Kobe

[Superman]

I will agree that it's not immediately Bryant's fault that the team is sub-par, but only in the same sense that I don't think it's immediately Kevin Garnett's fault that Minnesota is terrible.

Of course, in both cases, I think that it could be fairly argued that if they had been willing to take less money, management would be in a better position to surround them with more talent.

I'd argue the same about Kevin Garnett in Minnesota.

But Kobe plays for the Los Angeles Lakers, not the Hornets or Raptors or some other small market team. This is the same team that was paying Shaq $20+ million a year to play 60-65 games at 80%. The team whose fans are still split down the middle on whether they should have given an overweight, broken-down Shaq a $30 million a year extension for three more years that wouldn't have expired until 2009.

When you consider how much money they're paying Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown (over $20 million together this season), and that they're still paying Brian Grant over $15 million, I don't think Kobe's $17 million is the problem.

 

[VF21]

I guess I'm in the minority here. I don't feel like I have to compare Kobe to anyone else to recognize his greatness. (And yes, the Kings fan in me had a lot of difficulty even typing that sentence.)

I've watched parts of the last couple of games he played and his skills were amazing. He wasn't just taking open jumpers or easy lay-ups off the glass. He's taking shots from everywhere on the court, with two and three guys trying to defend him, and at least one hand right in his face. He's taking shots off-balance, when he can't even really see the hoop, etc.

I do not like Kobe Bryant but I'm enjoying the show. You don't see players like him come along every day. I can enjoy the display of pure skill without having to compare it to any of the other players whose game has consistently given me goosebumps.

 

[AriesMar27]

kobe can play... ive seen him do it in person, but i just dont see him as that much better a player than wade, lebron or tmac... put either one of them on the lakers their records would be better... except maybe tmac and wade because they were/are injured... so their record would probably be about the same.

kobe goes for 50 or 60 but no one else scores more than 10 points... and kobe isnt passing the ball... if he only scores 30 the teams only scores 80 points... he isnt even looking in their direction...

if the team spends the rest of the season watching kobe score they are going to get killed in the playoffs...

 

[fishstick05]

This headline on nba.com gave me a good laugh

"Kobe Bryant, whose jersey is on sale at the NBA Store, made NBA history Friday by joining Wilt as the only player to ever score 50 points in four straight games."

Could they be any more blatantly obvious?

 

[Superman]

Magic was 19.5 ppg career. He could've averaged about 24 ppg easily if that's what he wanted -- he had defensive mismatches every night and teams would give him open perimeter shots rather than to have to double him on the low block. Magic posting up meant a double team that left an open teammate (Scott or Worthy) or a hook shot over a short PG. Bad news for the other team, either way.

Magic was the most unique player ever, imo. I don't think Kobe's as great as him in terms of orchestrating an offense, but then again, that shouldn't be Kobe's job as a SG.

As a result, I think it'd be better to judge Kobe against the SGs and not the PGs.

Agreed. They played two different positions. You can't compare Kobe to Magic as "guards".

However, when it comes to making teammates better, leading your team in the playoffs, etc., Magic was definitely better than Kobe is.

My point is not to argue that Kobe is a great teammate and leader. I just don't agree with the opinion that he's terrible at it, that he's a failure, simply because the Lakers haven't won a championship without Shaq. And let's all be fair: that label will be pinned to Kobe's career forever, until they actually win a championship.

I don't think it's right or necessarily accurate, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

 

[Superman]

Isnt that how economy works, supply and demand.

I am sure every individual in this country is overpaid, but thats not the point, we need to talk about relative terms and not get into macro economics

Don't be so sure, my young padawan. I'm certainly not.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ah..but the most impressive thing about thise streak is that they are winning.

Kobe has always been a selfish prick, putting his own glory above any concept of team. He's scored just to prove he can score. Always about him. And I would suspect there is at least SOME of this that is once again about Kobe just showing off again, and along the way BTW not so accidentally winning the scoring title. But that said, the Lakers have been in a horrible slump since the All-Star break. Just playing terrible. And then Kobe, their franchise player, steps up and goes on a historic streak. And they win every game. Isn't that exactly what you want your franchise guy to do? You are struggling, so he steps forward and carries you to victory? Once they start losing and he is still chucking up shots and beating his chest, sure. Perfectly reasonable complant. then he;s jsut Iverson or Areans. But at the moment him scoring 50 = him carrying his team to victories, and frankly until they stop winning anybody else on that team complaining about shots is the guy with the problem.

