To Tank or not to Tank...what would you want?
- Thread starter mdme
- Start date
These sentiments have been expressed on this board multiple times, so I know I am just rephrasing them. However, please remember the following
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By the summer of 2010 (it seems very far away, but intermediate relief and continous growth shall continue to come in.), most of our high paid veteran roster shall morph into a fairly young team that shall have played together for a while (can happen sooner with trades, but tough with the way our guys are playing). We shall have Kevin, next year's picks (hopefully high), and some more young guys (all or some of Salmons, Price, Cisco, Douby + potentially some more from trades), plus subsequent picks. By that year, with some luck and skills, we might be a force. Else, we shall continue to fight for the 8th spot each year. I pick the former.
- Superstars, particularly young superstars in their prime are rarely virtually never traded.
- In the rare case that they are, you need a bunch of very good players to trade for him.
- The superstar has a virtual veto on the choice. Technically, his older team can trade him anywhere. However, no team shall trade for a star if he expresses disinterest in playing for them (e.g. Iverson recently. Webber is the only exception I can think of).
- Make some move like last year, remain competitive enough to make the playoffs as a lower seed. Hope internal growth by our lower end draft picks shall continue to push us up each year.
- Recognize the fact that this year's draft is laden with potential superstars, and if we are lucky, we can land one.
).By the summer of 2010 (it seems very far away, but intermediate relief and continous growth shall continue to come in.), most of our high paid veteran roster shall morph into a fairly young team that shall have played together for a while (can happen sooner with trades, but tough with the way our guys are playing). We shall have Kevin, next year's picks (hopefully high), and some more young guys (all or some of Salmons, Price, Cisco, Douby + potentially some more from trades), plus subsequent picks. By that year, with some luck and skills, we might be a force. Else, we shall continue to fight for the 8th spot each year. I pick the former.
Moderators are, first and foremost, fans. Sorry if some of us dare to want the team wearing the uniforms of the Sacramento Kings to regroup after watching them decline for the past two years.
This is a game, remember? We're not advocating euthanasia. We're talking about getting in a different group of players and starting fresh. We're saying that we want an Extreme Makeover: Kings Edition.
Sometimes you have to lose a battle or two on your way to winning the war. We've tried rebuilding on the fly and it hasn't worked. Now, it appears as though this off-season might just present the best chance Petrie has had - because of player availability, ending contracts and some veteran players with trade value - to get the team back going in the right direction. But, in order to do so, he has to STOP putting bandaids on the wounds. He has to let the king die so the new king can take his place.
If we didn't care about this team and want the best for it, we wouldn't still be here. We DO care and it's not about a loser mentality. It's about being able to see the forest AND the trees.
This is a game, remember? We're not advocating euthanasia. We're talking about getting in a different group of players and starting fresh. We're saying that we want an Extreme Makeover: Kings Edition.
Sometimes you have to lose a battle or two on your way to winning the war. We've tried rebuilding on the fly and it hasn't worked. Now, it appears as though this off-season might just present the best chance Petrie has had - because of player availability, ending contracts and some veteran players with trade value - to get the team back going in the right direction. But, in order to do so, he has to STOP putting bandaids on the wounds. He has to let the king die so the new king can take his place.
If we didn't care about this team and want the best for it, we wouldn't still be here. We DO care and it's not about a loser mentality. It's about being able to see the forest AND the trees.
To tank or not to tank - it's not like we have a choice now, do we.
The Maloofs will lead and Petrie will follow as best he can.
Right now, we're headed downhill fast. There's no denying that.
Is this Petrie's strategy now? Surely he didn't think he could build a successful team with Kenny Thomas and Corliss Williamson did he? Was that trade meant to put this team in the lottery? Is that his strategy? It's working.
How far down will we have to go before we get lucky again and get another Webber-like deal?
This team needs a leader. A team leader like Vlade was. Not Bibby. Certainly not Artest. And no draft pick is going to be a leader either. Where is that leader going to come from?
The Maloofs will lead and Petrie will follow as best he can.
Right now, we're headed downhill fast. There's no denying that.
Is this Petrie's strategy now? Surely he didn't think he could build a successful team with Kenny Thomas and Corliss Williamson did he? Was that trade meant to put this team in the lottery? Is that his strategy? It's working.
How far down will we have to go before we get lucky again and get another Webber-like deal?
