Is Buddy uncoachable? (Moved from Fox thread)

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#31
This is the obvious fix but the discord it would cause in the locker room will prevent it from happening. In Buddy’s mind he’s our guy. The contract we’ve given him and the freedoms we’ve allowed him on the court reinforce that. A move to the bench will most likely be seen by him as a breach of trust towards him as a player. From there it’s only too easy to picture him airing out his grievances to the media, logging inexplicable DNPs, and us watching as his trade value plummets and our already poor locker room environment plunges even further. So while I’m a big fan of Buddy as the 6th man, and think that will be his long term role in this league, I don’t think it happens in a kings uniform.
Team comes first, not Buddy.

And frankly, I’d think if it worked and the team started winning, he’d be on board.

I also think Bogi fits better with Bagley as well.

It compounds the contract situation if he’s locked into a starting role because of it while both he and the team underachieve.
 
#32
Buddy works best off ball, Fox and Bogi are both best on ball. Offensively, does it really make sense to move Bogi to the starting lineup where he competes with Fox (and, eventually, Bagley) for touches, while asking Buddy to do more playmaking as 6th man, when we already know his ball handling needs work?
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#33
I have concluded that Buddy is a skilled role player that gets into trouble when he tries to play a complete game as a starter.
When he gave up the 4 point play I was talking to the tv.
The analogy that comes to mind is when people get promoted beyond their abilities in a business organization the trouble starts.
So are you saying what we have here is "The Buddy Principle"?? ;)
 
#34
Buddy works best off ball, Fox and Bogi are both best on ball. Offensively, does it really make sense to move Bogi to the starting lineup where he competes with Fox (and, eventually, Bagley) for touches, while asking Buddy to do more playmaking as 6th man, when we already know his ball handling needs work?
Thanks for providing some logic. The typical idea of a 6th man is someone who comes off the bench to provide the offense, who essentially becomes the focal point of the offense with the second unit. And yet, Buddy/Walton is getting criticised for handling the ball as much as he is, trying to create for himself etc. If you don't want him to be handling the ball, you're only making things worse playing him in a bench lineup with no other offensive threats (CoJo/Ariza/whichever big). I mean, that's basically the lineup we had to play with Fox/Bagley out that necessitated him chucking as much as he did to begin with.
 
#35
Thanks for providing some logic. The typical idea of a 6th man is someone who comes off the bench to provide the offense, who essentially becomes the focal point of the offense with the second unit. And yet, Buddy/Walton is getting criticised for handling the ball as much as he is, trying to create for himself etc. If you don't want him to be handling the ball, you're only making things worse playing him in a bench lineup with no other offensive threats (CoJo/Ariza/whichever big). I mean, that's basically the lineup we had to play with Fox/Bagley out that necessitated him chucking as much as he did to begin with.
1. Playing on the 2nd unit would allow him to overlap some with Fox/Bogi for a sizeable portion of his play. Walton isn't going to pull the entire back court at the same time. And can, in fact, sequence it where he overlaps with Fox/Bogi for over 70% of his time on the court--for example, in the first 3 minutes of his time on the court he plays with Fox (Buddy for Bogi switch). Then overlaps with Cojo for the next 3 minutes (Cojo for Fox switch). Then overlaps with Bogi for the last 4 minutes of his time (Bogi for Barnes...).

2. And, more importantly, playing on the 2nd unit lessons his need to play semi-serviceable defense. He can come in and chuck it mindlessly, which he already does now.

He belongs on the 2nd unit or he should be traded immediately.
 
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#37
Real interesting article from the Athletic this morning. For those with subscriptions, I’ve copied in the link.

In a nutshell, the Coching staff has directed Buddy to be more aggressive with his 3pt shooting and shot creating. According to the article, Buddy is just doing what he’s being asked to do, to try and expand his game to mirror Steph and Klay, rather than just be a catch-and-shoot player.

It’s a nice experiment, but I’m curious if the coaches have seen enough to think he’s capable, or if they go with a different plan.

‘F you shots’ and daring to be like Steph and Klay: Buddy Hield’s journey to being an elite shooter https://theathletic.com/1511176/202...being-an-elite-shooter/?source=shared-article
 
#38
Real interesting article from the Athletic this morning. For those with subscriptions, I’ve copied in the link.

In a nutshell, the Coching staff has directed Buddy to be more aggressive with his 3pt shooting and shot creating. According to the article, Buddy is just doing what he’s being asked to do, to try and expand his game to mirror Steph and Klay, rather than just be a catch-and-shoot player.

