To Tank or not to Tank...what would you want?

[Cal-Kings]

Risky for what? This team is not a team. It's a group of players with no identity, no real sense of camaraderie and no real chance of finding either in sufficient quantity to make any real noise in the playoffs.

I love this team. Have forever. BUT I do not want to see a first-round-and-out playoff appearance. I would feel much more comfortable watching a new team come together and form an identity, such as what happened last time, than continue to see the players, coaches, and everyone else struggling as they try one more heroic but failing effort to find the pulse.

And the "Las Vegas Kings" comment is just utterly and completely without merit or basis in fact. All most fans want is to know what's happening. Bringing up the threat of the team moving is something people seem to do every time they want to emphasize the risk/importance of something they've said.

How is "Las Vegas Kings" utterly and completely without merit?

Losing is a downward spiral that builds momentum as it goes. It may be that nothing Petrie does now can stop this downward momentum we're on. It may, in fact, already be too late.

I'm not "threatening" a team move. I have no power to do so.

What I'm implying is that losing takes fans away (many of whom are already priced out of their seats). People start to forget the Kings exist. Witness the lack of calls on KHTK about the Kings these days. People are moving on. Nobody is paying attention.

It makes it hard to find funds for a new stadium.

No new stadium = ??

You do the math.

 

[VF21]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I think you're underestimating a lot of Kings fans who won't abandon the team simply because they're rebuilding.

And the idea of the Las Vegas Kings is pretty much beating a dead horse IMHO. Anaheim Kings? Maybe. Kansas City KIngs? Hey, could happen. They aren't going to move to Vegas, however, for a myriad of reasons but primarily because David Stern isn't going to allow it.

I'm not going to derail this thread into another discussion about the arena and the team moving because it's been done to death and, again IMHO, the Maloofs have done everything possible to show that they do NOT want to move the team.

The lack of calls on KHTK could be for a lot of reasons, including the lack of any new topic to discuss. How many different times can you call in and say the team lost because of poor free throw shooting or not enough defense?

Losing is a part of winning. I don't know of ANY team that hasn't lost on occasion. Sometimes you have to stop falling by hitting the bottom so you can begin to climb back up...

 

[Cal-Kings]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I think you're underestimating a lot of Kings fans who won't abandon the team simply because they're rebuilding.

And the idea of the Las Vegas Kings is pretty much beating a dead horse IMHO. Anaheim Kings? Maybe. Kansas City KIngs? Hey, could happen. They aren't going to move to Vegas, however, for a myriad of reasons but primarily because David Stern isn't going to allow it.

I'm not going to derail this thread into another discussion about the arena and the team moving because it's been done to death and, again IMHO, the Maloofs have done everything possible to show that they do NOT want to move the team.

The lack of calls on KHTK could be for a lot of reasons, including the lack of any new topic to discuss. How many different times can you call in and say the team lost because of poor free throw shooting or not enough defense?

Losing is a part of winning. I don't know of ANY team that hasn't lost on occasion. Sometimes you have to stop falling by hitting the bottom so you can begin to climb back up...

Sorry, I wasn't here for all the "arena vs. move" debates so please excuse my lack of historical context.

Yes, there will always be die-hard fans. But we're not a huge number, nothing like the crowds of fans who cared when we were contending. Those folks find other things to spend their time on. (I guess they have a life. )

Without "derailing" this thread on a topic you no longer wish to discuss, I still feel that losing when it appears to be on purpose, sets bad things on motion.

What those "bad things" are, we can all guess.

It's possible to rise like a Phoenix after going down in flames, I'm just hoping the Kings are still around long enough that I can enjoy it.

 

[supamari0]

I think you guys are overestimating what it takes to rebuild.

First, this team is FULL of role players. Not a single player on this team is a superstar or is capable of hoisting the team on his back and winning. Guys like Kobe, Lebron, DWade, T-Mac, etc.. are those kinds of players. This team has a bunch of role players and wannabe superstars (Artest ).

Second, I firmly believe that this team just needs that one player and maybe a couple of fixes. A guy like Durant gives this team an instant star who can just run the show. Oden gives this team a dominant low post presence but in this age of new rules that benefit perimiter players, I don't like the idea of building around post-players anymore.