This team needs a leader. A team leader like Vlade was. Not Bibby. Certainly not Artest. And no draft pick is going to be a leader either. Where is that leader going to come from?
Never give up, never surrender!
No tanks, thanks.
I remember the bad old days. Lottery picks year after year. Surely THIS No. 7 pick will get us over the top ... not. Been there, done that.
Yeah, it's a good draft on paper. But playing to get an impact player in the draft is an extreme gamble; what are the odds of any one team winning the lottery, or even a top-three pick? There have been many drafts where someone picked in the teens or even the second round have been as good in the long run as the top pick. Oden's a can't-miss, right? Portland thought Sam Bowie was a can't-miss. The Kings thought Pervis Ellison was a can't-miss. The Celtics thought Len Bias was a can't-miss.
Maybe not a fair comparison, but stuff happens.
Better, if the Kings are in fact a do-over at this stage, to see what combination of proven commodities and draft picks/young players you can get for Artest, Miller and Bibby than to pin all hopes on getting a superstar in the draft.
We all know what the Kings' problems are. The fact they don't have a shot-blocker exposes Bibby's inability to stop penetration, and vice-versa. The high-powered offense that used to overcome the defensive liabilities is in flux.
Can you solve the defensive issues through the draft? Maybe, but then again, Joaquin Noah could turn out to be Pervis Ellison Lite.
No tanks, thanks.
I remember the bad old days. Lottery picks year after year. Surely THIS No. 7 pick will get us over the top ... not. Been there, done that.
Yeah, it's a good draft on paper. But playing to get an impact player in the draft is an extreme gamble; what are the odds of any one team winning the lottery, or even a top-three pick? There have been many drafts where someone picked in the teens or even the second round have been as good in the long run as the top pick. Oden's a can't-miss, right? Portland thought Sam Bowie was a can't-miss. The Kings thought Pervis Ellison was a can't-miss. The Celtics thought Len Bias was a can't-miss.
Maybe not a fair comparison, but stuff happens.
Better, if the Kings are in fact a do-over at this stage, to see what combination of proven commodities and draft picks/young players you can get for Artest, Miller and Bibby than to pin all hopes on getting a superstar in the draft.
We all know what the Kings' problems are. The fact they don't have a shot-blocker exposes Bibby's inability to stop penetration, and vice-versa. The high-powered offense that used to overcome the defensive liabilities is in flux.
Can you solve the defensive issues through the draft? Maybe, but then again, Joaquin Noah could turn out to be Pervis Ellison Lite.
what is there to lose? we're losing anyway. when your down there is only one other way... and that is up. we'll eventually go back up. lottery here we come!!
Again, I don't think anyone is suggesting a draft pick alone is suddenly going to turn around our fortunes. It's going to take more than that, some trades are necessary and there's free agency, but a high draft pick is a key, key component.
I wouldn't be advocating tanking in another year. But there are some players at the top of this draft class who are absolute no-brainer superstars like we haven't seen since the LeBron/Wade/Carmelo/Bosh year.
The Kings can either suffer through one miserable year or they can miss out on the opportunity of the decade. I'll take one bad year any day.
I wouldn't be advocating tanking in another year. But there are some players at the top of this draft class who are absolute no-brainer superstars like we haven't seen since the LeBron/Wade/Carmelo/Bosh year.
The Kings can either suffer through one miserable year or they can miss out on the opportunity of the decade. I'll take one bad year any day.
Question to all "tankers":
We play the Lakers on April 18th as our last game of the season. Hypothetically, let's say we are battling for the 8th playoff spot and a win against the Lakers means we are in the playoffs and a loss means we are out.
Who are you going to cheer for that day?
note: I tried not to post on the topic anymore, but could not resist this question.
We play the Lakers on April 18th as our last game of the season. Hypothetically, let's say we are battling for the 8th playoff spot and a win against the Lakers means we are in the playoffs and a loss means we are out.
Who are you going to cheer for that day?
note: I tried not to post on the topic anymore, but could not resist this question.
^I hope to god we're not fighting for the 8th playoff spot at the end of the year. At that point I'd root for the Kings because it won't make any difference, we're still getting a mediocre pick.
You should make the question more difficult: the Kings are tied with Philly for the worst record in the league. If they win the game they have the second worst team in the league and a 19% shot at the first pick. If they lose they have the worst record in the league and a 25% shot at the first pick. Then who do you root for?
And I don't know about other people, but I'd be a Laker fan for a day if it means a better shot at Oden and Durant.
