Rebuilding

#1
Just a thought cuz i was bored and angry after watching the lakers make the finals. For the last few years, all i've read on this board was that we need to rebuild. Year after year, that there's no point in barely reaching the playoffs, we just need to rebuild. Almost every trade idea where the kings would bring in one all star type player was shot down cuz the player is too old, past their prime, not wanted or the fact that one player wont be the last piece to the puzzle. People would say its no use, we just need to get rid of our "stars" and rebuild with youth. But i can't think of a team that just broke up the team and rebuilt with a bunch of youth and made it anywhere (maybe orlando might be an exception but still they added rashard lewis). A lot of teams that some might have considered elite in the past or present, had a decent team and just added pieces. heat added shaq, suns added nash, celtics added garnett and allen, lakers added gasol etc. Can someone name me a team that totally rebuilt from scratch and made it deep in the playoffs? i know this forum is filled with many members way more knowledgeable than me that can remind me (hopefully not by flaming) why rebuilding was the best way to go.

Also i know adding an allstar type player isnt that easy and thers a lot more to it ie. tradable players, salary cap and so on. I know theres not magic want that Petrie can wave to make it all right. But it just seems other teams make it happen, but we can't :mad:. Sorry for the long rant but i just hate the fact that the Lakers made it to the finals while the kings are going nowhere fast considering a few years ago we were basically in the same situation (7th/8th seeds in the west)
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#2
1) Lakers always had Kobe. They were MILES ahead of us for a #8 seed because they had the most difficult piece to acquire (the superstar) already in the fold, and were only a few lesser moves from being ready to jump back into the fray (the Gasol trade still being a ridiculous gift). Before we can do anything (in a serious manner) we still have to go out and acquire our own superstar, and that is just rough. If we offered our entire team for Kobe, the Lakers would say no. Ditto Cleveland, Orlando, New Orleans etc. That's how rare and valuable those guys are. Worth more than our entire 1-12.

2) Consciously or unconcsciously you are badly mangling/manipulating start dates on your non-rebuilding examples. Phoenix was a terrible team the year before Nash arrived. Being a terrible team had netted them Amare as well. They absolutely rebuilt with youth, Nash was jsut that final free agent acquisition to bring it all together. "The Heat added Shaq". Yes they did. To a team just coming out of a rebuilding phase which had netted them their own superstar in Wade (as well as given them Caron Butler to trade for Shaq). Celtics added garnett and Allen...to a 15 win godawful team, using the #5 pick they earned for their awfulness, as well as an entire stack of young, and therefore valuable, kids they had stacked up int he previous 4 years of drafting. Whether you knew it or not you ran through a whoile listing of teams that all had embraced the rbuilding mantra -- they had all gotten bad, all drafted or hoped to draft young kids who would be major stars, and all are back now. you can thrown New Orleans inot that mix )that's how they got Paul); Utah (that's how they got Deron), Denver (how they got Carmelo), Dallas (once upon a time how they got Dirk), Orlando (how they got Dwight), Cleveland (how they got LeBron) and so on and so on. Each and every one of those teams accepted the necessity of the rebuild, of having an awful year or two, and they ALL had them themself 20-something (or worse) win seasons as they stockpiled the young studs who would lead them through the next decade.

By refusing and refusing and refusing to do so ourselves we are like somebody with a broken leg who refuses to get it set because he is afraid of the pain. All he is doing is prolonging the agony before the necessary procedure is performed anyway, unless he really wants to push it to the extreme, go through months of agony, and end hobbling about on a permanently disabled leg that will never be able to compete with all the guys who juat got theirs fixed.
 
