Is Buddy uncoachable? (Moved from Fox thread)

#1
I think this is excellent analysis, and thanks for juxtaposing Luka without being pedantic. I would like to "yes, and" the above. I think we do see the future leader in Fox. Part of Carmichael Dave's analysis yesterday was talking about how guys need to be a more commanding presence, and not just go home and play video games. That applies to a lot of (maybe all) our young guys, but I'm positive he meant Fox.

I think Shump was the buffer last year. He was able to deliver criticism in a joking manner. Fox is very direct. I think he expects other professionals to do the things they need to do, and to be focused on winning. I think that, right now, he struggles with addressing older players that do not adhere to that. Buddy, I think, is a problem. Buddy works hard, but is not super coachable, and he's a convivial talker who will mope when criticized.
Without derailing the Fox thread, why do you say Buddy is not coachable when everything his coaches have said has been the opposite?
 
#2
Without derailing the Fox thread, why do you say Buddy is not coachable when everything his coaches have said has been the opposite?
I will keep it on track. I think Buddy is a hard personality to lead. Buddy is a very hard worker (which is what his coaches praise), but I think he only works on the things he wants to--which is where the coach ability issue comes into play. I don't think Buddy wants to work on defense--he has stated he doesn't think it's very important. He'll focus on it, reluctantly, because to do otherwise will cost him playing time, and ultimately, money. He has an effervescent personality, but is easily offended when criticized and prone to moping/lashing out. That's a tough personality to corral for a younger player intent on winning the big prizes. As a leader, you cannot impugn Buddy's work ethic. He probably works harder than you...only on the stuff he cares about, but still. If you criticize him publically, he will lash out--but if you let his lapses go unchecked save for private conversations, then other less talented players will get upset about perceived favoritism.

A guy like MJ or Kobe would tell Buddy to shut up and play ball (and I have a 2-piece for you if you have anything else to whine about), but that's not Fox. This is akin to the Richard Jefferson situation with Timmy in San Antonio. Everybody likes each other, but the loquacious one just can't take the hint. BTW, Joerger had a complicated relationship with Buddy. Not all coaches are effusive in their praise 100% of the time.
 
#3
I will keep it on track. I think Buddy is a hard personality to lead. Buddy is a very hard worker (which is what his coaches praise), but I think he only works on the things he wants to--which is where the coach ability issue comes into play. I don't think Buddy wants to work on defense--he has stated he doesn't think it's very important. He'll focus on it, reluctantly, because to do otherwise will cost him playing time, and ultimately, money. He has an effervescent personality, but is easily offended when criticized and prone to moping/lashing out. That's a tough personality to corral for a younger player intent on winning the big prizes. As a leader, you cannot impugn Buddy's work ethic. He probably works harder than you...only on the stuff he cares about, but still. If you criticize him publically, he will lash out--but if you let his lapses go unchecked save for private conversations, then other less talented players will get upset about perceived favoritism.

A guy like MJ or Kobe would tell Buddy to shut up and play ball (and I have a 2-piece for you if you have anything else to whine about), but that's not Fox. This is akin to the Richard Jefferson situation with Timmy in San Antonio. Everybody likes each other, but the loquacious one just can't take the hint. BTW, Joerger had a complicated relationship with Buddy. Not all coaches are effusive in their praise 100% of the time.
Well I would argue that as long as the player does focus on it, reluctantly or not, that's being coachable. And let's be real - all players are working for playing time and money. You can't question that Buddy loves to play ball, so it's not quite the WCS Bagz season scenario either.

From 6:40



From 1:30
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#4
MOD NOTE: Anytime you start a post with "I don't want to derail the thread,,," you know you're gonna derail the thread. ;) Since this is a relevant and decidedly different discussion than the one on Fox, it's been split out.
 
#5
I’ve wondered for some time now if Buddy is “coachable.” It was Bogi that got him to think of himself as more than just a shooter, and that paid dividends.
But today’s Buddy is still a challenge for the Kings’ success. When he touches the ball, the ball movement stops 80% of the time. He doesn’t play a good team game. He continues to make twice as many costly mistakes as his teammates. And he’s stubborn as a mule with no intention of changing. Why change when you’re already GREAT?
That makes him available in my book.
 
