Is Buddy uncoachable? (Moved from Fox thread)
- Thread starter mac
- Start date
Buddy works hard, he was so professional and busted his butt before his contract negotiation. I am actually more worried about his attitude, his ego.. it is starting to reflect in his play.. The whole "trust issues" rant to the media was a huge eye opener. I felt like he should have been fined for those statements.
Keeping Both will be difficult. I have a feeling some team is going to offer something crazy for Bogi. Kings won't match. Especially, with Bagley and Fox extensions coming up. I would rather trade Buddy in the Summer and keep Bogi. But. Who knows with this front office.
Both are great shooters. but not game changers. So, whatever.
Both are great shooters. but not game changers. So, whatever.
The degree to which Buddy is coachable is one thing. Whether he is uncoachable or not is another. When we talk about uncoachable players one would be hard pressed to find one in NBA history. Allen Iverson and Steve Francis come to mind as players who were notoriously difficult to coach. To claim that Hield is uncoachable requires reaching, thus it is probably not true.
Also funny how quickly people forget how bad Bogi was last season, but are not ready to extend the same patience with Hield in a shooting slump. His health/ability to play minutes is also something that is somewhat undervalued.
For the record, Fox is averaging 3+ TOs a game compared with Buddy's 2+. And while I by no means am pretending that Buddy is a great defender, the amount of hyperbole is quite ridiculous. If you scrutinized any other wing player as much you'd find that getting blown by in the NBA is not that uncommon.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and I get that fans are emotional creatures. It's just sad to see the lack of rationality around these parts nowadays.
For the record, Fox is averaging 3+ TOs a game compared with Buddy's 2+. And while I by no means am pretending that Buddy is a great defender, the amount of hyperbole is quite ridiculous. If you scrutinized any other wing player as much you'd find that getting blown by in the NBA is not that uncommon.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and I get that fans are emotional creatures. It's just sad to see the lack of rationality around these parts nowadays.
Bogi was playing out of position as a SG/SF and IMO out of his ideal role for his skillset. He needs the ball to be effective and initiate the offense. He's much better off the bench next to a defensive oriented guy like CoJo. He's not a SF and shouldn't have tried to be put there and next to Fox and Buddy. Also many suspected he was not 100% for much of the season.
Well yes but my point is that being 100% in itself is something that should be valued. If you're going to be hurt or not 100% year in and year out that counts against you. Also, it's clear from your post that not everyone can even agree what is best for the team - you say Bogi should come off the bench with the ball in his hands, while others want him starting in place of Hield. By all accounts and evidence of repetition, Hield is also being asked to do things he may not be good at (for now) - but many are not extending the same grace you have extended Bogi in your post. Keep in mind as well that Buddy is only in the middle of his 4th year - he is by no means a finished product just because he signed an extension.
Which brings me to my underlying point - calls for Hield to be traded, or that he's only as good as Francisco Garcia are rash, and are driven not by his actual performance on the court but by perceived notions and anger at comments that he has made (comments I might add, which are not too different from those made across the league or by other beloved Kings players of old). I too get frustrated with him, and I do think he needs to mature, but he would not be the first player in a long line of Kings players that you could say that about.
Which brings me to my underlying point - calls for Hield to be traded, or that he's only as good as Francisco Garcia are rash, and are driven not by his actual performance on the court but by perceived notions and anger at comments that he has made (comments I might add, which are not too different from those made across the league or by other beloved Kings players of old). I too get frustrated with him, and I do think he needs to mature, but he would not be the first player in a long line of Kings players that you could say that about.
I think a lot of the ire surrounding Buddy has to do with his contract. When he was a bargain, we could more easily forgive his flaws and cheer his strengths, because he wasnt really hurting anything team-wise. Now that he's sucking up the sizeable funds we will no longer have to attract/retain better players, we start to resent those flaws and demand those strengths because otherwise he's costing us part of our future. To Buddy its probably confusing...after all, he's the same guy. But expectations have shifted as the stakes of his production got higher
Well yes but that's inevitable with any player - like I said I think the issue is we haven't actually signed or extended an expensive player aside from Cousins in years; we've forgotten what it's like to have to pay players. Sure you can always look outside and point to one specific guy who seems like a better deal, but the reality is he is not on the team and probably wouldn't have been at that price level.
Again, we're what - 40 games in? If mid next season Buddy is still in a shooting slump and playing bad D then by all means start to call it a bad contract and whatnot but it's way too early for that now.
Again, we're what - 40 games in? If mid next season Buddy is still in a shooting slump and playing bad D then by all means start to call it a bad contract and whatnot but it's way too early for that now.
For the record, I don't hate Buddy or wish him anything other than success. I think maybe trading him might humble him a bit more than he thinks he is at this very moment.
As it stand now, in order for this to turn around, he's going to have to mentally get much much stronger and vastly more mature. He may have work ethic on the court, but now he needs to find a way to translate that over to his mental game. If it doesn't happen anywhere else and he remains here, then I hope and pray he figures it out while he's here.