So lets say they get a guy like Durant (who probably can play PF if he bulks up, he's 6-10 and still growing). I'll assume Bibby stays because he's sucking so much this year that he'll never be able to get that kind of money on the open market. So Bibby and Martin in the backcourt (which is rock solid in my opinion, as bad as Bibby has played) Dump Artest in the offseason if possible for either another SF or front court help. Durant would play the PF spot and the center spot just needs to be a big guy who can rebound and play defense. (Melvin Ely, Diop, Mikki Moore, Jamaal Magloire, Kurt Thomas, or get lucky and trade or draft)

This team needs that one big player and then complimentary guys with defined roles. Bibby needs to stop playing hero. This won't be his team anymore and he'll be the point guard. Kevin Martin is your 2nd scorer who'll have plenty of opportunities. Franchise player gets the bulk of scoring opportunities. The SF should be able hit 3s (which he'll get off of kickouts from the franchise guy penetrating or Bibby penetrating and dishing out). And the center just needs to rebound and play defense. (the way Mutombo is doing right now for us in Houston, although his numbers are just unreal right now so you can't expect that)

SAR (who still has a decent contract) and Artest are probably the easiest contracts to trade. Miller's contract just looks horrible and I have no idea how to deal with that monstrosity. (to get rid of that, you'll have to give away a damn good draft pick and maybe another decent player along with Miller, the way Boston got rid of LaFrentz). KT's contract sucks as well and I have no idea how to dump him either.

Also, if teams are willing to trade you inferior (and really inferior) talent for Miller, Bibby, or KT, you take it in a heartbeat. Dump salary like there's no tommorrow. Also, prey on teams with a lot of young talent. Teams like Boston and Portland are filled with really young players and might be suckered into taking a veteran here or there in exchange

 

[thedofd]

I've watched us try and "rebuild on the fly" and it's given me ulcers and more sleepless nights than I care to admit.

The identity of the Sacramento Kings left on Feb. 23, 2005 and hasn't been really seen since. Yes, there have been glimmers but they're nothing more than deja vu memories, and false ones at that.

At some point, just like with a beloved family pet who is dying, you have to be willing to pull the plug. I firmly believe the time has come. I love this team, but watching them struggle night after night and come so close is agonizing. They don't like it either, you know.

But some of the pieces that don't work together well -- specifically Bibby, Miller and Artest -- are the very players you'd trade on the fly. So, in that sense, you are "pulling the plug" on the current nucleus.

With the possible exception of Kevin Martin, everyone on this roster is in play. The difference between our perspective, if I understand you right, is that I'd prefer to deal the core pieces that don't fit together for established players rather than prospects and draft picks.

To use your analogy about a beloved family pet, true, at some point you pull the plug. But before that happens, I'd make a whole lot of trips to the vet to see if anything could be done.

Maybe you have different information, but I don't think Petrie has "gone to the vet" yet. I think he put together this team with the idea the parts would fit. Hopefully, it has become evident to him and the Maloofs that the don't, and his next step is to explore the possibility of the big trade.

Now, do things get better if you, say, trade Miller for a player or players of established value? Do you have to break up the Bibby-Artest fustercluck? Is there a team out there in the same boat as us, with good personnel who simply aren't good together?

If those trades aren't there, maybe you go the youth route. But I think you try some Interferon and chemo before you pull the plug.

 

[Bricklayer]

Losing is a downward spiral that builds momentum as it goes.

Only if you are too scared to do anything.

This is a sport which has a draft inverse to final position. Hence, the worse you get, the better draft pick you get. It is set up that way on purpose preceisely so that the worst teams have the best chance of landing the best players so that they won't be the worse teams. The whole league looks somehting like a lava lamp, with everybody's respective blobs sloating up to the top, losing bouyancy and coming down, then hitting bottom and bouncing back up again. Now if you're on that downward spiral the smart thing to do to PREVENT people from forgetting the days at the top is to do everything you can to accelerate the downward, and get back to the climbing already.

And along the way the same principles apply as they do at any other time -- you still need a bit of luck and a bit of skill. Those are the things that determine whether your stay at the bottom is a long one or a short bounce. But that's true no matter where you are. We are already losing. We are already hemmoraging fans and by all accounts seem on the verge of a great fan revolt here this spring that is going to empty the arena. It is high past time we take control of our own fate and try to direct this process and plan it out -- be masters of the process rather than victims of it, and aim to get this over with stat.