 

[AleksandarN]

The moment Kobe gets a roster that comes close to the one Jordan had and still fails to do anything with it then feel free to bash him all you want. Problem is Kobe doesn't have the best defender, best rebounder, the best perimeter shooter, and a roster full of solid veterans on his team. Hell he doesn't have a single Allstar on his team.

I agree

 

[AleksandarN]

Odom is nearly all star calibre.

Talk to me when Kobe gets 3 or 4 MVPs, when he gets multiple finals MVPs, when he gets 70 wins as THE BEST PLAYER, etc.

Why do you always down play Kobe accomplishments. Just enjoy one of greats play. He is the best player in the game today.

 

[AleksandarN]

Dude is averaging 35 shots a game during this "run" plus he's getting to the line like 12-15 times a game. All that and he only had time to dole out 1 assist??

The only good thing about this is the fact that his team is winning while he is doing this.

How about the fact that they lost like 8 games in a row before his current run. The Lakers are not a good team.

 

[AriesMar27]

but if they had lost those games would it be an accomplishment? or if they split the games? the entire country would be talking about how selfish he is...

so why is it great when they win? they are lucky that the grizzlies missed that tip shot...

 

[AleksandarN]

Oh and to get back to what I originally said, what Kobe's doing right now IS similar to what TMac did in Orlando. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html

In that season TMac threw up 32/6/5/2 steals and led his team to 42 wins with a horrible supporting cast. Those numbers are similar to or superior to what Kobe is doing right now, even though Kobe's had more 50 point games and what he did last season is superior. TMac actually had a 60 point game and I believe 1 or 2 50 point games in that season or the next season, he was a different player then.

Kobe's better and all but to say it isn't something similar is simply uneducated.

the difference is kobe is and was on a different level then TMac

 

[AleksandarN]

I also think that Magic is a better rebounder and I'd rather give the ball to Magic with a game on the line.

And you didn't qualify your statement with a "European" delineation; you said "second-best guard ever." Magic and Kobe are both guards. And Magic, IMO, is better than Kobe. Being a more dynamic scorer, in and of itself, doesn't make Kobe a better guard than Magic any more than it makes Iverson a better guard than Isaiah Thomas. Kobe may be a more dominant scorer and even a better defender, but Magic IMO is better in every other aspect of the game of basketball.

If that is how you view things; who is a better basketball player MJ or Magic?

 

[Superman]

kobe can play... ive seen him do it in person, but i just dont see him as that much better a player than wade, lebron or tmac... put either one of them on the lakers their records would be better... except maybe tmac and wade because they were/are injured... so their record would probably be about the same.

kobe goes for 50 or 60 but no one else scores more than 10 points... and kobe isnt passing the ball... if he only scores 30 the teams only scores 80 points... he isnt even looking in their direction...

if the team spends the rest of the season watching kobe score they are going to get killed in the playoffs...

Wow.

That's interesting to me. The Houston Rockets are only 7 games ahead of the Lakers, and that's with a much better team overall. Now, Yao has missed a lot of time, and McGrady has missed a few games, too. But I don't see any reasonable evidence to conclude that McGrady could do more with the Lakers than Kobe is doing.

Same thing with Cleveland. They have a substantially better roster, I think, than the Lakers, and are only five games ahead of them. LeBron is a great player, top three in the NBA, but I don't think he could do more with the Lakers than Kobe.

As for Dwyane Wade.... Very, very impressive career so far. But I don't think he's as good a player as Kobe. I think we've looked at the successes he's had so far and gone on to hail him as "The Great Dwyane Wade", but I think it's a little premature. He will one day be that, but if you take away what the Heat did last season with a much, much, much better team than the Lakers this season, a team with more depth than any Laker championship team of this decade ever had... I just don't see any reason to believe that Wade would be capable of doing as much or more than Kobe has done with the Lakers the past two seasons.