You should make the question more difficult: the Kings are tied with Philly for the worst record in the league. If they win the game they have the second worst team in the league and a 19% shot at the first pick. If they lose they have the worst record in the league and a 25% shot at the first pick. Then who do you root for?
And I don't know about other people, but I'd be a Laker fan for a day if it means a better shot at Oden and Durant.
The team has hope
No, we have the highest probability of getting an impact big man
be patient so the team develops chemistry and young players emerge like Martin has this year
He won't be a rookie in 3 years when the team has a chance at re-emerging
The Bobcats are in the middle of building. Check back in another couple of years and they'll probably be up there in the East. Who on this team would you rather have than Okafor?
I've been a fan since 85 so I know a high draft pick doesn't = championship. But our ownership and management was garbage as well. Time + cap space + high draft picks + solid GM + good coaching = chance to contend.
No, we have the highest probability of getting an impact big man
be patient so the team develops chemistry and young players emerge like Martin has this year
He won't be a rookie in 3 years when the team has a chance at re-emerging
The Bobcats are in the middle of building. Check back in another couple of years and they'll probably be up there in the East. Who on this team would you rather have than Okafor?
I've been a fan since 85 so I know a high draft pick doesn't = championship. But our ownership and management was garbage as well. Time + cap space + high draft picks + solid GM + good coaching = chance to contend.
That's how I'm reading many posts here.
I'm not against a nice draft pick.
And I agree, trades are essential.
I am against losing the will to win in order to get a draft pick when that draft pick is a gamble no matter who it is.
I think most of us are not that far apart in what we're saying. We recognize the current problems. We know something has to change. And none of us have any control over it anyway.
I'm not against a nice draft pick.
And I agree, trades are essential.
I am against losing the will to win in order to get a draft pick when that draft pick is a gamble no matter who it is.
I think most of us are not that far apart in what we're saying. We recognize the current problems. We know something has to change. And none of us have any control over it anyway.
This team has no will to win!!! We're not talking about a good team who is winning and having fun on the court and looking good doing it. This team is not good. They're old, they're cranky, they have no personality and they look completely joyless. What exactly is this team going to give up by going young and losing a lot of games?
To lose the will to win you have to have a will to win to begin with. This team doesn't have that. They need fresh blood, and it would help if the fresh blood is really really good.
To lose the will to win you have to have a will to win to begin with. This team doesn't have that. They need fresh blood, and it would help if the fresh blood is really really good.
If we're in that position on April 18th, then we haven't really gone about "tanking" (hate that word, for the record, as I don't think it acurately represents an organization making a conscious effort to rebuild, but... whatever) the right way. Squeaking into the 8th spot does nothing for us. Barely missing the 8th spot does slightly less nothing for us.
My hope would be that the organization will have at that point already begun the rebuild in earnest and we'd have dropped low enough that a good, old fashioned Laker beating won't have a significant impact on our draft situation. Win-win.
My hope would be that the organization will have at that point already begun the rebuild in earnest and we'd have dropped low enough that a good, old fashioned Laker beating won't have a significant impact on our draft situation. Win-win.
By the way i think oden will be going to either PHI or MEM. MEM is the "worst" team in the league. But with oden they are possibly the best. My dreams are that we are tanking but the reality is that we are NOT! which only means we will get lucky wina few games still miss the playoffs but be nowhere near where we need to be. And that is really really bad. There will be a few teams that will be trying to loose and no matter how bad you are you cant be worse then a team trying to lose, especially when you have Artest, Bibby, Miller, and Martin on the team. In reality what will happen this year is that we will play oursels out of the top 3 and most likely just out o the top 10. Get a nobody in the draft and either try to patch something next year. When it does not work we will then give the order to rebuild but by then our dominant big guy that we have always wanted will be on the future behemoth of the NBA.
LOL true, but it always seems it drops their way and not our. See i have a theory, a theory many of us dont want to hear. I think God just does not like the Kings. I came to that conclusion when my heart was broken Horry and we could not make a free throw. But i guess we will see come this lottery. But at the bottom of my heart i know we will go on a pointless winning streak and play oursels out of the lottery/
Maybe. I'm not sure that just because we are not winning that equates to not having a will to win.
And I've mentioned this before. A will to win is an organizational attitude that has no relation to whether or not you are, in fact, winning.
I'm talking about a cancer that spreads in an organization that lasts for years and is not changed regardless of who is drafted or who is gained in trades.