 

[Vlade4GM]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I think you're underestimating a lot of Kings fans who won't abandon the team simply because they're rebuilding.

And the idea of the Las Vegas Kings is pretty much beating a dead horse IMHO. Anaheim Kings? Maybe. Kansas City KIngs? Hey, could happen. They aren't going to move to Vegas, however, for a myriad of reasons but primarily because David Stern isn't going to allow it.

I'm not going to derail this thread into another discussion about the arena and the team moving because it's been done to death and, again IMHO, the Maloofs have done everything possible to show that they do NOT want to move the team.

The lack of calls on KHTK could be for a lot of reasons, including the lack of any new topic to discuss. How many different times can you call in and say the team lost because of poor free throw shooting or not enough defense?

Losing is a part of winning. I don't know of ANY team that hasn't lost on occasion. Sometimes you have to stop falling by hitting the bottom so you can begin to climb back up...

do you think anaheim is a real possibility if they move? three teams would be crowded.

 

[thedofd]

This is a sport which has a draft inverse to final position. Hence, the worse you get, the better draft pick you get.

I don't know the number offhand, Brick, but I seem to recall that the worst team, record-wise, has frequently come away with other than the No. 1 pick. That's where the luck you mentioned comes in.

 

[Cal-Kings]

Only if you are too scared to do anything.

This is a sport which has a draft inverse to final position. Hence, the worse you get, the better draft pick you get. It is set up that way on purpose preceisely so that the worst teams have the best chance of landing the best players so that they won't be the worse teams. The whole league looks somehting like a lava lamp, with everybody's respective blobs sloating up to the top, losing bouyancy and coming down, then hitting bottom and bouncing back up again. Now if you're on that downward spiral the smart thing to do to PREVENT people from forgetting the days at the top is to do everything you can to accelerate the downward, and get back to the climbing already.

And along the way the same principles apply as they do at any other time -- you still need a bit of luck and a bit of skill. Those are the things that determine whether your stay at the bottom is a long one or a short bounce. But that's true no matter where you are. We are already losing. We are already hemmoraging fans and by all accounts seem on the verge of a great fan revolt here this spring that is going to empty the arena. It is high past time we take control of our own fate and try to direct this process and plan it out -- be masters of the process rather than victims of it, and aim to get this over with stat.

I understand fully how the lottery works.

It's still only 1 player after all that losing. What has that done for the Charlotte Bobcats?

Winning is also more than just talent. It's a mindset. It takes confidence.

The Charlotte Bobcats have a lot of talent. They play hard with a ton of effort and barely lose. They are often up 2 or down 2 and still mostly lose. Why? Because they don't have the mindset, the confidence, that gets them the win.

Watching us play the last 6 games reminds me of the Charlotte Bobcats. Great effort but we get the "Deer in the headlights" look at the end of the game.

Personally, I think the coaching change is the cause. Not because of Muss, but any change in coaching changes the mindset. We look like we don't have any confidence in ourselves any longer. We don't know who we are and we don't know how to win.

Last season we were starting to forget how to win. Then 1 little trade to get Artest and the emotion of that kick-started this team to where we almost beat the Spurs. We became a different team entirely.

However, this season, the coaching change sent us back to ground zero and we are back to not knowing who we are nor how to win.

Would another trade help? I don't know.

But tossing in the towel, telling the vets that we don't intend to win by playing the kids, IMHO that sends shock waves of messages that can only mean bad things for a long time.

 

[Smills91]

I think you guys are overestimating what it takes to rebuild.

First, this team is FULL of role players. Not a single player on this team is a superstar or is capable of hoisting the team on his back and winning. Guys like Kobe, Lebron, DWade, T-Mac, etc.. are those kinds of players. This team has a bunch of role players and wannabe superstars (Artest ).

Second, I firmly believe that this team just needs that one player and maybe a couple of fixes. A guy like Durant gives this team an instant star who can just run the show. Oden gives this team a dominant low post presence but in this age of new rules that benefit perimiter players, I don't like the idea of building around post-players anymore.

