freethrows in a game doesnt make him an offensive threat. you can powder it up and deodorize it all you like but you cant cover the fact that his game stinks compared to someone like tmac or wade.

Okay, now making threes doesn't make you three-point shooter, and defenses are randomly sending a player to the line at one of the highest rates in the league when he is no offensive threat.

NME, you're steering away from the topic. in all four of your posts you discussed freethrows. all 4!! you have no other argument.martin is not a leader. he doesnt have the verbal qualities and he doesnt have the skill qualities. give it up

WHAT? I made one post that included getting to the line as one part of it, and then I made a second follow-up post because YOU requested more detail.

martin is not a leader. he doesnt have the verbal qualities and he doesnt have the skill qualities. give it up

Martin has stated that he intends to lead this year and will be vocal. I don't know whether it will become a reality; we'll have to see. I don't agree with your criteria that a player can't be possibly a leader unless he has a game on par with Kobe.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

See, this is just pure idiocy. the paragraph. not the poster. i know that there are intangibles. hustle points, charges, diving for loose balls, things that can change the outcome of a game that do not show up on the stat sheet. however, this "logic" or statement doesnt belong in a discussion. it belongs nowhere. kevin martin is not a 3 point shooter. and because he can make 8 freethrows in a game doesnt make him an offensive threat. you can powder it up and deodorize it all you like but you cant cover the fact that his game stinks compared to someone like tmac or wade. NME, you're steering away from the topic. in all four of your posts you discussed freethrows. all 4!! you have no other argument.martin is not a leader. he doesnt have the verbal qualities and he doesnt have the skill qualities. give it up

It's really too bad this website only allows four

 

[bajaden]

yall have a dairy queen?

Well,, no, you got me there.

 

[Aenadin]

Leadership isn't about highlight reels. Its about who your're willing to follow into battle. As an ex-marine, I can tell you that I had officers that I would have followed into hell, and others that I wouldn't have followed into a Dairy Queen.

Leaders are generally selfless people who appear to care only about the job to be done and the people who will help them do it. Its someone you know has your back when you need it, and someone that will never throw you under the bus to save themselves. Its someone, most of all, that you respect.

On the old Kings, the leader wasn't Webber, and it wasn't Bibby. It was Vlade. And when Vlade left, the Kings were done. Vlade wasn't the best player on the team, and he certainly wasn't a highlight reel candidate. But he was a steadying influence on the team. I remember sitting behind the Kings bench one night as they came off the floor for a timeout. As they approached the bench Funderburke and J. Will started jawing at one another, and I remember J. Will's face getting as red as a beet. Teammates had to jump between them to prevent possible blows being thrown. The next thing I remember was Vlade having J. Will's head under one arm and Funderburke's head under the other and talking to them. I don't know what he said, but it worked. They both smiled at the end of it and played the rest of the game well.

My point is, that everyone else on the team at that time just sat and watched. Only Vlade did anything to resolve the situation. So Martin, or whoever it is that tries to pick up the mantle of leadership, doesn't have to be Kobe or Jordan etc. They just have to be leaders, and they're teammates will know if they are or not.

Pretty much Vlade was the heart and soul of that kings franchise if he stayed a few more years who knows how much the young ones could have learned

leadership doesnt always require you to be the best athlete and the media guy, hell the 07 season Corliss was the leader... last year it was bibby then it was up for grabs when he was traded.. you dont have to score 30ppg and be in the highlight reel every night to be the leader it all has to do with locker room presence too...i dont care who claims to be the leader of the team as long as THEY PROVE they can be the leader...

any body can claim I WILL LEAD.....the question is to where?

 

[bajaden]

OK, Tyrant, before you go putting your foot in your mouth any further, lets look at some stat facts:

Martin-- FGA-914 FGP-.456 3PA-266 3PP-.402

Artest-- FGA-962 FGP-.452 3PA-221 3PP-.380

Wade -- FGA-937 FGP-.469 3PA-77 3PP-.286

T.Mac-- FGA-1,307 FGP-.419 3PA-294 3PP-.293

Redd -- FGA-1,243 FGP-.442 3PA-358 3PP-.363

Bibby--Lifetime stats-FGP-.439 3PP-.371


All the stats on this list are last years stats except Bibby's who didn't really play enough to have them included. As you can see, Martin's overall shooting percentage and his 3 pt percentages are all higher than anyone else on the list, except for Wade's FGP, which is higher because he doesn't take many 3 pt shots. When you look at Wade's 3 pt percentages you can see why. He's not a very good 3 pt shooter

I'm not sure who you call a 3 pt shooter, but Michael Redd is reccognized as one of the best 3 pt shooters in the league. The percentage of 3 pt shots that Martin takes out of his total shots is almost the same as Redd's. Therefore percentage wise he takes as many shots as Redd and is a better 3 pt shooter.