#3
steelevt,

all i can tell you is that petrie is an idiot right now. he has broken this team down to a level lower than dirt. he's made bad move after bad move. starting with the webber trade. and truthfully, we never went into a rebuilding mode. because every player we signed after the "breakup" went from good to bad to just unwatchable.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#4
steelevt,

all i can tell you is that petrie is an idiot right now. he has broken this team down to a level lower than dirt. he's made bad move after bad move. starting with the webber trade. and truthfully, we never went into a rebuilding mode. because every player we signed after the "breakup" went from good to bad to just unwatchable.
I have some koolaid you can drink...
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#6
For the first time, the Maloofs actually used the term "rebuilding" towards the end of the 2007-2008 season. Regardless of what may or may not have gone on before, they - the owners of the team - are now pretty much on the same page as those who wanted the rebuild (nothwithstanding that they wanted it to start earlier).

we're going to rebuild. It's going to take a while. You can beat your chest and wail in dismay that it wasn't done earlier, or you can actually look forward to seeing what changes can/will be made.

It's not going to happen overnight.
 
#7
1) Lakers always had Kobe. They were MILES ahead of us for a #8 seed because they had the most difficult piece to acquire (the superstar) already in the fold, and were only a few lesser moves from being ready to jump back into the fray (the Gasol trade still being a ridiculous gift). Before we can do anything (in a serious manner) we still have to go out and acquire our own superstar, and that is just rough. If we offered our entire team for Kobe, the Lakers would say no. Ditto Cleveland, Orlando, New Orleans etc. That's how rare and valuable those guys are. Worth more than our entire 1-12.

2) Consciously or unconcsciously you are badly mangling/manipulating start dates on your non-rebuilding examples. Phoenix was a terrible team the year before Nash arrived. Being a terrible team had netted them Amare as well. They absolutely rebuilt with youth, Nash was jsut that final free agent acquisition to bring it all together. "The Heat added Shaq". Yes they did. To a team just coming out of a rebuilding phase which had netted them their own superstar in Wade (as well as given them Caron Butler to trade for Shaq). Celtics added garnett and Allen...to a 15 win godawful team, using the #5 pick they earned for their awfulness, as well as an entire stack of young, and therefore valuable, kids they had stacked up int he previous 4 years of drafting. Whether you knew it or not you ran through a whoile listing of teams that all had embraced the rbuilding mantra -- they had all gotten bad, all drafted or hoped to draft young kids who would be major stars, and all are back now. you can thrown New Orleans inot that mix )that's how they got Paul); Utah (that's how they got Deron), Denver (how they got Carmelo), Dallas (once upon a time how they got Dirk), Orlando (how they got Dwight), Cleveland (how they got LeBron) and so on and so on. Each and every one of those teams accepted the necessity of the rebuild, of having an awful year or two, and they ALL had them themself 20-something (or worse) win seasons as they stockpiled the young studs who would lead them through the next decade.

By refusing and refusing and refusing to do so ourselves we are like somebody with a broken leg who refuses to get it set because he is afraid of the pain. All he is doing is prolonging the agony before the necessary procedure is performed anyway, unless he really wants to push it to the extreme, go through months of agony, and end hobbling about on a permanently disabled leg that will never be able to compete with all the guys who juat got theirs fixed.
I don't think that the kings are refusing to rebuild, as you put it. Instead, I think it is more that Petrie realizes that teams are almost never built entirely through a series of high lottery picks. It's a holistic process that involves everything from trades, free agent acquisitions, draft picks, and coaching.

In fact, one need not look any further than the conference finals this year to see that great teams can be built without high draft picks. The Pistons, for instance, only have one player in their starting lineup that was acquired through the draft, Tayshaun Prince (who I believe was a mid first rounder).
Billups, Hamilton, Wallace, and McDeyess were all acquired through trades or free agency. And the one up and coming player on their roster, Rodney Stuckey, was the 15th pick in last years draft.

The Lakers, which you mention heavily in your post, are a team built around Kobe Bryant, who was the 13th pick, and Andrew Bynum, who was the 10th pick. They pulled off a great trade to acquire Pau Gasol and are now poised to compete for championships for at least the next 3-4 years. Likewise, the Celtics were built around Paul Pierce, who was the 10th pick in the draft, and trades for Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.

The Kings own success in the early part of the decade was not the result of a high draft pick turning into a franchise player, but instead was the product of a number of smart trades and free agent signings.