So lets say they get a guy like Durant (who probably can play PF if he bulks up, he's 6-10 and still growing). I'll assume Bibby stays because he's sucking so much this year that he'll never be able to get that kind of money on the open market. So Bibby and Martin in the backcourt (which is rock solid in my opinion, as bad as Bibby has played) Dump Artest in the offseason if possible for either another SF or front court help. Durant would play the PF spot and the center spot just needs to be a big guy who can rebound and play defense. (Melvin Ely, Diop, Mikki Moore, Jamaal Magloire, Kurt Thomas, or get lucky and trade or draft)

This team needs that one big player and then complimentary guys with defined roles. Bibby needs to stop playing hero. This won't be his team anymore and he'll be the point guard. Kevin Martin is your 2nd scorer who'll have plenty of opportunities. Franchise player gets the bulk of scoring opportunities. The SF should be able hit 3s (which he'll get off of kickouts from the franchise guy penetrating or Bibby penetrating and dishing out). And the center just needs to rebound and play defense. (the way Mutombo is doing right now for us in Houston, although his numbers are just unreal right now so you can't expect that)

SAR (who still has a decent contract) and Artest are probably the easiest contracts to trade. Miller's contract just looks horrible and I have no idea how to deal with that monstrosity. (to get rid of that, you'll have to give away a damn good draft pick and maybe another decent player along with Miller, the way Boston got rid of LaFrentz). KT's contract sucks as well and I have no idea how to dump him either.

Also, if teams are willing to trade you inferior (and really inferior) talent for Miller, Bibby, or KT, you take it in a heartbeat. Dump salary like there's no tommorrow. Also, prey on teams with a lot of young talent. Teams like Boston and Portland are filled with really young players and might be suckered into taking a veteran here or there in exchange

I agree the team that ends up with Durant will be better off in the long run than the team that gets Oden.

 

[kupman]

Of course you do...a tactical retreat is always part of the arseanl if you're smart.

This is the reason that I predict the Hawks will win 5 titles in row.....starting with next year of course.

 

[kupman]

You know, with all this talk about how tanking is a good idea, it got me thinking - if 1 tank is good, 5 must be great.

I suggest that we tank the next 5 seasons so that in the 2011-2012 we will be starting 5 lottery picks.

We would almost be guaranteed a title.

 

[nbrans]

I agree that a losing mindset can be tough to shake, which is why I don't think there are many people here advocating a strategy that lands us to permanent lottery land. It can be pervasive and poisonous, and it's something to be feared.

At the same time, a "winning" mindset is only as strong as the players who have that mindset. We've been seeing that mindset erode right along with the players who had the skills and chemistry to make this team great. What players who are left from the winning days were lesser cogs -- how can we expect the winning mindset to endure such radical personnel change?? I don't blame management, as some do -- time marches on, nothing last's forever, those winning players were getting old, etc. etc. It was the natural progression. But it's not not like the Kings' winning mindset is something you just put on, like a jersey, or something you just breath in because you walk into Arco. You have to earn that mindset through chemistry, through believing, through a top-down organizational will to win. There's no one left from the good old days.

This is a talented team, and it's very clear that whatever vestige of a winning mindset has been gone for a while. The Artest trade provided a brief honeymoon period, but they weren't fooling anyone. This team did not almost beat the Spurs. That's a ludicrous suggestion. They put up a good show while getting stomped. Not exactly the stuff winning mindsets are made of.

The only way this team is going to get a winning mindset back is to get players who can win. I don't think it's necessary to blow up the entire team and trade everyone for 25 cents on the dollar. Just a few targeted trades, a dip into the free agency market, and, yes, losing enough to get this team a great draft pick this year.

Hoping the team has an off-year is not the same thing as hoping the team is bad forever. With the right trades, with some luck in the lottery and key free agent acquisitions, this offseason has the potential to be a "jackpot" type of year -- one bad year and we're back on the road to recovery. But part of that jackpot strategy is that this year needs to be as bad as possible. So yeah, I'm hoping the team keeps losing.

 

[supamari0]

You know, with all this talk about how tanking is a good idea, it got me thinking - if 1 tank is good, 5 must be great.

I suggest that we tank the next 5 seasons so that in the 2011-2012 we will be starting 5 lottery picks.

We would almost be guaranteed a title.

Actually, not really for two reasons.