 

[CruzDude]

Y'all notice that when the reference was made a page or so back to Tyrant about olympic coaches singing the praises of Kevin and his overall game, it was ignored? Hmmm Anyway he was specifically mentioned as the type of player they want to look at and follow when 2012 and 2016 olympics come around. A team player. That's why the USA got beat for 4-6 years by the likes of Greece, Argentina and Lithuania. Those guys played great team ball without any big stars whereas the USA had a big bunch of stars and darn few "team" players. Spurs and Celts are perfect examples of team play vs. superstar individual play.

 

[Telemachus]

kevin martin is not a 3 point shooter.

How do you figure? He averaged 4.4 3pt shots a game and made 1.75 a game while shooting 40%. If he isn't a 3pt shooter, then who is?

and because he can make 8 freethrows in a game doesnt make him an offensive threat.

No it doesn't. It is evidence that he IS an offensive threat. You don't get the the FT line that many times a game unless you are an offensive threat. And that means as more than just an outside shooter.

you can powder it up and deodorize it all you like but you cant cover the fact that his game stinks compared to someone like tmac or wade. NME, you're steering away from the topic. in all four of your posts you discussed freethrows. all 4!! you have no other argument.martin is not a leader. he doesnt have the verbal qualities and he doesnt have the skill qualities. give it up

You are the one who brought up Martin's game as reason as to why he is or isn't a leader (namely, his game being one dimensional). The rest has been said to refute that statement.

I personally don't think Martin will be the leader on the Kings based on what I have seen of his personality (not his game). But disagree that his game is one dimensional. He scores outside in a variety of ways, and scores inside in a variety of ways as well. He is not a bad rebounder from the SG position either. His biggest weakness is defense.

 

[fnordius]

Leaders are generally selfless people who appear to care only about the job to be done and the people who will help them do it. Its someone you know has your back when you need it, and someone that will never throw you under the bus to save themselves. Its someone, most of all, that you respect.

On the old Kings, the leader wasn't Webber, and it wasn't Bibby. It was Vlade. And when Vlade left, the Kings were done. Vlade wasn't the best player on the team, and he certainly wasn't a highlight reel candidate. But he was a steadying influence on the team. I remember sitting behind the Kings bench one night as they came off the floor for a timeout. As they approached the bench Funderburke and J. Will started jawing at one another, and I remember J. Will's face getting as red as a beet. Teammates had to jump between them to prevent possible blows being thrown. The next thing I remember was Vlade having J. Will's head under one arm and Funderburke's head under the other and talking to them. I don't know what he said, but it worked. They both smiled at the end of it and played the rest of the game well.

Quoted for truth, because in this particular area, neither stats or highlights mean a thing. Vlade was wonderful, Corliss was decent. Since then, nobody has really fit. RonRon's only been a leader of the Apocalypse Now variety. Kevin might get there one day, but I don't think he can lead much more than rookies yet, it'd take a real gift (not to mention a lot of assertiveness) to lead more experienced players. Mikki might not be too far off, but he's so... Mikki.

We may not have any real leader this year, beyond the coaches. It wouldn't be the first time, and I don't think it'd be catastrophic were that the case.

 

[AriesMar27]

in tyrants defense, martin is 29th in 3pt% and not only that but he doesnt get double and triple teamed whenever he touches the ball.... how many times can you think of that martin nailed a 3 at the buzzer with a man or 2 in his face? probably not that many... how many times have you seen him nail a 3 after coming off of a screen or 2? several.... hell mike dunleavey has a better fg% and 3pt% than martin... kevin only has him beat in ft% and ppg... and not by much...


i love martin but lets not get ahead of ourselves when comparing his stats to superstars who carry their teams to actual wins... bibby shoots 37% from 3 point range and i wouldnt even second guess myself if i had to choose who should shoot the last shot of a game between him and martin. id choose all of them except wade and artest out of the players that bajaden listed....