It’s a nice experiment, but I’m curious if the coaches have seen enough to think he’s capable, or if they go with a different plan.

‘F you shots’ and daring to be like Steph and Klay: Buddy Hield’s journey to being an elite shooter https://theathletic.com/1511176/202...being-an-elite-shooter/?source=shared-article
I read it.

Klay and Steph are different kinds of players. Klay does most of his shooting from a catch n shoot position. He rarely has more than two dribbles in any possession. While Steph has elite handles, which allows him to shoot from anywhere. The only thing they’re asking Buddy to do that is similar to GSW is to shoot off of pin downs while he’s curling into a jump stop. Seems like a Buddy Hield PR piece from Jason Jones, who was basically Brandon Williams PR guy last year. Pretty certain Ham will follow up with Buddy’s round 2 PR spin soon.
 
#39
I read it.

Klay and Steph are different kinds of players. Klay does most of his shooting from a catch n shoot position. He rarely has more than two dribbles in any possession. While Steph has elite handles, which allows him to shoot from anywhere. The only thing they’re asking Buddy to do that is similar to GSW is to shoot off of pin downs while he’s curling into a jump stop. Seems like a Buddy Hield PR piece from Jason Jones, who was basically Brandon Williams PR guy last year. Pretty certain Ham will follow up with Buddy’s round 2 PR spin soon.
What is your evidence for any of this?
 
#41
Read the article.
I did.......

The article didn't say the ONLY thing he is working on is shooting off pin downs. It's just the thing Buddy said he couldn't believe they were having him do.

Apparently, as indicated in the article, The Athletic is running a series on various players in the league as it relates the 3pt shot. This article is part of it, not some Buddy PR piece.
 
#42
I did.......

The article didn't say the ONLY thing he is working on is shooting off pin downs. It's just the thing Buddy said he couldn't believe they were having him do.

Apparently, as indicated in the article, The Athletic is running a series on various players in the league as it relates the 3pt shot. This article is part of it, not some Buddy PR piece.
Good.

The article is faulty. First, Steph and Klay play nothing a like. Second, the article clearly says they do not want Buddy dribbling the ball like Steph.

But the core premise is for Buddy to play like Steph and Klay? How do you play like Steph, if you don't have his handles? Why does he need to play like Klay when he already played like Klay last year--where he would take less than two dribbles per possession. It's a spin job to provide another reason for why he's struggling--first it was his teammates, then his coaches, and now it's because he's accepting his coaches challenge. Next it'll be the fans.
 
#43
I mean wasn't that the plan for Buddy to come off the bench? Bogi starting the prior season injured laying the path to Buddy as the starter and with the Vivek so high on him (he shoots like Steph) there was no turning back.
 
#44
Locker room concern, media manipulator, low IQ, uncoachable!

Tune in next week - Buddy Hield launches new balance bracelet!
 
#46
Poor defender as well he's the worst defender than gets playing time on the Kings by a wide margin
I have less qualm with criticism like this that has to do with what actually happens on the court, hyperbole or not. It's some of the other takes that IMO are pretty hot.
 
#47
I have less qualm with criticism like this that has to do with what actually happens on the court, hyperbole or not. It's some of the other takes that IMO are pretty hot.
Fair enough, for me I can live with some of his turnovers but I think you would probably admit his defense compared to last season has been pretty bad he showed some improvement but just gets lit up nowadays.
 
#48
Buddy fueled our team last year in the run and gun game where we are just trying to out score everyone. That was fun but is not going to beat the good teams or get you far in the playoffs.

Buddy when he is hitting a few more shots is still a player the opponents have to guard and plan for. We have beat some good teams this year when we played defense. If Buddy doesn’t know why he didn’t play the 4th last night and learn what we did defensively and better yet how to advance the ball under pressure.

I hope he has the skills and mind set to adjust but I haven’t seen that many times the last two years.
 
#49
Buddy fueled our team last year in the run and gun game where we are just trying to out score everyone. That was fun but is not going to beat the good teams or get you far in the playoffs.

Buddy when he is hitting a few more shots is still a player the opponents have to guard and plan for. We have beat some good teams this year when we played defense. If Buddy doesn’t know why he didn’t play the 4th last night and learn what we did defensively and better yet how to advance the ball under pressure.