There are, of course, teams like the Spurs, Cavs, and Hornets who have used high draft picks to rebuild their franchises. But at the same time there are teams like the Grizzlies and Clippers who each had long stretches with very high lottery picks, yet each failed to obtain a single "franchise" player to rebuild around.

I think at this point the Kings don't really need to try and lose more games in an attempt to get a high lottery pick. We already have an all-star caliber 2 guard in Kevin Martin (though he is unlikely to be a "franchise" caliber player), and I think Spencer can have even a better career than Brad Miller's. I honestly think that adding a great free agent in 2010 or making a good trade now would give us a playoff caliber roster. I don't think it has to be a long drawn out process either.
 
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#8
For the first time, the Maloofs actually used the term "rebuilding" towards the end of the 2007-2008 season. Regardless of what may or may not have gone on before, they - the owners of the team - are now pretty much on the same page as those who wanted the rebuild (nothwithstanding that they wanted it to start earlier).

we're going to rebuild. It's going to take a while. You can beat your chest and wail in dismay that it wasn't done earlier, or you can actually look forward to seeing what changes can/will be made.

It's not going to happen overnight.
and it wont happen within the next 100 years if someone doesnt make some changes around here asap. in 2004 i dont think the maloofs decided to say "hey lets suck for the next 4 years THEN go into rebuilding mode". the time to rebuild is severely past due. in my opinion.
 
#10
No, but I do think some of their meddling ended up unintentionally contributing to that result.
may be true kennadog. but i just get baffled when i see someone say "it doesnt happen overnight". not a problem with the poster for saying it, but just the term in general. we've sucked for a while now and tho rebuilding doesnt happen over night its not supposed to last almost decade.
 
#11
I think the Bibby trade was an obvious sign that both Petrie and the Maloofs are taking the first step towards rebuilding. I can see us making a deal or 2 on draft night. Theus was the one who decided to play the regulars at the end of the season, not Petrie. But I guess it's up to Petrie to get rid of some our older players, and it has to be done now. Miller, KT, SAR, Artest. These guys have to go. I'll live if it costs us Douby or Salmons to do so.
 
#12
I think the Bibby trade was an obvious sign that both Petrie and the Maloofs are taking the first step towards rebuilding. I can see us making a deal or 2 on draft night. Theus was the one who decided to play the regulars at the end of the season, not Petrie. But I guess it's up to Petrie to get rid of some our older players, and it has to be done now. Miller, KT, SAR, Artest. These guys have to go. I'll live if it costs us Douby or Salmons to do so.
thats why trading webber was such a waste. because his contract wouldve been over and we wouldnt of had corliss, skinner and we wouldnt be stuck with thomas. we would've had cap space to bring some quality here. and webber wasnt a bad player after the injury. im sure we wouldve been better than we were last year if we wouldve kept him till the end of the contract.
 
#13
I don't think that the kings are refusing to rebuild, as you put it.
It appears now (and I hope it's true) that the team is no longer refusing to rebuild. But it's clear that for the last three or four years they've been letting this push to compete drag on and on. The Webber trade, if it had to be done at all, should have been for Mashburn's expiring contract and for one of their prospects at the time (Dalembert, Iggy, or even Korver would have been nice) and/or picks. Instead we got middling veterans on middling deals.

Rebuilding teams don't compound the problem by signing more middling veterans on middling deals (SAR, Salmons, Moore). It's not like they were part of any "plan," SAR and Salmons both effectively fell into Geoff's lap. I understood the final push to try the Artest/Bonzi/SAR post strategy in Rick's final year, but once Bonzi bailed and Rick was fired, that should have been it. No Salmons signing. Trade Artest, Bibby and Miller for youth and picks. Give Kevin and Cisco major minutes and lose a ton of games. Instead of Douby, we draft LaMarcus Aldridge... you never know...

I
In fact, one need not look any further than the conference finals this year to see that great teams can be built without high draft picks. The Pistons, for instance, only have one player in their starting lineup that was acquired through the draft, Tayshaun Prince (who I believe was a mid first rounder).
Billups, Hamilton, Wallace, and McDeyess were all acquired through trades or free agency. And the one up and coming player on their roster, Rodney Stuckey, was the 15th pick in last years draft.