He needs to work with what he's got and good at now, then what he's not good at, work on during the offseason, not live games...
As it stand now, in order for this to turn around, he's going to have to mentally get much much stronger and vastly more mature. He may have work ethic on the court, but now he needs to find a way to translate that over to his mental game. If it doesn't happen anywhere else and he remains here, then I hope and pray he figures it out while he's here.
He needs to work with what he's got and good at now, then what he's not good at, work on during the offseason, not live games...
The reality is that if the coaching staff is asking him to do something, he has to work on it during the games (as well as off-season). My reasoning that it is at least partially coaching staff-directed is simple - it doesn't make sense to have him bringing the ball up as much as he has been otherwise. If it's such a detriment and the coaches don't want it we would not see it that much, plain and simple. Nothing to do with PT, and it's as simple as giving the ball to Fox/CoJo instead of Hield to initiate the offense, but we aren't seeing that.
I agree with what you said about his mental game/resilience needing to get better, but I'm far from ready to give up on him.
ALSO (experts correct me if I'm wrong) - while Buddy has signed a big extension he is technically not getting paid that money for this season and is still on his rookie deal. So to be pedantic, we are not paying him a gabillion dollars for his current performance. Correct me if I'm mistaken about this.
I agree with what you said about his mental game/resilience needing to get better, but I'm far from ready to give up on him.
ALSO (experts correct me if I'm wrong) - while Buddy has signed a big extension he is technically not getting paid that money for this season and is still on his rookie deal. So to be pedantic, we are not paying him a gabillion dollars for his current performance. Correct me if I'm mistaken about this.
Buddy ranks 302nd in assist to turnover ratio in the NBA. ( https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=GP&dir=-1). He's tied with Ben McLemore. Stop with craziness about him being anything other than a fumbler-stumbler-bumbler with the basketball. And that's not the worst of it. When Buddy throws a pass you need Jerry Rice out there to receive it. He rarely, and I mean rarely ever hits the receiver on the money. The guy catching the ball is reaching down up over all over the freaking place and by the time he gets his balance from catching a Hield Hail Mary he's missed out on the opportunity to make a shot or make a play in space.
I don't even want to know how many layups he's missed this year or where he ranks on that hit parade. It's like he's been been give carte blanche to do all the forced fast break layup he wants: one on two, one on three, one on four, and yes, last night it was one on freaking FIVE. Buddy, the guy with the great speed, jumping and dribbling ability
is killing the Kings on these fast break layup "opportunities." You can see from a mile away that he's going to get his shot blocked or missed. When he makes one it's like hitting the lottery. Yes, he made ONE! Yippee! Let's all celebrate!
I don't even want to know how many layups he's missed this year or where he ranks on that hit parade. It's like he's been been give carte blanche to do all the forced fast break layup he wants: one on two, one on three, one on four, and yes, last night it was one on freaking FIVE. Buddy, the guy with the great speed, jumping and dribbling ability
is killing the Kings on these fast break layup "opportunities." You can see from a mile away that he's going to get his shot blocked or missed. When he makes one it's like hitting the lottery. Yes, he made ONE! Yippee! Let's all celebrate!
Buddy ranks 302nd in assist to turnover ratio in the NBA. ( https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=GP&dir=-1). He's tied with Ben McLemore. Stop with craziness about him being anything other than a fumbler-stumbler-bumbler with the basketball. And that's not the worst of it. When Buddy throws a pass you need Jerry Rice out there to receive it. He rarely, and I mean rarely ever hits the receiver on the money. The guy catching the ball is reaching down up over all over the freaking place and by the time he gets his balance from catching a Hield Hail Mary he's missed out on the opportunity to make a shot or make a play in space.
I don't even want to know how many layups he's missed this year or where he ranks on that hit parade. It's like he's been been give carte blanche to do all the forced fast break layup he wants: one on two, one on three, one on four, and yes, last night it was one on freaking FIVE. Buddy, the guy with the great speed, jumping and dribbling ability is killing the Kings on these fast break layup "opportunities." You can see from a mile away that he's going to get his shot blocked or missed. When he makes one it's like hitting the lottery. Yes, he made ONE! Yippee! Let's all celebrate!
I don't even want to know how many layups he's missed this year or where he ranks on that hit parade. It's like he's been been give carte blanche to do all the forced fast break layup he wants: one on two, one on three, one on four, and yes, last night it was one on freaking FIVE. Buddy, the guy with the great speed, jumping and dribbling ability
is killing the Kings on these fast break layup "opportunities." You can see from a mile away that he's going to get his shot blocked or missed. When he makes one it's like hitting the lottery. Yes, he made ONE! Yippee! Let's all celebrate!
