Offensive statistics (from Buddy thread)

#1
But it's ok to use that metric to compare Buddy and McLemore? If you've been watching the games you would know that for a large part of the season Buddy has been our primary playmaker and he has very much had a chance to turn the ball over. Who has been bringing the ball up? Who has been initiating the plays and running pick and roll with Fox out? I mean.. that's one of the biggest complaints I hear around here!
I never even mentioned McLemore. I just think the metric should be used across more similar players.

Here's some random stats that actually back up your argument.

Points per possession and the turnover percentage for the pick and roll ball handler.

Barnes 1.06 - 12.9%
Hield .92 - 14.7% (last year .77 - 15.1%)
Bjelica .86 - 21.4%
Bogie .80 - 19.7%
Ferrell .78 12.2%
CoJo .78 - 15.4%
Fox .76 - 15.4% (last year .88 - 15.3%)

So far, Buddy has not only scored more on pick and rolls but he's turned the ball over less than Fox in that situation. Barnes has been by far the best as the pick and roll ball handler but his is a smaller sample size so it could just be luck.

Isolation ppp and TO%.

Fox 1.07 - 18.6%
Hield 1.00 - 10%
Bogie 0.91 - 9.1%
Barnes .89 - 15.1%
Bjelica .77 - 23.5%
Bagley .73 - 13.3%

Oddly, Hield and Bogie are tied for the best isolation players on the team.

Transition ppp and TO%

Holmes 1.73 - 0%
Ariza 1.37 - 2.9%
Bjelica 1.34 - 10.7%
Fox 1.17 - 15.4%
Bagley 1.07 - 7.1%
Barnes 1.07 - 11.8%
Bogie 1.05 - 9.8%
Buddy 1.01 - 14%

Holmes is nearly perfect in transition. Buddy is our worst transition player out of our main guys.

Points per possession percentiles for Buddy. This season vs. last season.

Spot up 76% / 88%
Isolation 75% / 71%
Off screens 73% / 83%
Pick and roll ball handler 68% / 36%
Transition 33% / 70%
Hand offs 11% / 81%
Cutter 1% / 47% (only does it 3% of the time so it's not as bad as it seems)

Hield's numbers are down across the board when compared to the rest of the league. His pick and roll has improved substantially but everything else has dropped, other than iso's which went up by just a little bit. His transition and spot up drops have hurt the worst because those are two of his most frequent plays. Hand offs has the biggest drop from last year but that's not a play he's involved in all that much, so like the cutter stat, it's not as bad as it seems.

The gripe should really be that he needs his percentiles to be more like what they were last season where he was 70-88% in most of the categories. Those are the kinds of numbers he needs to put up to offset his defense and make his contract worthwhile. The numbers he's putting up this year are alright but they don't really offset his defense enough to justify the contract (or winning games regularly). He just has to be more efficient to play winning basketball.
 
#2
I never even mentioned McLemore. I just think the metric should be used across more similar players.

Here's some random stats that actually back up your argument.

Points per possession and the turnover percentage for the pick and roll ball handler.

Barnes 1.06 - 12.9%
Hield .92 - 14.7% (last year .77 - 15.1%)
Bjelica .86 - 21.4%
Bogie .80 - 19.7%
Ferrell .78 12.2%
CoJo .78 - 15.4%
Fox .76 - 15.4% (last year .88 - 15.3%)

So far, Buddy has not only scored more on pick and rolls but he's turned the ball over less than Fox in that situation. Barnes has been by far the best as the pick and roll ball handler but his is a smaller sample size so it could just be luck.

Isolation ppp and TO%.

Fox 1.07 - 18.6%
Hield 1.00 - 10%
Bogie 0.91 - 9.1%
Barnes .89 - 15.1%
Bjelica .77 - 23.5%
Bagley .73 - 13.3%

Oddly, Hield and Bogie are tied for the best isolation players on the team.

Transition ppp and TO%

Holmes 1.73 - 0%
Ariza 1.37 - 2.9%
Bjelica 1.34 - 10.7%
Fox 1.17 - 15.4%
Bagley 1.07 - 7.1%
Barnes 1.07 - 11.8%
Bogie 1.05 - 9.8%
Buddy 1.01 - 14%

Holmes is nearly perfect in transition. Buddy is our worst transition player out of our main guys.

Points per possession percentiles for Buddy. This season vs. last season.

Spot up 76% / 88%
Isolation 75% / 71%
Off screens 73% / 83%
Pick and roll ball handler 68% / 36%
Transition 33% / 70%
Hand offs 11% / 81%
Cutter 1% / 47% (only does it 3% of the time so it's not as bad as it seems)

Hield's numbers are down across the board when compared to the rest of the league. His pick and roll has improved substantially but everything else has dropped, other than iso's which went up by just a little bit. His transition and spot up drops have hurt the worst because those are two of his most frequent plays. Hand offs has the biggest drop from last year but that's not a play he's involved in all that much, so like the cutter stat, it's not as bad as it seems.

The gripe should really be that he needs his percentiles to be more like what they were last season where he was 70-88% in most of the categories. Those are the kinds of numbers he needs to put up to offset his defense and make his contract worthwhile. The numbers he's putting up this year are alright but they don't really offset his defense enough to justify the contract (or winning games regularly). He just has to be more efficient to play winning basketball.
Thanks for providing these stats, good to know.

Re McLemore, I was just pointing out that your argument is entirely valid, but this logic was not applied to the McLemore Hield comparison as well which another poster brought up as his example of how bad Hield is.

I definitely agree he needs to be more efficient. I do not agree that he is a 6th man at best and should be traded. I would also restate the pedantic case that technically, we aren't yet paying him big bucks for his current production.
 