The Lakers, which you mention heavily in your post, are a team built around Kobe Bryant, who was the 13th pick, and Andrew Bynum, who was the 10th pick. They pulled off a great trade to acquire Pau Gasol and are now poised to compete for championships for at least the next 3-4 years. Likewise, the Celtics were built around Paul Pierce, who was the 10th pick in the draft, and trades for Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.
The Pistons, of course, are anomaly. Always have, and will be. They're they only team in recent memory that's won a title without a superstar.

The Lakers, too are exceptional, because the draw of LA. Big name free agents will always flock there--and they were able to get Kobe because he refused to report to any other team.

I think at this point the Kings don't really need to try and lose more games in an attempt to get a high lottery pick. We already have an all-star caliber 2 guard in Kevin Martin (though he is unlikely to be a "franchise" caliber player), and I think Spencer can have even a better career than Brad Miller's. I honestly think that adding a great free agent in 2010 or making a good trade now would give us a playoff caliber roster. I don't think it has to be a long drawn out process either.
A good trade would be nice, but I wouldn't hold my breath for a major FA signing. Sacto simply doesn't have the draw of other locales, and there's going to be a lot of teams gunning for cap space in 2010. If anything, we'd probably get a Divac type (the biggest profile FA to sign here, keep in mind) who's the final piece of the puzzle, but not the franchise player. We need to get the other pieces first.

Also, I wouldn't hold my breath about the all stars either. Kevin's a great scorer, and I like Spencer's potential, but there's a decent chance that no one on this team makes an all star squad. And that just stinks.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#14
thats why trading webber was such a waste. because his contract wouldve been over and we wouldnt of had corliss, skinner and we wouldnt be stuck with thomas. we would've had cap space to bring some quality here. and webber wasnt a bad player after the injury. im sure we wouldve been better than we were last year if we wouldve kept him till the end of the contract.
But trading Webber was a calculated risk that didn't pan out.

And saying we would have been better last year had we kept him around til the end of his contract is myopic. (And remember, I have ALWAYS been a strong proponent of Chris Webber's). It was painful to see him leave but watching him afterward, especially the brief moments in Golden State, was torture.

Webber would have been totally useless AND just a big target for all those who must have someone to attack.

You cannot say if one thing had not happened everything else would have remained the same. It's the off-season. Perhaps someone ought to start a thread talking about "what if" and include things like "What if Webber had not been traded?" and "What if Peja had been traded the first time for Artest?" and even "What if Vlade had actually re-signed with the Kings, and not gone to the Lakers?"

Bibby's trade, on the other hand, was pretty obvious, as SacKings7 pointed out. It was a clear first step - even acknowledged as such by the Maloofs - towards the REBUILD process.
 
#16
I think the big problem now is that the organization isn't all on the same page regarding a rebuild. It seems like finally ownership and management are starting to get on the same page regarding a rebuild, however it seems to be pretty clear that our coach isn't. Either he needs to go or else he needs to get on the same page as everyone else.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#17
What exactly was the potential upside of the Webber trade risk?
One thought, and I'm merely bringing it up because you asked, was that Peja would step forward and blossom if he wasn't in Webber's shadow. Another possibility was they actually thought they might be able to parlay the players they received in trade into someone else.

My feelings on the Webber trade are still, after all this time, mixed. While I can somewhat understand the thinking that they needed to trade him for whatever they could get because of fears of his physical condition rapidly deteriorating, I think they panicked and accepted an offer that was way too low. But we'll never know. Although he was player of the month when he was traded, it was clear when he got to Philadelphia that he wasn't ever going to be as good as he once was.

After Petrie retires, I'd love for him to write a tell-all book and let us all in on his thought processes and how he reached some of the decisions he made over the years.
 
#18
What exactly was the potential upside of the Webber trade risk?
The now infamous flexible pieces!

All the mistakes at the tail end of the glory years are well chronicled on this board. I'm happy we're at least talking about rebuilding and the Bibby trade was a decent first step. I for one, however, am very dissapointed we passed on Phoenix's first rounder and trade exemption for Ron. Having the 12 and the 15th pick could net us a pg and pf of the future.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#19
But trading Webber was a calculated risk that didn't pan out.