I'm talking about the Clippers. I'm talking about the "old" Kings.
I'm not saying that making trades is comparable to losing a will to win. I'm also not saying that if, by sheer lack of talent, one ends up in the lottery, it's comparable to losing a will to win.
And at this time, I do not see a loss of a will to win in either Petrie nor the Maloofs, so I'm OK for now.
And I've mentioned this before. A will to win is an organizational attitude that has no relation to whether or not you are, in fact, winning.
I'm talking about a cancer that spreads in an organization that lasts for years and is not changed regardless of who is drafted or who is gained in trades.
I'm talking about the Clippers. I'm talking about the "old" Kings.
I'm not saying that making trades is comparable to losing a will to win. I'm also not saying that if, by sheer lack of talent, one ends up in the lottery, it's comparable to losing a will to win.
And at this time, I do not see a loss of a will to win in either Petrie nor the Maloofs, so I'm OK for now.
Just the point I was going to make.
You want the guys you have to play as hard as they can to try and win every game.
But if management makes a few trades which in the short term will result in losses but potentially in a great draft pick and a better team in the near future, I don't think that will foster a "losing" atmosphere with the remaining guys, especially when the season is going in the dumps the way it is. I think it lets them know the future is being planned for and better times lay ahead.
When I contribute to my 401k and have less money coming home each paycheck, I think about the future it will bring me, not the current minor frivolities I have to do without in the short term.
You want the guys you have to play as hard as they can to try and win every game.
But if management makes a few trades which in the short term will result in losses but potentially in a great draft pick and a better team in the near future, I don't think that will foster a "losing" atmosphere with the remaining guys, especially when the season is going in the dumps the way it is. I think it lets them know the future is being planned for and better times lay ahead.
When I contribute to my 401k and have less money coming home each paycheck, I think about the future it will bring me, not the current minor frivolities I have to do without in the short term.
This really all comes down to "that vision thing". Short term thinking vs. taking a longer view. Stubborn vs. smart. I would say risk adverse vs, risk taker, but I think that's a concession I don't have to make because while rebuilding entails a risk of failure, it also entails a risk of success, whereas those advocating NOT rebuilding are essentially advocating near guaranteed failure. If you have two patients dying of cancer, and one of them opts for the risky surgery while the other opts to do nothing but watch his/her life slowly slip away in the hopes that maybe it will clear up by itself, which one is really the more interested in living?
Losing only becomes entrenched if you do it for a long time. Ditto for mediocrity. That is the very reason that a smart organization should acclerate the losing spiral. You get it over with. If your downward path can either be 50 44 38 40 36 32 27 or 50 44 27, option B is INFINITELY preferable. And when you can choose option B and have it coincide with the perfect draft to execute an option B plan -- essentially a LeBron draft, except with bigger players, this is really a no brainer.
Losing only becomes entrenched if you do it for a long time. Ditto for mediocrity. That is the very reason that a smart organization should acclerate the losing spiral. You get it over with. If your downward path can either be 50 44 38 40 36 32 27 or 50 44 27, option B is INFINITELY preferable. And when you can choose option B and have it coincide with the perfect draft to execute an option B plan -- essentially a LeBron draft, except with bigger players, this is really a no brainer.
I'm glad you posted this question because it shows that you don't understand what a number of us are trying to say...
It's NOT about asking the players to intentionally lose games. It's not about rooting against your own team.
As GoGoGadget has said above, it's about management NOT applying any more heroic efforts to try and "save" the patient. It's about letting nature, so to speak, run its course.
I don't care what the situation is on April 18. I will ALWAYS root for the Kings. I just do not want to see Petrie - between now and then - make some trades that might help get us into the playoffs this season but leave us in the same predicament for the next few years. In other words, don't trade expiring contracts for a second-tier veteran who might help stop the bleeding temporarily but won't fix the real problem.
It's NOT about asking the players to intentionally lose games. It's not about rooting against your own team.
As GoGoGadget has said above, it's about management NOT applying any more heroic efforts to try and "save" the patient. It's about letting nature, so to speak, run its course.
I don't care what the situation is on April 18. I will ALWAYS root for the Kings. I just do not want to see Petrie - between now and then - make some trades that might help get us into the playoffs this season but leave us in the same predicament for the next few years. In other words, don't trade expiring contracts for a second-tier veteran who might help stop the bleeding temporarily but won't fix the real problem.