#6
I don't think this is appropriate to break out, because the original question is not really about Buddy's coach ability, per se. The question is, how does Fox command the team and manage a personality like Buddy's...which is very specific to whether or not we all think Fox is on track as a franchise PG. If Fox is on track, then we will see him have more direct interactions with Buddy when Buddy experiences his mental lapses (be it getting beat back door for the 4th time in a game, throwing a bad one-handed pass, or dribbling aimlessly for 9 seconds before chucking a step-back 19-footer). How Buddy reacts to that will have a bearing on Buddy's long term future with the team, but the gist of the original thread was a question as to whether we think we are going to see that leadership aspect from Fox on schedule.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#7
I don't think this is appropriate to break out, because the original question is not really about Buddy's coach ability, per se. The question is, how does Fox command the team and manage a personality like Buddy's...which is very specific to whether or not we all think Fox is on track as a franchise PG. If Fox is on track, then we will see him have more direct interactions with Buddy when Buddy experiences his mental lapses (be it getting beat back door for the 4th time in a game, throwing a bad one-handed pass, or dribbling aimlessly for 9 seconds before chucking a step-back 19-footer). How Buddy reacts to that will have a bearing on Buddy's long term future with the team, but the gist of the original thread was a question as to whether we think we are going to see that leadership aspect from Fox on schedule.
Having seen how these things go, I'm going to leave the two points separately. This isn't the only place I've seen where "coachability" and "Buddy" are being mentioned in the same breath. Whether Fox is the PG or not, it remains a valid question.
 
#8
I've seen multiple occasions where Buddy starts yelling something out during a stoppage and other teammates just smile or roll their eyes.
He seems like one of those motivational hard working people.with good intentions but poor execution.
 
#9
Having seen how these things go, I'm going to leave the two points separately. This isn't the only place I've seen where "coachability" and "Buddy" are being mentioned in the same breath. Whether Fox is the PG or not, it remains a valid question.
Thanks
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#11
It depends on what you mean by coachable. If you mean, does he completely ignore coaches instructions, my guess is, no, he probably does listen to his coaches. To what degree he tries to implement their instruction is an open question. He may be trying to do what coach says, but he doesn't have the ability to execute what they want. It's tough to figure out the "why" on Buddy. What I look at is what he actually does on the floor, and he continually can't keep his man from driving on straight-line drives, he goes under screens and gets lost in the shuffle far too often, he takes poor shots far too often, dribbles with no purpose far too often, and just dribbles far too much for his own good. He may be coachable; he may listen to his coaches and try to do what they say. I just don't think he's improvable, at least not improvable enough to get you to a good starting SG in this league.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#12
It depends on what you mean by coachable. If you mean, does he completely ignore coaches instructions, my guess is, no, he probably does listen to his coaches. To what degree he tries to implement their instruction is an open question. He may be trying to do what coach says, but he doesn't have the ability to execute what they want. It's tough to figure out the "why" on Buddy. What I look at is what he actually does on the floor, and he continually can't keep his man from driving on straight-line drives, he goes under screens and gets lost in the shuffle far too often, he takes poor shots far too often, dribbles with no purpose far too often, and just dribbles far too much for his own good. He may be coachable; he may listen to his coaches and try to do what they say. I just don't think he's improvable, at least not improvable enough to get you to a good starting SG in this league.
While that all makes sense, I think there's a more rudimentary problem. I think he listens but I don't think he hears.
 
#13
I thought this was an interesting quote from Buddy from an article on The Athletic. He is speaking about Fox obviously, but I think it shows that Buddy knows his place on the team.

“That’s what he has to bring to the table for us to be great,” said guard Buddy Hield. “His effort on defense, like I said, he’s our best player. He can make plays on the defensive end, him pushing the tempo, pushing the pace and hitting guys, attacking and putting pressure on guys, it’s fun and it’s good for us to see because it builds confidence. He’s a helluva talent, man. He just has to bring that energy every night.”

Excerpt from Jason Jones article from the Athletic
https://theathletic.com/
 
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#14
Yes, he’s coachable. But he’s also hopeless.