I hope he has the skills and mind set to adjust but I haven’t seen that many times the last two years.
I was thinking the same thing last night during that stretch when the Kings were behind by 20. It wasn’t just Buddy, Fox was guilty of it too. Both we’re playing like it was last year, sprinting down the court, playing pretty much no defense, and falling behind by 20. The biggest issue is this team is significantly less athletic without Bags at the 4 n Holmes at the 5. You can’t run with Bjelly n Dedmon.

The other truth is, Buddy doesn’t value possessions. You can give away possessions when there are 150 touches. You can’t when the pace is significantly slower and the touches are 75. Each turnover, each crazy shot, each bumbling layup is magnified. As it has this year.

For the above reasons, and as we’ve seen a few games now where Buddy is benched for the entire 4th, once Bogi is healthy, wouldn’t surprise me at all to see him moved to the 6 man role.
 
#50
The fact that we gave Hield an extension this summer really hurts. We would have been able to resign him for way less after a season like this (and that's not even knowing how the China situation is going to affect the salary cap).

I was very surprised he got more than Brogdon this offseason. I stated it before, but Brogdon was a better ball handler, better passer, better defender, higher IQ, & more efficient. They are similar in size & rebounding. Other than that, Hield is really only better than Brogdon at shooting (which Brogdon is no slouch in), but somehow a lot of fans (NBA fans not just SAC fans) thought that outweighed everything else.

PG - Fox (34 min) / Brogdon (14 min)
SG - Brogdon (20 min) / Hield (28 min)
SF - Doncic (20 min) / Bogdan (28 min)
PF - ??? / Doncic (14 min)

Even if we drafted Doncic, there’s no guarantee we could have signed Brogdon. But that would have been quite the 5 man rotation on the perimeter.
I like Brogdon, why do you think he would choose the Kings over the Pacers?
 
#51
Buddy is the same guy.....shoots the crap out of the ball. Same shaky D, gets some assists at times, handle is loose, but his shooting earned him that contract. The better others play, such as Fox, the less they pay attention to Buddy and in theory more catch and shoot. The lack of pace has hurt Buddy’s game a bit
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#53
I have concluded that Buddy is a skilled role player that gets into trouble when he tries to play a complete game as a starter.
When he gave up the 4 point play I was talking to the tv.
The analogy that comes to mind is when people get promoted beyond their abilities in a business organization the trouble starts.
Yes. The "Peter Principle."
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#54
Buddy's response to Walton after he got yanked does not suggest to me that Buddy is taking responsibility for his play, but rather that any reduction in his minutes is seen as a personal insult. Instead, Walton's reduction of Buddy's minutes reflects reality - he was playing poorly and hurting the team's chances of winning the game. We've seen this theme from Buddy Hield this season. I doubt this is what Divac or Walton have in mind when they talk about developing the right team culture. Unless Buddy starts to mature and take responsibility for his own poor play, it's hard to see how this is going to work going forward.
 
#56
In fact, I'd welcome DD right back into the fold with open arms before I'd even take a glance at Buddy... At least he's been professional.
 
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#57
Honest question, where would you rank Buddy? Mitch, Doug, KMart, Marcus Thornton, Bogi, Nick Anderson, Abdul-Wahad, Bobby J, Rauf, John Barry, Ben, Stauskas, Bonzi, n Vernon Maxwell. I’m likely missing someone who has played the two guard spot over the last twenty years. Anyway, for me:

Mitch.

Doug.

Kmart/Bobby

Bogi/Buddy/Bonzi

Barry, Abdul-Wahad.

Others.

Marcus Thornton dead last.

So we’re effectively talking about a player who is in the fourth tier of 2 guards over the last twenty years.
 
#58
If I had to compare him to a former Kings SG, I'd say Francisco Garcia. Similar in the sense that he could shoot you in it, or out of it in any given moment, and also mistake prone. Too bad the one thing he doesn't share with any of them is maturity.
 
#60
there's no reason things can't work out with buddy and our SG situation in general if the following happens

-Buddy matures and starts taking more accountability for his actions and play
-He gets his shot going again
-Bogie signs a games played/efficiency incentive based contract to try to get him to rest and heal his body more

And I see no reason why there couldn't be a swap from Bogie to Hield in the starting lineup. Bogie is the smarter player here and when healthy, the better player all around.

IMO, hield will likely never drastically develop the skills we want him to develop. He may get a little better at dribbling and decision making, but some players just don't have it. It is what it is, he needs to be able to shoot though, that is absolute.