And saying we would have been better last year had we kept him around til the end of his contract is myopic. (And remember, I have ALWAYS been a strong proponent of Chris Webber's). It was painful to see him leave but watching him afterward, especially the brief moments in Golden State, was torture.

Webber would have been totally useless AND just a big target for all those who must have someone to attack.

You cannot say if one thing had not happened everything else would have remained the same. It's the off-season. Perhaps someone ought to start a thread talking about "what if" and include things like "What if Webber had not been traded?" and "What if Peja had been traded the first time for Artest?" and even "What if Vlade had actually re-signed with the Kings, and not gone to the Lakers?"

Bibby's trade, on the other hand, was pretty obvious, as SacKings7 pointed out. It was a clear first step - even acknowledged as such by the Maloofs - towards the REBUILD process.
My great aunt that raised me used to say that " IF " is for children. You can only deal with what is, not what might have been. By the way, I remember that at the time we were thinking of tradin Webber, most of the pundits were saying he was untradable because of his huge contract and his gimpy knee's. To think that we could have gotten more for him is simply dreaming. Petrie tried to break his contract down into smaller pieces he could move. It worked except for KT.. Who would have thought..
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#20
I think the big problem now is that the organization isn't all on the same page regarding a rebuild. It seems like finally ownership and management are starting to get on the same page regarding a rebuild, however it seems to be pretty clear that our coach isn't. Either he needs to go or else he needs to get on the same page as everyone else.
I don't think that Reggie is in any position to question the direction of the team. I'm sure they'll ask for his imput, but this is Petrie's team to build, and I'm sure he has an idea of how he wants to do it.
 
#22
The now infamous flexible pieces!

All the mistakes at the tail end of the glory years are well chronicled on this board. I'm happy we're at least talking about rebuilding and the Bibby trade was a decent first step. I for one, however, am very dissapointed we passed on Phoenix's first rounder and trade exemption for Ron. Having the 12 and the 15th pick could net us a pg and pf of the future.
Having the 20th pick from Denver wouldn't have been that bad either. Was that Phoenix trade really on the table?
 
#23
I think the Bibby trade was an obvious sign that both Petrie and the Maloofs are taking the first step towards rebuilding.
Depends on how one defines "rebuilding." It was a cost-cutting measure forced by Kevin's new contract. While I've got nothing against said contract, I don't think that keeping someone you already have, without paying luxury tax, fits my definition of rebuilding. It might be a part of a rebuild, or it might be no more than an effort to keep costs low while giving up as little as possible.

If there's a rebuild going on, we will know it over the next few months. Right now, I can't consider it to be a foregone conclusion. We could still end up waiting until 2010.
 
#24
I don't think that Reggie is in any position to question the direction of the team. I'm sure they'll ask for his imput, but this is Petrie's team to build, and I'm sure he has an idea of how he wants to do it.
I'm referring to his desire to play the veterans over our youth. You can acquire all the draft picks and young talent in the world but if the coaching staff refuses to give them minutes it makes it very hard to tell if the young players are any good and it seriously impedes any attempt at a rebuild.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#25
Depends on how one defines "rebuilding." It was a cost-cutting measure forced by Kevin's new contract.
I don't think you can support that assumption at this point. Moving Bibby for expirings and Shelden Williams was the stereotypical type of move you usually associate with rebuilding.
 
#26
Depends on how one defines "rebuilding." It was a cost-cutting measure forced by Kevin's new contract. While I've got nothing against said contract, I don't think that keeping someone you already have, without paying luxury tax, fits my definition of rebuilding. It might be a part of a rebuild, or it might be no more than an effort to keep costs low while giving up as little as possible.

