Is Buddy uncoachable? (Moved from Fox thread)

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#93
Is it Walton's changes or was Buddy's high point last year? This is getting a bit unbearable
Remember ASW last year? Buddy in the 3-point challenge? I had fears back then that Buddy wasn't the lock-down shooter a lot of people called him. On paper (tip of the hat to STK) he's fine, but when push comes to shove he seems to fail more often than deliver.

Buddy has little court vision and has to rely on his teammates to clear the lane, or create a shot for him. His handles suck and I personally cringe whenever he bring the ball up the court.

Vivek talked a couple of years ago about positionless basketball, where players could be useful in many different roles. Buddy has no place in that kind of game. He is a shooter...and that's pretty much all he can do - sometimes. I wonder if that contract extension ruined him - now he has to produce to prove he's worth it. He talks the talk but I'm honestly not sure he can really walk the walk.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#94
Remember when I said before the season I was really worried about Buddy regressing, and I was met with some pretty heavy judging side-eyes? :p
 
#96
Remember ASW last year? Buddy in the 3-point challenge? I had fears back then that Buddy wasn't the lock-down shooter a lot of people called him. On paper (tip of the hat to STK) he's fine, but when push comes to shove he seems to fail more often than deliver.

Buddy has little court vision and has to rely on his teammates to clear the lane, or create a shot for him. His handles suck and I personally cringe whenever he bring the ball up the court.

Vivek talked a couple of years ago about positionless basketball, where players could be useful in many different roles. Buddy has no place in that kind of game. He is a shooter...and that's pretty much all he can do - sometimes. I wonder if that contract extension ruined him - now he has to produce to prove he's worth it. He talks the talk but I'm honestly not sure he can really walk the walk.
You have to remember as well though that every part of the machine has an effect on the others. I agree, I don't like Buddy bringing the ball up because it doesn't put he or the team in the most dangerous position to score efficiently. That said, some of that also has to do with who is next to him. For instance next to Fox or Joseph you can pressure him much differently than if he had an option to quickly pass up to who is going to knock down a transition shot out of his dribbling the ball up. Is it Buddy? is it the call? All I know is it's well into the season and it's something that can be changed and we're still seeing it.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#97
You have to remember as well though that every part of the machine has an effect on the others. I agree, I don't like Buddy bringing the ball up because it doesn't put he or the team in the most dangerous position to score efficiently. That said, some of that also has to do with who is next to him. For instance next to Fox or Joseph you can pressure him much differently than if he had an option to quickly pass up to who is going to knock down a transition shot out of his dribbling the ball up. Is it Buddy? is it the call? All I know is it's well into the season and it's something that can be changed and we're still seeing it.
You blame the coach. I blame the players. Maybe someday neither of us will be pointing fingers. ;)
 
#98
You blame the coach. I blame the players. Maybe someday neither of us will be pointing fingers. ;)
I'm watching the games and noticing consistent themes and I'm not just wildly blaming anyone for anything. What I'm seeing right now are other teams going small against the Kings and the result is not good for the Kings. The Kings most effective lineups in general appear to be with Ariza and Barnes at the forward spots which also help them match up against those very same lineups. Stats back it up. Buddy Hield hasn't played great up to this point in the season but the negative runs are not just because of him and yes, I do think he's not being used properly. Is it him or the game plan? If it's not the game plan I can't see how any coach would let that continue on for this long so.... I mean geez, it's not like I'm blaming Walton for players leaving their feet on jump shooters and fouling. Or players taking 40 foot contested jumpers. With the spacing this team gets depending on the set or lineup those may very well be the best shot available lol.
 
#99
In agreement with others who have said he would be a great 6th man. I feel Bogdan would be a better starter but he's not healthy that often.

I have some sympathy for Buddy. Last year the team had no expectations, he had a green light in a high tempo offense and limited defensive accountability. It was his dream. This year expectations are up and new coach cares mire about the areas in which he struggles. A lot of people would find thay difficult. Not saying he couldn't/shouldn't handle it better.
 
Today he bitched at Bjelly for not giving him a hand off pass (when Wes ran into Bjelly)....like Buddy seriously Bjelly is like the most unselfish player (always giving extra passes/turning down shots)on the squad and your going to ***** at him for that come on dude....
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
Napier says he's had a "D" season, with last year an "A." Says he would like to see Hield as a 6th man with Bogs as the starter. Christie has questions about whether Buddy could deal with the sub role. (He didn't disagree with Napier about the "D" grade). My question: Who is the SG of the future for this team? It sure ain't Bogs, who has shown over two and half years that he's either injured or playing injured for most of the season. The Kings have a two-guard problem. The old idea of Hield as part of the core is vaporized and should be fully erased from any plans going forward. Make a deal by the trade deadline or make a draft pick or make a deal during the off-season, but this SG void needs to be solved before 2020-21 season begins.
 