 

[VF21]

OK, Tyrant, before you go putting your foot in your mouth any further...

I think that ship sailed about a page ago...

 

[bajaden]

in tyrants defense, martin is 29th in 3pt% and not only that but he doesnt get double and triple teamed whenever he touches the ball.... how many times can you think of that martin nailed a 3 at the buzzer with a man or 2 in his face? probably not that many... how many times have you seen him nail a 3 after coming off of a screen or 2? several.... hell mike dunleavey has a better fg% and 3pt% than martin... kevin only has him beat in ft% and ppg... and not by much...


i love martin but lets not get ahead of ourselves when comparing his stats to superstars who carry their teams to actual wins... bibby shoots 37% from 3 point range and i wouldnt even second guess myself if i had to choose who should shoot the last shot of a game between him and martin. id choose all of them except wade and artest out of the players that bajaden listed....

First of all, none of us brought up these players. Tyrant did. And so I felt it necessary to do the comparison. Wade and T Mac are thought of by many, to be superstars, and the reason they are is not because of their shooting percentage, but because of all the intangables that they bring to the game. But thats another story for another time.

As far as Bibby is concerned, your remembering a Bibby in his prime when the lights were at there brightest, and he was running on all cylinders. That Bibby doesn't exist anymore. The light is still burning, but its a lot dimmer than it was, and soon it will go out. Martin hasn't even reached his prime yet, so the comparison isn't fair at this point. It is possible, when its all said and done, that his light will shine brighter. We will see.

 

[Bricklayer]

Kevin Martin <<< Dwayne Wade or TMac or anybody else who actually makes his teammates better, draws constant doubleteams, and basically runs the offense for his particular team.

That is always going to make it hard for him to be a true leader on the floor. Or at least THE true leader. But it in no way precludes him from being A leader, or at least more of one than he has been. In the last year or so there have been multiple indications of a burgeoing ego with Kevin, which might not make him any more likable, but which could be useful in him developing as a leader. Given what we've seen of him to this point? No way. Kevin couldn't lead somebody into an AM/PM. But I am not willing to 100% write off the possibility that an emerging sense of self-importance, coupled with a young squad around him, could lead him to begin to take on that mantle. And so long as he can accept it if one day we acquire a true superstar ahead of him in the pecking order, our best young player developing into a leader of any sort would be a good thing.

P.S. And "being a team player" is a very desirable trait...if you're not good enough to be more. Its both a compliment and an insult.

 

[tyrant]

in tyrants defense, martin is 29th in 3pt% and not only that but he doesnt get double and triple teamed whenever he touches the ball.... how many times can you think of that martin nailed a 3 at the buzzer with a man or 2 in his face? probably not that many... how many times have you seen him nail a 3 after coming off of a screen or 2? several.... hell mike dunleavey has a better fg% and 3pt% than martin... kevin only has him beat in ft% and ppg... and not by much...


i love martin but lets not get ahead of ourselves when comparing his stats to superstars who carry their teams to actual wins... bibby shoots 37% from 3 point range and i wouldnt even second guess myself if i had to choose who should shoot the last shot of a game between him and martin. id choose all of them except wade and artest out of the players that bajaden listed....

bingo, and whats with all the rebuttal? after reading these statements you cant disagree. bajaden, i see what you're trying to say, but the fact is that bibby is only 30. just turned 30. there will be a day when we will see mike of 2002-on. his 3 point % may be a little lower, but obviously because he takes more. example, martin took 266 3's last year. he made 107. in '07 bibby made 288. mike made more 3 pointers than kevin took. thats a 3 point shooter. people.

Bricklayer:
Kevin Martin <<< Dwayne Wade or TMac or anybody else who actually makes his teammates better, draws constant doubleteams, and basically runs the offense for his particular team.

That is always going to make it hard for him to be a true leader on the floor. Or at least THE true leader. But it in no way precludes him from being A leader

bingo again, i agree with everything here except for the last sentence. if martin cant be the type of leader we need him to be we'll never win a ring with him as our best player. that IS still the goal here in sacramento isnt it?

 

[Andre87]

he's not a great defender, he cant create his own shot, 95% of his highlights are 2 handed dunks. the guy has offense but can only score in 2 ways. he doesnt demand double teams, ETC, ETC, ETC all day long

are you kidding me?!