I think it’s part wiring, part his own natural learning curve, and part his own work ethic hurting his ability to digest feedback.

1. I have been and always will believe that you can’t alter wiring. Buddy will always look for his shot first, second, and third and it’ll never change. He’ll hold onto to the ball because an assist is primary only—there is no hockey assist in his world, because he wouldn’t be directly involved. These are things that are byproducts of a player who spent the majority of his youth hooping alone, taking thousands of shots alone. There is only one hero in his games—him. He scores or he makes the primary assist. No one else. We see this often when he’s dribbling in circles around a black hole before heaving a last minute shot. And it won’t change.

2. Some people are fast learners, some are not. Where it takes Fox one mistake to correct it, it takes Buddy 500. That will never change. See Ben or Throb as examples.

3. His work ethic hinders his ability to receive criticism. Buddy is constantly guilty of over rotating & getting sucked into plays while leaving his man open. In his mind, he’s helping. So when he gets checked by a teammate or Walton, as we see often, he disregards it. How can he be wrong when he’s hustling 110% of the time. He is the ultimate embodiment of working hard vs working smart.

He is our JR Smith. The sooner he’s traded, the better.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#16
While that all makes sense, I think there's a more rudimentary problem. I think he listens but I don't think he hears.
That could very well be the case. Those kind of guys need a two-by-four to get their attention. Or, likes Christie has said, the guys that are "hoopers" who can't/won't learn how to play basketball are the guys who get traded from one team to another.
 
#17
Yes, he’s coachable. But he’s also hopeless.

I think it’s part wiring, part his own natural learning curve, and part his own work ethic hurting his ability to digest feedback.

1. I have been and always will believe that you can’t alter wiring. Buddy will always look for his shot first, second, and third and it’ll never change. He’ll hold onto to the ball because an assist is primary only—there is no hockey assist in his world, because he wouldn’t be directly involved. These are things that are byproducts of a player who spent the majority of his youth hooping alone, taking thousands of shots alone. There is only one hero in his games—him. He scores or he makes the primary assist. No one else. We see this often when he’s dribbling in circles around a black hole before heaving a last minute shot. And it won’t change.

2. Some people are fast learners, some are not. Where it takes Fox one mistake to correct it, it takes Buddy 500. That will never change. See Ben or Throb as examples.

3. His work ethic hinders his ability to receive criticism. Buddy is constantly guilty of over rotating & getting sucked into plays while leaving his man open. In his mind, he’s helping. So when he gets checked by a teammate or Walton, as we see often, he disregards it. How can he be wrong when he’s hustling 110% of the time. He is the ultimate embodiment of working hard vs working smart.

He is our JR Smith. The sooner he’s traded, the better.
I said this earlier in the season, I'll say it again. If/when this happens I want you to remember what you wished for.

Kings fans: our GM is terrible, such bad draft picks, we lack talent

Also Kings fans: let's trade any decent player we have on our team and offer them all less than $20MM/yr because that's so much money!
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#18
I said this earlier in the season, I'll say it again. If/when this happens I want you to remember what you wished for.

Kings fans: our GM is terrible, such bad draft picks, we lack talent

Also Kings fans: let's trade any decent player we have on our team and offer them all less than $20MM/yr because that's so much money!
Also Kings fans the second the guy they were calling for to be traded turns out to be good: WHY DID WE TRADE THIS GUY?!!!!!!
 
#19
I have concluded that Buddy is a skilled role player that gets into trouble when he tries to play a complete game as a starter.
When he gave up the 4 point play I was talking to the tv.
The analogy that comes to mind is when people get promoted beyond their abilities in a business organization the trouble starts.
 
#20
I said this earlier in the season, I'll say it again. If/when this happens I want you to remember what you wished for.

Kings fans: our GM is terrible, such bad draft picks, we lack talent

Also Kings fans: let's trade any decent player we have on our team and offer them all less than $20MM/yr because that's so much money!
The sooner, the better.
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#21
Being a low IQ player can masquerade itself as being uncoachable.