Napier says he's had a "D" season, with last year an "A." Says he would like to see Hield as a 6th man with Bogs as the starter. Christie has questions about whether Buddy could deal with the sub role. (He didn't disagree with Napier about the "D" grade). My question: Who is the SG of the future for this team? It sure ain't Bogs, who has shown over two and half years that he's either injured or playing injured for most of the season. The Kings have a two-guard problem. The old idea of Hield as part of the core is vaporized and should be fully erased from any plans going forward. Make a deal by the trade deadline or make a draft pick or make a deal during the off-season, but this SG void needs to be solved before 2020-21 season begins.
Buddy is a poison pill contract. The Kings incoming value is $4.9 mil. The other team's incoming value is $19.8 mil. Nobody has the cap space to make it work right now.
 
Napier says he's had a "D" season, with last year an "A." Says he would like to see Hield as a 6th man with Bogs as the starter. Christie has questions about whether Buddy could deal with the sub role. (He didn't disagree with Napier about the "D" grade). My question: Who is the SG of the future for this team? It sure ain't Bogs, who has shown over two and half years that he's either injured or playing injured for most of the season. The Kings have a two-guard problem. The old idea of Hield as part of the core is vaporized and should be fully erased from any plans going forward. Make a deal by the trade deadline or make a draft pick or make a deal during the off-season, but this SG void needs to be solved before 2020-21 season begins.
That role wouldn't help Buddy out at all. In fact, it would make him worse. He needs a PG who can find him open shots. Sending him to the bench not only decreases his open shot attempts, but now it increases his ball handling because he will be paired with a lesser PG.

Basically it would just exacerbate the situation he's going through now. He has actually been looking better the last handful of games since they've upped the pace. He's not taking 25 shots to get 23 points like he was doing every few games earlier in the year.
 
That role wouldn't help Buddy out at all. In fact, it would make him worse. He needs a PG who can find him open shots. Sending him to the bench not only decreases his open shot attempts, but now it increases his ball handling because he will be paired with a lesser PG.

Basically it would just exacerbate the situation he's going through now. He has actually been looking better the last handful of games since they've upped the pace. He's not taking 25 shots to get 23 points like he was doing every few games earlier in the year.
Buddy needs to be the 3rd or 4th best player/option on a team. When he's out there with the second team he goes into hero mode.
 
i truly think all of the injuries screwed with our pace (no Fox) and ability to get Buddy open on a consistent basis

Everyone's just thrown off right now, and we'd be very foolish to give up on Buddy as a result, even though he frustrates
the living crap out of me.
The injuries have basically saved the season from already being over (as well as the West sucking) and us being in prime position for a top 5 , the reality is Buddy/Barnes are not that good and if the Kings gave there shots/green light status to Bogi/Bjelica and replaced Buddy/Barnes with role players the team would be far better/smarter.

The whole injuries ruined our season (prior to Holmes going down) is a myth, it was a blessing having Bjelyl/Holmes start instead of Dedmon/Bagley. The injuries excuse if beyond embarrassing right now.
 
Napier says he's had a "D" season, with last year an "A." Says he would like to see Hield as a 6th man with Bogs as the starter. Christie has questions about whether Buddy could deal with the sub role. (He didn't disagree with Napier about the "D" grade). My question: Who is the SG of the future for this team? It sure ain't Bogs, who has shown over two and half years that he's either injured or playing injured for most of the season. The Kings have a two-guard problem. The old idea of Hield as part of the core is vaporized and should be fully erased from any plans going forward. Make a deal by the trade deadline or make a draft pick or make a deal during the off-season, but this SG void needs to be solved before 2020-21 season begins.
Sounds like Buddy's going to be moved to the 6th man role when Bogs returns--about damn time.

The SG of the future is not on the current roster.

At some point, it may be fair to say that this is what Buddy is rather than this being a slump. You don't slump for half of a year. Teams have adjusted to him--crowd him on offense and take him off the dribble on defense. Then watch him gift you 4 to 10 points a game off his dumb turnovers or when he loses his man on defense.

As for the Buddy is a great, humble guy. What the hell happened paradox? Buddy is prime example of fame and money changing you. He is the latter now more than the former. Get used to it.
 