#3
I never even mentioned McLemore. I just think the metric should be used across more similar players.

Here's some random stats that actually back up your argument.

Points per possession and the turnover percentage for the pick and roll ball handler.

Barnes 1.06 - 12.9%
Hield .92 - 14.7% (last year .77 - 15.1%)
Bjelica .86 - 21.4%
Bogie .80 - 19.7%
Ferrell .78 12.2%
CoJo .78 - 15.4%
Fox .76 - 15.4% (last year .88 - 15.3%)

So far, Buddy has not only scored more on pick and rolls but he's turned the ball over less than Fox in that situation. Barnes has been by far the best as the pick and roll ball handler but his is a smaller sample size so it could just be luck.

Isolation ppp and TO%.

Fox 1.07 - 18.6%
Hield 1.00 - 10%
Bogie 0.91 - 9.1%
Barnes .89 - 15.1%
Bjelica .77 - 23.5%
Bagley .73 - 13.3%

Oddly, Hield and Bogie are tied for the best isolation players on the team.

Transition ppp and TO%

Holmes 1.73 - 0%
Ariza 1.37 - 2.9%
Bjelica 1.34 - 10.7%
Fox 1.17 - 15.4%
Bagley 1.07 - 7.1%
Barnes 1.07 - 11.8%
Bogie 1.05 - 9.8%
Buddy 1.01 - 14%

Holmes is nearly perfect in transition. Buddy is our worst transition player out of our main guys.

Points per possession percentiles for Buddy. This season vs. last season.

Spot up 76% / 88%
Isolation 75% / 71%
Off screens 73% / 83%
Pick and roll ball handler 68% / 36%
Transition 33% / 70%
Hand offs 11% / 81%
Cutter 1% / 47% (only does it 3% of the time so it's not as bad as it seems)

Hield's numbers are down across the board when compared to the rest of the league. His pick and roll has improved substantially but everything else has dropped, other than iso's which went up by just a little bit. His transition and spot up drops have hurt the worst because those are two of his most frequent plays. Hand offs has the biggest drop from last year but that's not a play he's involved in all that much, so like the cutter stat, it's not as bad as it seems.

The gripe should really be that he needs his percentiles to be more like what they were last season where he was 70-88% in most of the categories. Those are the kinds of numbers he needs to put up to offset his defense and make his contract worthwhile. The numbers he's putting up this year are alright but they don't really offset his defense enough to justify the contract (or winning games regularly). He just has to be more efficient to play winning basketball.
Can you provide a link for where you got the stats. They're good and interesting. I have always been of the belief that Buddy needs to do more cutting. That said, here's exactly how bad or good he's been with the stats that you've provided (usage for each type of play would be great--we would be able to tell how much his play has changed due to the new system). Formatting screws up the columns--focus on the bold.

Play 2020 2019 % Diff
Spot Up
76.0% 88.0% -13.6%
Off Screens
75.0% 71.0% 5.6%
P&R Ball Handler
68.0% 38.0% 78.9%
Transition
33.0% 70.0% -52.9%
Hand Offs
11.0% 81.0% -86.4%
Cutter
1.0% 47.0% -97.9%
 
#4
Can you provide a link for where you got the stats. They're good and interesting. I have always been of the belief that Buddy needs to do more cutting. That said, here's exactly how bad or good he's been with the stats that you've provided (usage for each type of play would be great--we would be able to tell how much his play has changed due to the new system). Formatting screws up the columns--focus on the bold.

Play 2020 2019 % Diff
Spot Up
76.0% 88.0% -13.6%
Off Screens
75.0% 71.0% 5.6%
P&R Ball Handler
68.0% 38.0% 78.9%
Transition
33.0% 70.0% -52.9%
Hand Offs
11.0% 81.0% -86.4%
Cutter
1.0% 47.0% -97.9%
https://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/

Yeah I thought about the usage halfway through it and I didn't feel like backtracking and looking it up again. If you want, use the link above and post up the frequency % of each of those plays. I believe transition and spot ups are the two biggest problems because those had fairly high frequency percentages.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#5
Can you provide a link for where you got the stats. They're good and interesting. I have always been of the belief that Buddy needs to do more cutting. That said, here's exactly how bad or good he's been with the stats that you've provided (usage for each type of play would be great--we would be able to tell how much his play has changed due to the new system). Formatting screws up the columns--focus on the bold.

Play 2020 2019 % Diff
Spot Up
76.0% 88.0% -13.6%
Off Screens
75.0% 71.0% 5.6%
P&R Ball Handler
68.0% 38.0% 78.9%
Transition
33.0% 70.0% -52.9%
Hand Offs
11.0% 81.0% -86.4%
Cutter
1.0% 47.0% -97.9%
What does "hands off" mean? Is this for last season and this season or is this for the games in 2019 and 2020? What is a P&R ball handler % mean? Buddy doesn't roll. So is this assists? There needs to be a lot more explanation here.
 
#6
What does "hands off" mean? Is this for last season and this season or is this for the games in 2019 and 2020? What is a P&R ball handler % mean? Buddy doesn't roll. So is this assists? There needs to be a lot more explanation here.
Hand off is like if Holmes has the ball out near the 3 point line and hands the ball off to Buddy as he curls around him and shoots.

The numbers on the left are this season and numbers on the right are last season.

The percentages are what percentile Buddy is in compared to the rest of the league and it's referring to points per possession. So on spot up shots he's better than 76% of the league but last year he was better than 88% of the league as far as how many points he scored per spot up shot.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#7
MOD NOTE: I broke these out from the Buddy thread so you stat folks can have a couple of threads (one offense, one defense) to share numbers to your heart's content. :)

I freely admit to not knowing too much about this stuff. If I shouldn't have broken it out, let me know and I'll merge it back in.