I hate this topic. I feel dirty, supporting a Laker, and Kobe Bryant, at that. However, I think it's ridiculous to say that you can take any of those three players, insert them for Kobe and expect to see similar successes. I think Kobe is a superior player to all of them. And at times like this, when the Lakers have shown their inability to win without Kobe scoring 50 a night, it becomes apparent that he HAS to take shots in order for them to win.

For instance, over the span of their recent seven game losing streak, Kobe averaged 24 shots a game, with just under 7 assists (and one of those was a double-OT). I don't think that would qualify as not looking for his teammates.

Then you look at the last four games, and he's averaged 35 shots and under 3 assists, and you say "he's hogging the ball". Well, first of all, they just won 4 games in a row after losing 7 when he was looking for his teammates, so who cares? They're winning. And secondly, if you watched any of those games, or just a couple of minutes of any of them, you realize that Kobe isn't dominating the ball anymore than he normally does. He's just shooting more often, as in, nearly every time he touches it. But the ball is moving, as is evidenced by the fact that the team has averaged 27 assists per game over the past four. His teammates are setting him up.

I don't think he'll continue to shoot 35 times a game on into the playoffs, but if he has to carry the load to get them there, then he's showing he's more than capable of doing so. And I think that's mostly what makes him great.

 

[vladetomiller]

Don't be so sure, my young padawan. I'm certainly not.

I am sure you are

 

[vladetomiller]

Oh and to get back to what I originally said, what Kobe's doing right now IS similar to what TMac did in Orlando. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2003.html

In that season TMac threw up 32/6/5/2 steals and led his team to 42 wins with a horrible supporting cast. Those numbers are similar to or superior to what Kobe is doing right now, even though Kobe's had more 50 point games and what he did last season is superior. TMac actually had a 60 point game and I believe 1 or 2 50 point games in that season or the next season, he was a different player then.

Kobe's better and all but to say it isn't something similar is simply uneducated.

First of all you are showing your ignorance and lack of maturity by calling others uneducated.

TMac did have a good season that year, but you very well know that Mike Bibby and TMac have a tough race on the defensive side of things. I dont understand how you can compare last year to TMacs by throwing 1 60 point game and two 50 point games.

Scoring 80 points in a game where lots of teams score in mid eighties as a team. He outscored the mavs last year through three quarters and didnt have to play the fourth quarter, multiple games he did not enter the fourth quarter at all after scoring those 50s through 3 quarters.

Last year and this scoring spree is something special, whether he is a player of a team that I like or not, it is something that you have to appreciate as a fan of basketball. But the more I see your posts I guess you are not a fan of basketball and you are just a fan of a team, which is fine anyways, nothing wrong with it. I am a fan of the game first and then a few teams.

 

[VF21]

Last year and this scoring spree is something special, whether he is a player of a team that I like or not, it is something that you have to appreciate as a fan of basketball. But the more I see your posts I guess you are not a fan of basketball and you are just a fan of a team, which is fine anyways, nothing wrong with it. I am a fan of the game first and then a few teams.

I don't agree with you very often, so this is kind of scary.

I do, however, understand exactly the point you're trying to make. I'm a fan of the game of basketball first. I became a fan of the Sacramento Kings when they became the Sacramento Kings. Before that I liked the Boston Celtics. Through it all, however, I've liked various players regardless of the jerseys they've worn because of their skills or just because of their obvious love of the game. I don't follow other teams, though. It's the game of basketball, the Sacramento Kings, and various players. (Having said that, I do hold a spot in my heart for the Pistons as long as Webber is on their team...but only that long.)

 

[Gargamel]

its funny that kobe scores 60 points and the team only wins by 2 points against a horrible team... thats not greatness...

the man can ball but he is not much of a leader... shaq lead the lakers, kobe was shaqs pippen... dont ever forget that... all these comparisons to mj are horrible...

a better comparison for kobe would be dominique wilkins, not jordan...

Let's not forget that Shaq has had plenty of foibles as leader of a team. He wasn't seen very positively after 0-4 sweeps year after year. Took him some time to break thru the wall. I don't even think Kobe's in the same situation that Shaq was in. He didn't inherit quality veterans or another star to carry slack.

Kobe's not Wilkins. Most GMs would probably take Pippen over Wilkins (I would too). Not a good comparison.