If there's a rebuild going on, we will know it over the next few months. Right now, I can't consider it to be a foregone conclusion. We could still end up waiting until 2010.
Trading a highly paid, upper-echelon PG for expiring contracts and a young player is exactly the kind of move rebuilding teams make. Giving Martin his extention was probably a reason for it but this trade, or 1 very similar, was inevitable
 
#27
wow i didnt think my little vent in frustration would lead to such an ongoing discussion. thanks everyone for their input

2) Consciously or unconcsciously you are badly mangling/manipulating start dates on your non-rebuilding examples. Phoenix was a terrible team the year before Nash arrived. Being a terrible team had netted them Amare as well. They absolutely rebuilt with youth, Nash was jsut that final free agent acquisition to bring it all together. "The Heat added Shaq". Yes they did. To a team just coming out of a rebuilding phase which had netted them their own superstar in Wade (as well as given them Caron Butler to trade for Shaq).
i do agree with you to an extent, but the examples i brought up, even though were lottery teams, didnt get a player from the draft that turned the team around right away. though the heat got wade, the years with him before shaq were good but it was shaq that took them to the promise land. LA and the Suns were bad, but not bad enough to land them top 5 draft picks that people would consider a player good enough to turn a team around, and no one would expect a #9 pick to totally turn the team around. if anything amare and bynum would bring their teams from bad to avg but it would be nash and gasol that would make their avg teams good teams. i just wanted to get that point across but i do agree with you that through their bad years, they would get potential pieces that added to the rebuilding process whether it be adding to the team or trading pieces.

what upsets me, as well as other forum members is the fact that the kings organization wont/cant make a decision to go in one direction or another. Keep the team and add that last piece to the puzzle/win now. or get rid of everyone for expiring contracts/draft picks and go through a couple of horrible years. they seem content with just keeping things competative by adding mediocre players and barely missing the playoffs. i just want to know what directions we're heading in. i personally wanted to find that last piece of the puzzle and get their when we still had bibby, but i know that is A LOT easier said than done cuz there would be no guarantee we would find that fabled last piece. rebuilding seems like a more logical path but i dont want to be another atlanta/memphis/charlotte which is constantly rebuilding but going nowhere.
 
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VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#28
I think the misperception comes in the "kings organization wont/cant make a decision to go in one direction or another" comment. The Kings organization actually thought they could be competitive long after most of us saw the handwriting on the wall. This season, finally, they realized what they could no longer deny - the Sacramento Kings were not a playoff contending team and wouldn't be with the current assemblage of players. Thus, the trigger was pulled on the Mike Bibby deal and, for the first time, we saw the owner's faces as they actually talked about rebuilding.

I personally believe Joe and Gavin are going to step back and let Geoff Petrie do his job. And I believe we're going to be a team clearly turning around and heading in the right direction.
 
#29
My great aunt that raised me used to say that " IF " is for children. You can only deal with what is, not what might have been. By the way, I remember that at the time we were thinking of tradin Webber, most of the pundits were saying he was untradable because of his huge contract and his gimpy knee's. To think that we could have gotten more for him is simply dreaming. Petrie tried to break his contract down into smaller pieces he could move. It worked except for KT.. Who would have thought..

BRAVO! And at the time of the trade we had little to no depth at PF. Corliss/Skinner/Thomas all performed well for us in the beginning and the factor everyone is forgetting is that by dealing webber for those pieces allowed the Kings to manage and stay under the lux tax, which is a MUCH bigger deal to the owner's footing the bill, than to us fans - even though we end up paying for in increased cost of attendance or cable programming deals. Why Kenny Thomas forgot how to play basketball is really the enigma I'll never figure out. He was a solid 10/10 guy up until the time we lost Adelman.
 
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#30
BRAVO! And at the time of the trade we had little to no depth at PF. Corliss/Skinner/Thomas all performed well for us in the beginning and the factor everyone is forgetting is that by dealing webber for those pieces allowed the Kings to manage and stay under the lux tax, which is a MUCH bigger deal to the owner's footing the bill, than to us fans - even though we end up paying for in increased cost of attendance or cable programming deals. Why Kenny Thomas forgot how to play basketball is really the enigma I'll never figure out. He was a solid 10/10 guy up until the time we lost Adelman.
At least he managed to squeeze in a triple double against the Lakers :)