The injuries have basically saved the season from already being over (as well as the West sucking) and us being in prime position for a top 5 , the reality is Buddy/Barnes are not that good and if the Kings gave there shots/green light status to Bogi/Bjelica and replaced Buddy/Barnes with role players the team would be far better/smarter.

The whole injuries ruined our season (prior to Holmes going down) is a myth, it was a blessing having Bjelyl/Holmes start instead of Dedmon/Bagley. The injuries excuse if beyond embarrassing right now.
So Fox & Bagley being out "was a blessing"??? You are basing this on what exactly?
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
That role wouldn't help Buddy out at all. In fact, it would make him worse. He needs a PG who can find him open shots. Sending him to the bench not only decreases his open shot attempts, but now it increases his ball handling because he will be paired with a lesser PG.

Basically it would just exacerbate the situation he's going through now. He has actually been looking better the last handful of games since they've upped the pace. He's not taking 25 shots to get 23 points like he was doing every few games earlier in the year.
Point guards aren't the only passers on the team. Example: In the last game Buddy calls for the ball from Fox from across the floor. Fox passes him the ball. Buddy immediately puts the ball down on the floor a few times - dribble, dribble, dribble - and then launches a well-guarded 3 pointer. Miss. The easy play, the simple play, the smart play was to simply catch the ball from Fox, throw immediately to Bagley who was open at the 18' high post position, and then cut to the freaking basket. Nope. Didn't happen. It's not about who he plays with. It's about him. Another example: Buddy Hield gets the ball in the corner; Fox is WIDE open at the 3 point line in clear view of Buddy Hield; Hield dribble, dribble, dribbles, and launches a guarded 3 pointer. MISS. These kind of plays are dumb, selfish, or both. It has nothing to do with the cast around him. Hield doesn't need to play with Steve Nash. He needs to get his head out of his colon and start playing the right way.
 
Point guards aren't the only passers on the team. Example: In the last game Buddy calls for the ball from Fox from across the floor. Fox passes him the ball. Buddy immediately puts the ball down on the floor a few times - dribble, dribble, dribble - and then launches a well-guarded 3 pointer. Miss. The easy play, the simple play, the smart play was to simply catch the ball from Fox, throw immediately to Bagley who was open at the 18' high post position, and then cut to the freaking basket. Nope. Didn't happen. It's not about who he plays with. It's about him. Another example: Buddy Hield gets the ball in the corner; Fox is WIDE open at the 3 point line in clear view of Buddy Hield; Hield dribble, dribble, dribbles, and launches a guarded 3 pointer. MISS. These kind of plays are dumb, selfish, or both. It has nothing to do with the cast around him. Hield doesn't need to play with Steve Nash. He needs to get his head out of his colon and start playing the right way.
I'd blame the coach for letting him do that. Joerger never let him do that and look at how good he was last year.

You're right, point guards aren't the only passers on the team but on this team, Fox is about the only guy that can beat his guy off the dribble. So Fox beats his man off the dribble and drives and kicks it out to Barnes in the corner....Buddy's man runs over to cover Barnes and Barnes swings it to Buddy for a wide open 3. Barnes gets the assist but the easy pass and easy shot were available because Fox beat his man off the dribble.

Those types of scenarios happen much less on the 2nd unit than they do from the starters. The blueprint for Buddy Hield success was laid out last year. The coaching staff has 82 games of tape they can watch and see what made Buddy special last year. Apparently Walton thinks using him this way will be better for him somehow. Me? I think Fox and Bagley needed to improve a ton while all Buddy had to do was keep par with exactly what he did last year but the coaching staff doesn't see it that way.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
I'd blame the coach for letting him do that. Joerger never let him do that and look at how good he was last year.

You're right, point guards aren't the only passers on the team but on this team, Fox is about the only guy that can beat his guy off the dribble. So Fox beats his man off the dribble and drives and kicks it out to Barnes in the corner....Buddy's man runs over to cover Barnes and Barnes swings it to Buddy for a wide open 3. Barnes gets the assist but the easy pass and easy shot were available because Fox beat his man off the dribble.