But I've always thought his perfect role would be as 6th man. Just let him come in and fire away. Would be one of the top 6th men in the league.

And I've long thought it's Bogi who should have been groomed as the 2 guard. A more skilled and intelligent player who I don't think has ever gotten used to being a sub. He plays like he presses as he knows he's coming out. Want the Serbia version of Bogi, run him out 30-35 a night at the 2 next to Fox.

To me that's yet another knock on this organization.

I would never put more investment in the lower IQ and more erratic player.
 
#22
Unfortunately as I've said in other threads, Hield should be JJ Redick, and I hate saying that. Redick is a great shooter, but he's at his best just spot up shooting or coming off screens. That's what Buddy needs to do, catch and shoot or shoot off screens.

The reason I hate saying that is because Buddy is getting paid crazy money to just catch and shoot, but you have to utilize your players in a way that best fits the team. Asking him to carry a team and be the top scorer game after game is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You take the big fat L on the contract and play him the right way.

He just doesn't have the handles or the IQ to be relied upon to handle the ball and make plays. Pass him the ball when there's a clear shot? Definitely. Give him the ball? Definitely not.

You can discuss all day whether he's coachable or not, but he's a 27 (formerly 26) year old player who has been playing the game a certain way (just score) for a very long time. He lacks instinct, and that part isn't coachable. All I'm saying is, you force him to be JJ Redick. He should be an uber-efficient secondary or tertiary scorer. Fox should be Batman anyway and Bagley should be Robin.
 
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rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#23
I said this earlier in the season, I'll say it again. If/when this happens I want you to remember what you wished for.

Kings fans: our GM is terrible, such bad draft picks, we lack talent

Also Kings fans: let's trade any decent player we have on our team and offer them all less than $20MM/yr because that's so much money!
In my humble opinion it would be utterly asinine to trade Buddy before trying him at 6th man and Bogi at the 2.

Bogi's not confident in his role. Buddy appears less confident and is not excelling in his current role. That's two of the main players in roles which they currently aren't doing well in.

Crazy idea but try flipping the script, seeing if Bogi can do well next to Fox as the starter and see if Buddy can do well gunning off the bench going for 15-18 PPG. Could come away with two net positives instead of the current two net negatives.

I also think Fox would do better with a more steady hand next to him.

The current roles and system aren't working. Obviously.
 
#24
Yes, he’s coachable. But he’s also hopeless.

I think it’s part wiring, part his own natural learning curve, and part his own work ethic hurting his ability to digest feedback.

1. I have been and always will believe that you can’t alter wiring. Buddy will always look for his shot first, second, and third and it’ll never change. He’ll hold onto to the ball because an assist is primary only—there is no hockey assist in his world, because he wouldn’t be directly involved. These are things that are byproducts of a player who spent the majority of his youth hooping alone, taking thousands of shots alone. There is only one hero in his games—him. He scores or he makes the primary assist. No one else. We see this often when he’s dribbling in circles around a black hole before heaving a last minute shot. And it won’t change.

2. Some people are fast learners, some are not. Where it takes Fox one mistake to correct it, it takes Buddy 500. That will never change. See Ben or Throb as examples.

3. His work ethic hinders his ability to receive criticism. Buddy is constantly guilty of over rotating & getting sucked into plays while leaving his man open. In his mind, he’s helping. So when he gets checked by a teammate or Walton, as we see often, he disregards it. How can he be wrong when he’s hustling 110% of the time. He is the ultimate embodiment of working hard vs working smart.

He is our JR Smith. The sooner he’s traded, the better.
Interesting perspective. You may be right on several points.
 
#25
In my humble opinion it would be utterly asinine to trade Buddy before trying him at 6th man and Bogi at the 2.

Bogi's not confident in his role. Buddy appears less confident and is not excelling in his current role. That's two of the main players in roles which they currently aren't doing well in.

Crazy idea but try flipping the script, seeing if Bogi can do well next to Fox as the starter and see if Buddy can do well gunning off the bench going for 15-18 PPG. Could come away with two net positives instead of the current two net negatives.

I also think Fox would do better with a more steady hand next to him.