 

[Spike]

in tyrants defense, martin is 29th in 3pt% and not only that but he doesnt get double and triple teamed whenever he touches the ball.... how many times can you think of that martin nailed a 3 at the buzzer with a man or 2 in his face? probably not that many... how many times have you seen him nail a 3 after coming off of a screen or 2? several.... hell mike dunleavey has a better fg% and 3pt% than martin... kevin only has him beat in ft% and ppg... and not by much...


i love martin but lets not get ahead of ourselves when comparing his stats to superstars who carry their teams to actual wins... bibby shoots 37% from 3 point range and i wouldnt even second guess myself if i had to choose who should shoot the last shot of a game between him and martin. id choose all of them except wade and artest out of the players that bajaden listed....

Now you're just playing around with the stats. Kevin is 6th in scoring compared to Dunleavy's 36th. Half of the people above Kevin (OK 17) in 3 pt % shooting have taken less than Kevin. Who knows how the law of averages would work out with some of these players. Kapono, who is first, has taken the least amount of shots, yet many hail him as a great 3pt threat.

Let's think back to close game situations. Where did the ball end up? Ron. Where was is supposed to go? Probably somewhere else. In case you forgot, the Kings weren't a very good team last year, so there wasn't much of an opportunity for game winning heroics. He had a buzzer beater vs. Seattle this past year, methinks. I do remember a pretty nice layup to beat the Spurs...

But as pointed out earlier, and in other threads, Garcia, Beno all have delivered late game heroics. I'm not concerned that a leader will not arise from this young group, and I'm excited to see who it will be.

Sometimes a situation forces a leader to arise. It doesn't have to always show, but when it's needed, it'll be there. Because of the youth of this team, I'm fairly confident it will.

 

[tyrant]

Now you're just playing around with the stats. Kevin is 6th in scoring compared to Dunleavy's 36th. Half of the people above Kevin (OK 17) in 3 pt % shooting have taken less than Kevin. Who knows how the law of averages would work out with some of these players. Kapono, who is first, has taken the least amount of shots, yet many hail him as a great 3pt threat.

Let's think back to close game situations. Where did the ball end up? Ron. Where was is supposed to go? Probably somewhere else. In case you forgot, the Kings weren't a very good team last year, so there wasn't much of an opportunity for game winning heroics. He had a buzzer beater vs. Seattle this past year, methinks. I do remember a pretty nice layup to beat the Spurs...

But as pointed out earlier, and in other threads, Garcia, Beno all have delivered late game heroics. I'm not concerned that a leader will not arise from this young group, and I'm excited to see who it will be.

Sometimes a situation forces a leader to arise. It doesn't have to always show, but when it's needed, it'll be there. Because of the youth of this team, I'm fairly confident it will.

actually the kings had at least 13 games where they lost by 4 or less points. (espn.com). if thats not down to the wire crunch time i dont know what is. so lets say we have a true go to guy. i wont give them all 13 (for the sake of arguing), but lets at least give them 8. lets say they win 8 of those 13 games they lost. the record would be 46-36 as opposed to 38-44

 

[Spike]

actually the kings had at least 13 games where they lost by 4 or less points. (espn.com). if thats not down to the wire crunch time i dont know what is. so lets say we have a true go to guy. i wont give them all 13 (for the sake of arguing), but lets at least give them 8. lets say they win 8 of those 13 games they lost. the record would be 46-36 as opposed to 38-44

So that leaves 31 games where they weren't down to the wire. You're talking about 3 games a month. Either way, 8 of 13 is fairly generous, as you're talking about more than 60% of the past "close-game" losses would be wins. There are only about 5 players in the league that I think would make that kind of change.

What's your argument, that we'd of had less losses with a go-to guy? That's not earth-shattering. Ron wanted to be the guy, but we all knew that was a bad idea.

My premise is that we cannot assume Martin won't be the guy, given that he'll be the one with the opportunity to carry this team with Artest (hopefully) gone. We also cannot assume that someone like Garcia or Udrih won't step up, given the presumptive fact that Sir Artest the Sinkhole will be moving on to greener pastures. We also cannot discount veteran leadership from Miller and SAR.

 

[Bricklayer]

bingo again, i agree with everything here except for the last sentence. if martin cant be the type of leader we need him to be we'll never win a ring with him as our best player. that IS still the goal here in sacramento isnt it?