Those types of scenarios happen much less on the 2nd unit than they do from the starters. The blueprint for Buddy Hield success was laid out last year. The coaching staff has 82 games of tape they can watch and see what made Buddy special last year. Apparently Walton thinks using him this way will be better for him somehow. Me? I think Fox and Bagley needed to improve a ton while all Buddy had to do was keep par with exactly what he did last year but the coaching staff doesn't see it that way.
Fox can't be Buddy Hield's crutch. It's just a cop out to use Fox as the excuse as I said in the prior post. What made Buddy good last year is a run & gun jack it up offense that reduces Buddy Hield to simply, "get ball, shoot ball." That's not feasible going forward. They can't and they shouldn't regress to a jack-it-up-run-at-all-cost offense of last year. They blew it when they gave him starter's money. Now they are eating it. They've got to cut their losses by reducing him to a sixth man or unloading him. Buddy Hield is now dealing with this fact as well. He acknowledged last year that playing fancy free with Fox running up the court unleashed his game. Well, that ain't happening. Period. And he knows it. And he knows that no matter what team he goes to he's not going to be running & gunning like last year, certainly not a winning/playoff team. He's dealing with the recognition that he just isn't as good as what he thought and "his game" as he's defined it doesn't work for a winning team. He has to reconstruct his game going forward, and with it, his image of himself as a basketball player.

I agree that Walton has to come down hard on Buddy Hield. He should have benched him for the remainder of the game with those plays, especially not passing to Fox. Of course then we'd have the mega-drama in the locker room afterwards.:rolleyes: We're seeing this negotiation with Hield and Walton on the floor where Hield does some of the good basketball that Walton wants, but only so he can do some of the bad basketball that he wants wants. We're at the half-way point of the season. It's not a mystery to Walton and Divac what is going on with Buddy Hield. Undoubtedly, they've discussed his lack of progress. There has to be some very firm straight talk and action going forward, or a deal, as unlikely as that might be. This is hurting the team.
 
Fox can't be Buddy Hield's crutch. It's just a cop out to use Fox as the excuse as I said in the prior post. What made Buddy good last year is a run & gun jack it up offense that reduces Buddy Hield to simply, "get ball, shoot ball." That's not feasible going forward. They can't and they shouldn't regress to a jack-it-up-run-at-all-cost offense of last year. They blew it when they gave him starter's money. Now they are eating it. They've got to cut their losses by reducing him to a sixth man or unloading him. Buddy Hield is now dealing with this fact as well. He acknowledged last year that playing fancy free with Fox running up the court unleashed his game. Well, that ain't happening. Period. And he knows it. And he knows that no matter what team he goes to he's not going to be running & gunning like last year, certainly not a winning/playoff team. He's dealing with the recognition that he just isn't as good as what he thought and "his game" as he's defined it doesn't work for a winning team. He has to reconstruct his game going forward, and with it, his image of himself as a basketball player.

I agree that Walton has to come down hard on Buddy Hield. He should have benched him for the remainder of the game with those plays, especially not passing to Fox. Of course then we'd have the mega-drama in the locker room afterwards.:rolleyes: We're seeing this negotiation with Hield and Walton on the floor where Hield does some of the good basketball that Walton wants, but only so he can do some of the bad basketball that he wants wants. We're at the half-way point of the season. It's not a mystery to Walton and Divac what is going on with Buddy Hield. Undoubtedly, they've discussed his lack of progress. There has to be some very firm straight talk and action going forward, or a deal, as unlikely as that might be. This is hurting the team.
What's wrong with the run and gun style? It worked great for 2/3 of the season last year. They had the best season going in over a decade with that style. It's what our best players are all built for. If you don't think that style is sustainable, then they might as well just get rid of Fox, Hield and Bagley because that's the style that suits them best.

Why can't Fox be Hield's crutch? Not every player can just go out there and make plays on their own. Every player on the Rockets use Harden and Westbrook as their crutch. All the players on the Mavericks use Doncic as their crutch. Hield's strength does not lie in finding his own shot or making things happen with the ball in his hands. His strength is shooting so he needs to be fed good looks.

It's on the coach to coach to the players strengths and we haven't seen a lot of that until just recently when they finally picked up the pace. Hield has played better the last 8 or 9 games. Not quite up to the level he was at last year but enough to slightly beat out the negatives he gives on defense. I can't really blame him too much if Walton wants the ball in his hands more often because every single Kings fan out there knew that Buddy dribbling around the court was a bad idea but apparently the expert getting paid millions of dollars to coach the team did not know that.
 
What's wrong with the run and gun style? It worked great for 2/3 of the season last year. They had the best season going in over a decade with that style. It's what our best players are all built for. If you don't think that style is sustainable, then they might as well just get rid of Fox, Hield and Bagley because that's the style that suits them best.

Why can't Fox be Hield's crutch? Not every player can just go out there and make plays on their own. Every player on the Rockets use Harden and Westbrook as their crutch. All the players on the Mavericks use Doncic as their crutch. Hield's strength does not lie in finding his own shot or making things happen with the ball in his hands. His strength is shooting so he needs to be fed good looks.