The current roles and system aren't working. Obviously.
This is the obvious fix but the discord it would cause in the locker room will prevent it from happening. In Buddy’s mind he’s our guy. The contract we’ve given him and the freedoms we’ve allowed him on the court reinforce that. A move to the bench will most likely be seen by him as a breach of trust towards him as a player. From there it’s only too easy to picture him airing out his grievances to the media, logging inexplicable DNPs, and us watching as his trade value plummets and our already poor locker room environment plunges even further. So while I’m a big fan of Buddy as the 6th man, and think that will be his long term role in this league, I don’t think it happens in a kings uniform.
 
#26
Being a low IQ player can masquerade itself as being uncoachable.

But I've always thought his perfect role would be as 6th man. Just let him come in and fire away. Would be one of the top 6th men in the league.

And I've long thought it's Bogi who should have been groomed as the 2 guard. A more skilled and intelligent player who I don't think has ever gotten used to being a sub. He plays like he presses as he knows he's coming out. Want the Serbia version of Bogi, run him out 30-35 a night at the 2 next to Fox.

To me that's yet another knock on this organization.

I would never put more investment in the lower IQ and more erratic player.
Based upon
Being a low IQ player can masquerade itself as being uncoachable.

But I've always thought his perfect role would be as 6th man. Just let him come in and fire away. Would be one of the top 6th men in the league.

And I've long thought it's Bogi who should have been groomed as the 2 guard. A more skilled and intelligent player who I don't think has ever gotten used to being a sub. He plays like he presses as he knows he's coming out. Want the Serbia version of Bogi, run him out 30-35 a night at the 2 next to Fox.

To me that's yet another knock on this organization.

I would never put more investment in the lower IQ and more erratic player.
Bogi has demonstrated that he is a better all-around player than Buddy. If the team had to decide between the two, it should keep Bogdanovic.
 
#27
This is the obvious fix but the discord it would cause in the locker room will prevent it from happening. In Buddy’s mind he’s our guy. The contract we’ve given him and the freedoms we’ve allowed him on the court reinforce that. A move to the bench will most likely be seen by him as a breach of trust towards him as a player. From there it’s only too easy to picture him airing out his grievances to the media, logging inexplicable DNPs, and us watching as his trade value plummets and our already poor locker room environment plunges even further. So while I’m a big fan of Buddy as the 6th man, and think that will be his long term role in this league, I don’t think it happens in a kings uniform.
Perhaps trading Buddy is the best option for the team.
 
#28
If the team has Buddy focus strictly.on shooting and not making mistakes, he could provide more value than Bogi. The funny thing about the Reddick comps are JJ is actually a very smart player and good ballhandler, and broke into his own when he started playing defense with the Magic. Buddy is simply a lesser player but asked to do more.
The Kings and Buddy could do better with a secondary ball handler at SF, which is funny and sad considering where we could have been if not for you know what.
 
#29
Perhaps trading Buddy is the best option for the team.
I would. I think Buddy is a heck of a player but he’s just not a starter in this league and at this point it’s pretty hard to argue that. If he’s not making his shots his overall game is so bad usually that he becomes one of the worst players in the league. Like I said, I don’t think Buddy accepts a backup role with us. We’ve already put it in his head he’s a star. It’s going to take another team humbling him to really turn him into the asset he can be.
 
#30
The fact that we gave Hield an extension this summer really hurts. We would have been able to resign him for way less after a season like this (and that's not even knowing how the China situation is going to affect the salary cap).

I was very surprised he got more than Brogdon this offseason. I stated it before, but Brogdon was a better ball handler, better passer, better defender, higher IQ, & more efficient. They are similar in size & rebounding. Other than that, Hield is really only better than Brogdon at shooting (which Brogdon is no slouch in), but somehow a lot of fans (NBA fans not just SAC fans) thought that outweighed everything else.

PG - Fox (34 min) / Brogdon (14 min)
SG - Brogdon (20 min) / Hield (28 min)
SF - Doncic (20 min) / Bogdan (28 min)
PF - ??? / Doncic (14 min)

Even if we drafted Doncic, there’s no guarantee we could have signed Brogdon. But that would have been quite the 5 man rotation on the perimeter.