And what does all that have to do with anything?

Obviously we cannot win anything with him as our best player. Same could be said of 95% of the guys in the league. Given that we however do not have that player who can be the #1 guy, what is the point in spending 5 pages putting down the best we currently have for at least trying to step up and fill the void until we find that #1?

 

[ninjabiscuit]

Two words:

Ignore List

 

[bajaden]

I'm a little confused by all of this. I thought this was about leadership, and somehow it has morphed into how good a player or how good a 3pt shooter Martin is. Neither of these things has anything to do with leadership, and, if you think so, you know nothing about leadership.

Leadership is about whether anyone will follow you, and thats not decided by you, but, by those that follow. You can stand up all day and shout follow me, but if you don't have the respect of your peers, its not going to work.

Why do soldiers follow an officer into battle. Because on a 50 mile hike, he's out front walking with you instead of riding in a jeep. Because he wants to win the battle, but not at the expense of your life if he can help it. Because when you go into battle, he's at the front leading the way. Because of all those things, you respect him. You might not always like him. He may be a tough SOB that irrirates the hell out of you. But you trust him. It has nothing to do with his being the best shot or the fastest runner.

Now I know thats an extreme analogy. But the concept is the same. If your a player that can do the job asked of you on the court and do it well, perhaps great. If your a player thats there 2 hours before the game working out and practicing. If you afford yourself well off the court. No drugs or too much booze. You will build a reputation that other players will take note of. So, when said player walks over to a rookie, and tells him he needs to get his act together and take things more seriously, the rookie will probably listen to him. Thats the beginning of leadership.

 

[tyrant]

how good martin is or can be will determine how far he can take this team. the first 4 letters of leadership is lead. no one will follow anyone that they feel would lead them into a land of hopeless matter. a leader has your respect because of his heart and his credentials. no general is appointed because he's a good guy or he follows his heart (or in martins case because he can draw some fouls). a general has medals for a reason. bajaden, i think you're a vet if im not mistaken. so we each have our differences on what a leader is. and i can respect that.

but we do have the same views. some of them at least. we both know that a leader doesnt try to escape accountability. a leader sets the example. a leader works hard.

 

[AriesMar27]

martin has the skills to be a leader but he doesnt have what it takes mentally... ive never seen any type of killer instinct in him.... it took kobe 12 years and another all star (pau gasol) to become the leader of the lakers and not just their best scorer....

 

[tyrant]

martin has the skills to be a leader but he doesnt have what it takes mentally... ive never seen any type of killer instinct in him.... it took kobe 12 years and another all star (pau gasol) to become the leader of the lakers and not just their best scorer....

1st, has kobe been in the league for 12 years??? 2nd, kobe was winning championships 8 years ago. 2000. he immediately became one of the greatest of all time. lets not compare. bottom line is that no one can give you a reason why martin is a good player without mentioning freethrows and "3point %"

 

[Spike]

No one can say he isn't without mentioning the same. I'm sorry, but nobody has been able to convince me that Martin won't (or can't) be a leader because of a lack of "a sick crossover," or having hit a 3 with the entire opposing team and their towel boy hanging on his limbs. Would you say Mr. "Right place at the right time" Horry is more of a leader?
For us to judge his mental intensity based on such a small sample set is asinine. He's had to defer to Bonzi, Bibby, and Artest, while making his way into the league. He's shown improvements every year as a player in nearly every department. He wasn't the 5th pick in the draft, so he didn't have to come in as the leader. We'll just have to see. He says he wants it. I don't care about what Peja and Bibby said in the past. We'll find out come fall.

 

[gunks]

1st, has kobe been in the league for 12 years??? 2nd, kobe was winning championships 8 years ago. 2000. he immediately became one of the greatest of all time. lets not compare. bottom line is that no one can give you a reason why martin is a good player without mentioning freethrows and "3point %"

Uhh....Shaq? Hoagie Bryant wouldnt have won anything without the Big ReRe.