 

[BMiller52]

First of all you are showing your ignorance and lack of maturity by calling others uneducated.

TMac did have a good season that year, but you very well know that Mike Bibby and TMac have a tough race on the defensive side of things. I dont understand how you can compare last year to TMacs by throwing 1 60 point game and two 50 point games.

Scoring 80 points in a game where lots of teams score in mid eighties as a team. He outscored the mavs last year through three quarters and didnt have to play the fourth quarter, multiple games he did not enter the fourth quarter at all after scoring those 50s through 3 quarters.

Last year and this scoring spree is something special, whether he is a player of a team that I like or not, it is something that you have to appreciate as a fan of basketball. But the more I see your posts I guess you are not a fan of basketball and you are just a fan of a team, which is fine anyways, nothing wrong with it. I am a fan of the game first and then a few teams.

I already said that Kobe was at a higher level, but it's the fact that they both average between 30 and 35(Kobe averaged 35 and this season 30, TMac averaged 32 or 33) and their teams get between 42-45 wins. Is that not similar enough for you? Yeah there are some differences but not too many.

I never said his scoring spree wasn't something special, I said it's not enough to say he's the GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME. And it's not. So you are just twisting my words. Obviously it's special. Obviously I'm a fan of basketball. But you are just twisting my words. When I say "it's not enough to say he's the GOAT, and is similar to what TMac did in Orlando(even though I have mentioned multiple times Kobe IS on a higher level than TMac)" you manage to twist that somehow into "it's not special and kobe is just some average basketball player".

 

[Gargamel]

And then Kobe, their franchise player, steps up and goes on a historic streak. And they win every game. Isn't that exactly what you want your franchise guy to do?

A point lost in all this is that Jackson directed him to do this. Jacko isn't BSing either because he loosened the reins on him in mid-2003 too, which lead to a 40 pt streak and a push out of lottery contention. Same thing here, but 10+ more ppg. If the coach doesn't have a problem with it, I don't see what the problem is.

 

[Gargamel]

This is kind of a tangent to the current discussion, but having seen him for his entire career, I've come to the conclusion that it's easier for him to score 50 pts with his style than it is for guys like Jordan or Bron. Kobe has had countless games where he starts draining one long contested jumper after another to balloon his tally. Over the past couple years, I think he's mastered the ability to do that over a whole game, more or less. Jordan didn't feel comfortable just bounding down court and launching a long jumper when he was hot. That's probably because he didn't have that kind of 3 pt range. Kobe, otoh, has had more 7+ trey games than Reggie Miller. When Kobe got 55 against the Wiz in 2003, there was a point where he ran down to the same spot 3 straight times and shot a three in transition -- each one longer than the previous, each went in.

When I say "easier for him to score 50", I mean that the kind of shots he nails when he's very hot are the kind of shots that players typically put up when they get tired. I think it's more of an expense of energy and pain to get most of your 50/60 by exerting yourself in driving to the rim and getting hammered in the process.

That's me, tho. Maybe I'm off.

 

[VF21]

Interesting theory, Gargy. And there might actually be something to it. If you feel that confident in your three-point shot that it becomes almost automatic, you save energy by not having to get closer. And nothing demoralizes a defender more than having some guy pull up and launch longer and longer threes. And each of those successes gives him one point more than a corresponding drive inside by a LeBron James or similar type player.

 

[hoopsfan]

kobe goes for 50 or 60 but no one else scores more than 10 points... and kobe isnt passing the ball...

Oh, he's passing the ball, it's just that no one else can make a shot.

(Odom has had 25-20 point games with dbl-dbl's. The game vs. Minnesota saw 3 players with near triple-doubles.)

 

[vladetomiller]

but if they had lost those games would it be an accomplishment? or if they split the games? the entire country would be talking about how selfish he is...

so why is it great when they win? they are lucky that the grizzlies missed that tip shot...

Isnt that applicable to everyone, if MJ did not make that shot against B Russel will we be talking about how he shouldnt have taken that shot and why he should have passed that to the open three at the corner for Kerr (I dont know if he was even in the game but I can come up with one )

By the way since they won that game isnt your point moot. jeez, even after they win and the guy makes history you find reasons and in fact what ifs to belittle him.