1. Your team needs time together to develop chemistry. You can't just keep breaking it apart for lottery picks.

2. The reason why people say tank this year is because the draft is loaded. Oden, Durant and Wright are genuine superstars. This isn't like the draft with Andrew Bogut as the #1 pick. This is a rare occurance for a draft to be so loaded like this. You don't get a chance to draft superstars like this very often.

 

[fnordius]

Do you have to break up the Bibby-Artest fustercluck?

Ah. I think that explains the lack of productivity by our hens. They weren't oodling, they were fusterclucking.

Yes, by all means, blow it up if we can. The only challenge I see is that there are about 10 other teams who seem bent on doing the same this year, and the demand for veteran roleplayers is at an all-time low. But let's give it our best shot.

 

[kupman]

2. The reason why people say tank this year is because the draft is loaded. Oden, Durant and Wright are genuine superstars. This isn't like the draft with Andrew Bogut as the #1 pick. This is a rare occurance for a draft to be so loaded like this. You don't get a chance to draft superstars like this very often.

Yeah, I was just trying to decide if Oden is going to better or worse than Sam Bowie. Better or worse than Laettner? Better or worse than Ralph Sampson?

I was also trying to decide if Durant is going to be better or worse than Derrick Coleman.


note: to all you 'pro-tankers' - be very careful what you wish for.

I know, I know this draft is different... yada yada.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Yeah, I was just trying to decide if Oden is going to better or worse than Sam Bowie. Better or worse than Laettner? Better or worse than Ralph Sampson?

I was also trying to decide if Durant is going to be better or worse than Derrick Coleman.


note: to all you 'pro-tankers' - be very careful what you wish for.

I know, I know this draft is different... yada yada.

dude, you offer no substance. explain how durant and oden even compare to those busts.

it's easy to be skeptical of everything, you're not going to get any respect if you don't offer anything in return.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Yeah, I was just trying to decide if Oden is going to better or worse than Sam Bowie. Better or worse than Laettner? Better or worse than Ralph Sampson?

I was also trying to decide if Durant is going to be better or worse than Derrick Coleman.


note: to all you 'pro-tankers' - be very careful what you wish for.

I know, I know this draft is different... yada yada.

Oden could be the next Sam Bowie. He has a better chance of being the next Patrick Ewing. Durant could be Coleman, or he could also be Tmac. It's a chance you HAVE to take because what we have now is not working.

We could be the next Atlanta Hawks. Or the next Miami Heat. I say take that shot.

 

[Bricklayer]

note: to all you 'pro-tankers' - be very careful what you wish for.

Note: to all those too scared to tank, I know what it is you wish for, and its not possible or practical. Therefore, you tank. The world doesn't always work the way you want it to, and there is a reason for the phrase nothing ventured nothing gained.

 

[kupman]

dude, you offer no substance. explain how durant and oden even compare to those busts.

it's easy to be skeptical of everything, you're not going to get any respect if you don't offer anything in return.

dude - let me spell it out then.

Bowie, Sampson and Laettner were the biggest things of their day. People were crazy excited for them.....the difference is that they actually had great college careers. Oden has does next to nothing to date. He is just a physical specimen.....so were many others.

Don't get me wrong. He may end up to be great, but he may not. Getting excited about a draft spot shows a lack of historical appeciation. You never know how good a draft is until about 10 years after it has happened.

 

[Vlade4GM]

dude - let me spell it out then.

Bowie, Sampson and Laettner were the biggest things of their day. People were crazy excited for them.....the difference is that they actually had great college careers. Oden has does next to nothing to date. He is just a physical specimen.....so were many others.

Don't get me wrong. He may end up to be great, but he may not. Getting excited about a draft spot shows a lack of historical appeciation. You never know how good a draft is until about 10 years after it has happened.

we can play the hype vs results game all day, you're still comparing two completely different players to each other.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Well, where we are now really isn't working for me. (and we all know, it's really all about me)
Seriously, we have nothing to lose at this point. We have a bunch of pieces that don't fit, no go to guy, no identity and no hope. We are going nowhere with the team we have now. The pieces we have to move aren't going to garner us a SuperStar, but the draft MIGHT. I'm willing to move the guys we have, any of them except Kevin, in any combination, to build a good team, one that fits together, and hope that, for once, we get a lucky break with the ping pong balls, and get a piece that will, eventually, make us a GREAT team I've got nothing left to hope for at this point.