...Just to give some examples - (stats from NBA.com) - It's been said Buddy doesn't care about others, only will make the pass if it leads to an assist for him, never a hockey assist. Well, Buddy is second on the team in secondary assists. He is middle of the pack on the team in ast to pass% - ahead of Barnes and Ariza and by no means close to worst for guards/forwards. Layups - his %less than 5ft is just behind Fox and ahead of Barnes, Bogi, CoJo etc. His AST/TO is pretty bad, but also not significantly worse than it was last season despite a higher USG rate. For all the talk of his # of TOs, he's actually tied in TO ratio (TOs per 100 possessions) with Bogi this season and a fair bit better than Fox.
Do these stats show Buddy is a superstar? No. But they also show he's not as bad as some are making him out to be on a nightly basis, and we haven't even talked about the stuff he's SUPPOSED to do well in on all the offensive end. He's also our leading scorer, behind only Bogi and Bjelica in 3P% despite taking 3-5 more attempts than them, 4th in rebounds behind Holmes, Bagley (doesn't really count) and Bjelica, has played every game and is averaging the second highest minutes at 34 behind only Barnes. To say there's such a clear case that we should trade him or bench him for Bogi, or to blame him primarily for the teams struggles is simply untrue and unfair.
This will probably be the last time I bother looking up the stats because I know other posters will just ignore them, disregard them and continue with their hyperbole and scapegoating, or counter with some sarcastic strawman about how Buddy is the greatest ever. But can't say I didn't try.
Last edited by a moderator:
AST/TO ratio isn't a good way to compare players that have completely different roles. Buddy should never be compared to Fox when it comes to that stat. Buddy plays off the ball way more often than not. Fox almost always has the ball in his hands. Buddy's turnover numbers are bad despite not even having that many chances to turn it over while Fox has more of a chance to turn it over than any player on the team because he runs the offense. Is there a way to find out the turnover ratio to amount of time the ball is in the players hands? That would be more of a comparable stat.
Buddy absolutely has to play offensively as well as he did last year to warrant his contract. He can't just be "ok" on offense because his defense is always a big liability. If last year was a flash in the pan offensively, then the Kings made a huge mistake in giving him that contract. If his offense this year is due to him being used incorrectly, then Walton needs to pull his head out of his you know what. Either way Buddy should be our second best player and he's far from it right now. Your second best player shouldn't be your worst starter many a game and he has been this year. It's concerning. Shooting can be streaky but defense isn't streaky. No one expects Buddy to be able to stay in front of Westbrook on an island but don't let these joe schmoes with one foot in the G League straight line drive you or backdoor cut you because you aren't paying attention. Harden can get away with it because of everything else he brings. Buddy doesn't bring enough on even his best days to allow that kind of crap.
Buddy absolutely has to play offensively as well as he did last year to warrant his contract. He can't just be "ok" on offense because his defense is always a big liability. If last year was a flash in the pan offensively, then the Kings made a huge mistake in giving him that contract. If his offense this year is due to him being used incorrectly, then Walton needs to pull his head out of his you know what. Either way Buddy should be our second best player and he's far from it right now. Your second best player shouldn't be your worst starter many a game and he has been this year. It's concerning. Shooting can be streaky but defense isn't streaky. No one expects Buddy to be able to stay in front of Westbrook on an island but don't let these joe schmoes with one foot in the G League straight line drive you or backdoor cut you because you aren't paying attention. Harden can get away with it because of everything else he brings. Buddy doesn't bring enough on even his best days to allow that kind of crap.
But it's ok to use that metric to compare Buddy and McLemore? If you've been watching the games you would know that for a large part of the season Buddy has been our primary playmaker and he has very much had a chance to turn the ball over. Who has been bringing the ball up? Who has been initiating the plays and running pick and roll with Fox out? I mean.. that's one of the biggest complaints I hear around here!
Not a perfect metric but:
McLemore averages 1.36 seconds per touch Vs Hield's 3.42 (Fox 5.14). Dribbles per touch McLemore 0.55, Hield 2.87 (Fox 4.87).
Not sure if there's an available metric that tracks "running the offense" or initiating it, being the dribbler in PnR etc. but that would be interesting to look at.
McLemore averages 1.36 seconds per touch Vs Hield's 3.42 (Fox 5.14). Dribbles per touch McLemore 0.55, Hield 2.87 (Fox 4.87).
Not sure if there's an available metric that tracks "running the offense" or initiating it, being the dribbler in PnR etc. but that would be interesting to look at.
Buddy needs to have a three dribble limit on his offense. I don't have the means to get these stats (If someone out there does, I'd love to see them), but my belief is that you would see his highest offensive efficiency when he shoots off the catch and then his efficiency would degrade for every dribble he takes thereafter. The graph would slop down from left to right for every dribble taken . Stop with the dribble show. Stop trying to be Kobe. Just be what you are - a player who can be very efficient with his shot if he 1) has space, 2) has balance and 3) catches off the pass. Everything else is gravy. This isn't a boy's camp for dribble improvement. This is the NBA. Know your role. Do your role. Play defense as much as much as you possibly can. If he does that, he's the perfect 6th man for this team.