To answer anyways, even if they had lost those games I dont think people would have said anything other than blind haters like you. They were playing team basketball and lost 7 in a row, so nothing would have changed. Haters and in fact blind haters can find fault with everything in this world.

 

[BMiller52]

This is kinda off topic but I have family who are huge fans of Kobe and they don't think he's better than Jordan, Bird, etc.

Obviously what he's doing is special, obviously he's 15th-20th all time atleast, obviously he's a great player, but I have a problem with people calling him the GOAT when he can't even make the 2nd round as the best player on that team. Don't get me wrong I'm not bashing him or anything, but I don't see how you can say he's the GOAT or up there when he can't even make the 2nd round as the best player on his team.

 

[VF21]

Who called him the greatest of all time? I think you're getting Kingsfans.com confused with another board again...

 

[Geoff]

Great players lead their teams out of the 1st round. Kobe has never actually lead a team to the 2nd round...

He's doing what TMac did in Orlando with a slightly better supporting cast.

Like VF21 said, no one claimed he was the greatest player of all time; just that he is a great player. You disagreed, based on this statement (your second statement in the thread after 'boooooo'.

Personally, I disagree with your definition of "great players" and I think your statement about Kobe not leading a team to the second round is misleading. It dismisses the fact that Shaq isn't the one who led Miami to its championship; it was D-Wade plus Shaq, just as it was Kobe plus Shaq those three times they won. Other people have put forward good arguments showing the definition of "greatness" and the fact that Kobe is pretty much the best player in the NBA right now, hate him or hate him. He's not the MVP, he's not the GOAT and at this stage he may not elevate the players around him (and that may be changing)...but not many other players in the league can force a win for their team by themselves. I like Agent Zero, but he talks while Kobe walks.

For arguments sake, who led Sacramento out of the first round during the glory days? If u say Chris Webber, does that make him a greater player than Kobe?

 

[DaMan]

Wow.

That's interesting to me. The Houston Rockets are only 7 games ahead of the Lakers, and that's with a much better team overall. Now, Yao has missed a lot of time, and McGrady has missed a few games, too. But I don't see any reasonable evidence to conclude that McGrady could do more with the Lakers than Kobe is doing.

The Great T-Mac Vs. Kobe debate i just love these.

I have to say that kobe is most likely the best 2 guard in the leauge with T-mac coming in a distant 2, and Lebron and wade as 3 and 4. The only reason that Kobe is better player then T-Mac is because kobe trys game in and game out and you could u see it, lol. From watching T-Mac for years now he seems like he saves his best games for the playoffs or inparticular games in the regular season, mainly against the Mavs, suns and S.A. I don't know if it is because of his back or if he wants to give those teams a taste of what he will do to them in the playoffs, lol. Mostly during the season it seems like T-mac is more likely to be laid back while his teammates do most of the work, unlike kobe who is much more insetive, it seems like T-Mac is saving his energy for something when it looks like he could do much more.

With all that being said I think that McGrady does have the abilitiy to do more for the lakers then what kobe is currently doing. T-mac for much of the season with out Yao carried his team to a 5 seed and near the 4th, in my opinion, with far less talent. And with McGrady's abitiliy to trust his teammates i think that will give the lakers more win and confidence to teammates unlike kobe who is either passes to much or passes very little and has no medium.

 

[Gargamel]

This is kinda off topic but I have family who are huge fans of Kobe and they don't think he's better than Jordan, Bird, etc.

Obviously what he's doing is special, obviously he's 15th-20th all time atleast, obviously he's a great player, but I have a problem with people calling him the GOAT

People who actually say that are fanboys. Young ones. Especially young ones from parts of the world where there's a bare minimum of NBA footage.

I don't think he's better than Jordan, Bird, Magic. He is a great player though. You were contesting even that much.

 

[Gargamel]

From BSPN.com:

Chamberlain shot 36 of 63 from the field and 28 of 32 from the line in his 100-point game March 2, 1962, and the Lakers attempted 115 shots and 52 free throws in that game. (Their opponent, the New York Knicks, attempted 118 field goals and 41 free throws in that game).

Can you find the stupid mistake?