It's on the coach to coach to the players strengths and we haven't seen a lot of that until just recently when they finally picked up the pace. Hield has played better the last 8 or 9 games. Not quite up to the level he was at last year but enough to slightly beat out the negatives he gives on defense. I can't really blame him too much if Walton wants the ball in his hands more often because every single Kings fan out there knew that Buddy dribbling around the court was a bad idea but apparently the expert getting paid millions of dollars to coach the team did not know that.
For me, the run and gun style is fun as hell, but it lacks consistency, tends to lead to more injuries because of wear and tear, and doesn't play well in the playoffs when teams clamp down or slow down the game. So as painful as it is to watch, the Kings need to develop a consistent half court, slower paced game to be winners in the long run.
 
For me, the run and gun style is fun as hell, but it lacks consistency, tends to lead to more injuries because of wear and tear, and doesn't play well in the playoffs when teams clamp down or slow down the game. So as painful as it is to watch, the Kings need to develop a consistent half court, slower paced game to be winners in the long run.
To me it's backwards because you're coaching a bunch of guys who aren't even good enough to make the playoffs.....to go deep into the playoffs. But you'll never get there because you're forcing them to do something they aren't good at when they're still learning the game. They should take a page out of Adelman's book and let them play loose and free and get some wins and some playoff experience under their belts. First round exits are perfectly fine. Then tighten things up and tweak their games after that to start winning in the playoffs.

What Walton is doing is something a coach should be doing to the Blazers or something. A team that makes the playoffs every year but doesn't really get past the first round all that often. A team like that needs to learn how to go deep into the post season. Our team? Just make the damn playoffs. Being good at half court sets means absolutely nothing if you only win 30 games.
 
To me it's backwards because you're coaching a bunch of guys who aren't even good enough to make the playoffs.....to go deep into the playoffs. But you'll never get there because you're forcing them to do something they aren't good at when they're still learning the game. They should take a page out of Adelman's book and let them play loose and free and get some wins and some playoff experience under their belts. First round exits are perfectly fine. Then tighten things up and tweak their games after that to start winning in the playoffs.

What Walton is doing is something a coach should be doing to the Blazers or something. A team that makes the playoffs every year but doesn't really get past the first round all that often. A team like that needs to learn how to go deep into the post season. Our team? Just make the damn playoffs. Being good at half court sets means absolutely nothing if you only win 30 games.
I like coaches, who tailor an offensive and defensive game plan to meet their player's strength. Carlo Ancelloti is a legend, who is famous for doing this at whatever spot he's at. At the NBA level, I'm struggling to find a coach, who has done this consistently at a high level. Help? Maybe Kerr.

I also like coaches, who force players to play their system. Mourinho is famous for this on the defensive side of the ball. Sari does the same on the offensive of the ball. At the NBA level, Pop, Snyder, Spolestra do this consistently...to name a few.

Of the coaches named, Ancellotti is the rarest. But the majority are the Mourinho, Pop, Snyders of the world. They have a proven system. They force their players (either by playing time or acquiring/trading/releasing players) to play their systems. So I really don't mind what Walton is trying to do. Especially since last year's style was really only effective for 50% to 60% of the year. Once teams figured them out, winning became much harder.
 
I like coaches, who tailor an offensive and defensive game plan to meet their player's strength. Carlo Ancelloti is a legend, who is famous for doing this at whatever spot he's at. At the NBA level, I'm struggling to find a coach, who has done this consistently at a high level. Help? Maybe Kerr.

I also like coaches, who force players to play their system. Mourinho is famous for this on the defensive side of the ball. Sari does the same on the offensive of the ball. At the NBA level, Pop, Snyder, Spolestra do this consistently...to name a few.

Of the coaches named, Ancellotti is the rarest. But the majority are the Mourinho, Pop, Snyders of the world. They have a proven system. They force their players (either by playing time or acquiring/trading/releasing players) to play their systems. So I really don't mind what Walton is trying to do. Especially since last year's style was really only effective for 50% to 60% of the year. Once teams figured them out, winning became much harder.
I thought last year's style was effective up until two things happened around the same time. Shumperts play fell off and he was traded and Bjelica's play fell off. Bjelica's play was more important because he was our best advanced stat guy for half the season and then became one of our worst players after that. Troy Williams also played over his head to start the season.

Buddy and Fox looked good all year. Their stats during the final part of the season where the team started losing were basically identical to the beginning of the season when the team started winning.

I don't think teams figured it out. I think Shumpert was playing over his head. Bjelica was playing over his head as well but he's playing just about at the same level this year so maybe that's just the player he is these days. Maybe he got worn out from the pace? I don't know but I never got the feeling that the team got figured out. Especially since our best players never faltered.