 

[chelle]

At this point, I, obviously, am unhappy with the make-up of the team. There needs to be MAJOR changes via trades, free agents, and the draft. It makes perfect sense that we would all want a high draft pick - myself included. I just cannot watch them lose on purpose, which is my definition of tanking. Yes, I want us to have a great draft pick. I just want the players we have now to give their all anf try to win. Face it - we will still have a good draft pick. They are not built for success at this point.

WAIT- maybe THIS was the "master plan" all along!! We were designed to be bad this year for the draft after all! See, they knew what they were doing!!!!

 

[supamari0]

dude - let me spell it out then.

Bowie, Sampson and Laettner were the biggest things of their day. People were crazy excited for them.....the difference is that they actually had great college careers. Oden has does next to nothing to date. He is just a physical specimen.....so were many others.

Don't get me wrong. He may end up to be great, but he may not. Getting excited about a draft spot shows a lack of historical appeciation. You never know how good a draft is until about 10 years after it has happened.

Bowie and Sampson went down to injuries, not because they couldn't play. Sampson even proved he could play before his knees fell apart.

As for your criticism of Oden, that's utter nonsense. Using that logic, then teams should never get excited about high school players because they haven't proven anything. The hype surrounding LeBron was legit. He was the most dominating high school player to that point. Oden is the same way now. He utterly dominated high school in a fashion that no other player has since LeBron. And considering that he's playing with one hand right now (that too his left hand), I'm pretty damn impressed with him so far. I like Durant more, but Oden has played well.

Players are never a sure thing but guys like Oden are as close as you can get. He's 18 and he looks gigantic and most importantly he's got a good head and is smart. You won't find a draft like this for a long time so take advantage of it.

 

[migibizzle]

We all have to face it if management does not throw out a big trade dumping some of our important vets, we are not in tank mode. And seeing the luck the Kings have we will go on a winning streak at the end of the season in a futile effort to get into the playoffs. Come no where near the 8th seed and take ouselfs out of lottery contention. That is my nightmare and knowing our luck it will probably happen.

 

[kupman]

I am going to try and make this my last post on the topic.

It is a very sad day to me when 70-75% of the votes on this board are excited to go the lottery. The more ping pong balls we have the better is the mentality. To add insult to injury, we have the mods leading the parade.

That's right - the mods of Kingsfan.com are hoping for loses to add more ping pong balls.

It is a loser mentality of which I want no part.

 

[Gary]

I think the current roster wins 33-37, hopefully we go young, make trades, get cap room, and end up with 23-25 wins.

Excellent take.

Seriously I would like to keep Bibby for another year, keep Salmons, Martin, and Artest. I would like to see what we can get from Garcia, Douby, Price, and Williams.

Maybe trade Miller for a mid/high 20s 1st round pick (to a team with multiple 1st rounders). Draft about 3-7 and go big, than draft in the 20s a point guard to replace Bibby. Bench him one year behind Bibby until his contract is up. Play the big guy at Center, or behind SAR next year. Keep Corliss in here as a mentor/player.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I am going to try and make this my last post on the topic.

It is a very sad day to me when 70-75% of the votes on this board are excited to go the lottery. The more ping pong balls we have the better is the mentality. To add insult to injury, we have the mods leading the parade.

That's right - the mods of Kingsfan.com are hoping for loses to add more ping pong balls.

It is a loser mentality of which I want no part.

i guess everything is really that black and white with you.

 

[fnordius]

It is a very sad day to me when 70-75% of the votes on this board are excited to go the lottery.

Hey, if I couldn't do that, I never, ever would have survived '85-'95.

 

[Elise10]

I am going to try and make this my last post on the topic.

It is a very sad day to me when 70-75% of the votes on this board are excited to go the lottery. The more ping pong balls we have the better is the mentality. To add insult to injury, we have the mods leading the parade.

That's right - the mods of Kingsfan.com are hoping for loses to add more ping pong balls.

It is a loser mentality of which I want no part.

Sorry you feel that way

I haven't jumped on the "Tank" so to speak but looking at the future (the draft) may just be the best we can do at this point.