 

[tyrant]

No one can say he isn't without mentioning the same. I'm sorry, but nobody has been able to convince me that Martin won't (or can't) be a leader because of a lack of "a sick crossover," or having hit a 3 with the entire opposing team and their towel boy hanging on his limbs. Would you say Mr. "Right place at the right time" Horry is more of a leader?
For us to judge his mental intensity based on such a small sample set is asinine. He's had to defer to Artest, and to Bibby while making his way into the league. He's shown improvements every year as a player in nearly every department. He wasn't the 5th pick in the draft, so he didn't have to come in as the leader. We'll just have to see. He says he wants it. I don't care about what Peja and Bibby said in the past. We'll find out come fall.

ok, i see common sense or just plain logic wont help you. so, here are the facts. there is no other side of the coin. just hard/indisputable facts. now, kevin martin's career average

steals=.9 per game
blocks=.1 a game (are you kidding me)
rebounds. 3.6 a game
martins defense is not very good. at all!!

career 3 point shooting=.380. this is career. this previous season it was .402. career is more important. so he's technically not even close to .500

now, lets look at someone like uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, kobe!!

steals=1.5
blocks=.5
rebounds=5.2 a game

on offense, martin averages 1.6 assists per game. kobe averages over 4 a game. again, another stat that is tripled by kobe. in 2003 kobe averaged 30 points a game playing next to the most dominating force since jordan. so dont throw in things about how martin had to play robin to artest and bibby.

i am not comparing the two. but these are just some things you had to see. martin is rock bottom in just about every statistical category except for ppg (when you compare him to franchise players). this is the measuring stick ladies and gentleman. whether you like it or not. if you're going to win a ring you have to be better than kobe. or paul, or duncan, you get the point. or you're gona have to have one HECK of a roster like the celtics or 2004 pistons. our GM has alot of work to do

 

[NME]

Tyrant is apparently trapped in some alternate dimension where people are arguing that Kevin Martin should be league MVP.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

ok, i see common sense or just plain logic wont help you. so, here are the facts. there is no other side of the coin. just hard/indisputable facts. now, kevin martin's career average

steals=.9 per game
blocks=.1 a game (are you kidding me)
rebounds. 3.6 a game
martins defense is not very good. at all!!

career 3 point shooting=.380. this is career. this previous season it was .402. career is more important. so he's technically not even close to .500

I assume you mean .400 - but it's hard to argue that Martin's career 3pt% is more important than his current 3pt% when he has improved every year. If his percentage was bouncing around that would be one thing, but steady improvement over 4 years suggests that .400 might be sustainable from here on out.

now, lets look at someone like uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, kobe!!

steals=1.5
blocks=.5
rebounds=5.2 a game

on offense, martin averages 1.6 assists per game. kobe averages over 4 a game. again, another stat that is tripled by kobe. in 2003 kobe averaged 30 points a game playing next to the most dominating force since jordan. so dont throw in things about how martin had to play robin to artest and bibby.

i am not comparing the two.

Hard to imagine what that whole Martin's stats vs. Kobe's stats thing was then, if not a comparison.

but these are just some things you had to see. martin is rock bottom in just about every statistical category except for ppg (when you compare him to franchise players).

You seem to have confused "leader" with "superstar/franchise player". I don't think anybody's trying to claim that Martin is the latter. Martin is a good player who may step up to be a leader. I'm not sure what exactly there is to even argue about here as it's all speculation in the first place, but making the argument that Kobe Bryant is a better player than Kevin Martin in a discussion about leadership is nothing more than sophistry.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Tyrant is apparently trapped in some alternate dimension where people are arguing that Kevin Martin should be league MVP.

Seriously. How did he twist the topic of discussion from whether or not Martin can or will be the leader of the team into whether or not Martin is an All-League player in the first place? Whether Martin will be the leader of the team and whether Martin can lead the Kings to a championship are mutially exclusive; even the ****ty teams have a leader, in some form or fashion.

 

[Spike]

Goodness, thanks for using career stats on a player who's been in the league 4 years, receiving extensive playing time part-way into his second... I've already brought up Kapono's .482 whilst shooting only 180 threes.

Funny thing happens when you sort stats for a SHOOTING GUARD. All of a sudden the blocks don't seem so bad, when the league leader for a SG is 0.7.

By your argument, Kevin is half a steal worse than Kobe, 4/10 a block worse than Kobe, and a little more than 1 rebound worse. BTW, KMarts assists per game were 2.1. In any case, I'm not sure you made your point.
Hollingers PER Stat leaves Kevin Martin between Carmelo Anthony and Allen Iverson. Not bad.

Do better.