Current Team Discussion and Possible Trades
- Thread starter macadocious
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you continue to assume that all drafts are created equal. where a team picks and in what year a team picks do matter. it can be the difference between anthony bennet and karl anthony towns. in the event that demarcus departs, i'd certainly prefer owning all of my future first round picks to ensure a smooth beginning to the rebuilding process, because missing out on a transformative talent due to a traded first rounder and busting in the following draft could easily set this franchise back years. not one. multiple. it's hardly an unlikely scenario.
there are a finite number of star-level talents in any draft year, and on top of that, winning in the nba always requires more than just a single star-level talent. good teams find ways to acquire more than one. small markets often draft all of their high-level talent. OKC drafted durant, westbrook, harden, and steven adams. portland drafted aldridge, lillard, and mccollum. harden was traded, and aldridge and durant both walked, but both the blazers and the thunder still have superstars to build around. the kings do not if cousins is gone.
point is, it's foolhardy to characterize the potential departure of demarcus cousins and the ensuing loss of a potential top-3 draft pick as a one-year setback. gm's certainly aren't supposed to think that way. they're meant to plan ahead for possible eventualities. again, if demarcus stays, it may not matter. but he could just as easily leave via trade or free agency, and in that scenario, vlade may well regret gambling with future first rounders.
there are a finite number of star-level talents in any draft year, and on top of that, winning in the nba always requires more than just a single star-level talent. good teams find ways to acquire more than one. small markets often draft all of their high-level talent. OKC drafted durant, westbrook, harden, and steven adams. portland drafted aldridge, lillard, and mccollum. harden was traded, and aldridge and durant both walked, but both the blazers and the thunder still have superstars to build around. the kings do not if cousins is gone.
point is, it's foolhardy to characterize the potential departure of demarcus cousins and the ensuing loss of a potential top-3 draft pick as a one-year setback. gm's certainly aren't supposed to think that way. they're meant to plan ahead for possible eventualities. again, if demarcus stays, it may not matter. but he could just as easily leave via trade or free agency, and in that scenario, vlade may well regret gambling with future first rounders.
there are a variety of scenarios that could play out, but there is definitely a point to worrying about it now. the state of the kings' future draft picks is dependent upon what happens with cuz. the franchise will certainly do everything in their power to keep him, but they can't pretend like their future draft picks don't matter.
even if cousins doesn't leave and the kings manage to earn a playoff spot, first rounders remain an important way to add cost-controlled talent to a roster, particularly when that roster is talent deficient. do playoff teams regularly find star-level players with their less-than-desirable draft position? no, not usually. but it's also not a rarity for these teams to find contributors that they can integrate into their existing game plan and team culture. the san antonio spurs immediately spring to mind. the point i'm trying to make--and i won't speak for The_Jamal, but he seems to be making a similar point--is that non-playoff teams who gamble with future first rounders almost always regret it. in this case, the new york knicks and brooklyn nets immediately spring to mind.
now, the scenario you presented could be spot on; the upcoming draft could be a total bust, and the following draft could land a hypothetical cousins-less kings team a future superstar. we just don't know, and that's why this matters. the kings have been a western conference basement-dweller for a decade, and if they continue to mismanage their assets, it's not out of the realm of possibility that they will remain in the basement for another half-decade or more. again, if the team transforms itself into a playoff contender because of a strong partnership between big cuz and coach joerger, then it may not matter at all. but after ten long years of futility, that's an awful lot to hope for, and a good gm doesn't stake the future of a franchise on hope.
even if cousins doesn't leave and the kings manage to earn a playoff spot, first rounders remain an important way to add cost-controlled talent to a roster, particularly when that roster is talent deficient. do playoff teams regularly find star-level players with their less-than-desirable draft position? no, not usually. but it's also not a rarity for these teams to find contributors that they can integrate into their existing game plan and team culture. the san antonio spurs immediately spring to mind. the point i'm trying to make--and i won't speak for The_Jamal, but he seems to be making a similar point--is that non-playoff teams who gamble with future first rounders almost always regret it. in this case, the new york knicks and brooklyn nets immediately spring to mind.
now, the scenario you presented could be spot on; the upcoming draft could be a total bust, and the following draft could land a hypothetical cousins-less kings team a future superstar. we just don't know, and that's why this matters. the kings have been a western conference basement-dweller for a decade, and if they continue to mismanage their assets, it's not out of the realm of possibility that they will remain in the basement for another half-decade or more. again, if the team transforms itself into a playoff contender because of a strong partnership between big cuz and coach joerger, then it may not matter at all. but after ten long years of futility, that's an awful lot to hope for, and a good gm doesn't stake the future of a franchise on hope.
Kings are NOT giving additional player, they are potentially giving one year of rebuild, that is it.
There is no hoping involved, but calculated gamble.
We gambled that we will not win lottery. I am fine with that.
The next thing is that if our plan A does not work (Cuz leaves), we are giving one year of rebuild and gambling pretty much 50-50 whether we end up with a better player or not.
I agree about the importance of first-rounders with both you and Jamal, but Kings scenario is not the typical scenario.
Typically these trades involves gambling on getting another player for that first rounder and if that does not work, you are in limbo where you are too good to get a good draft pick and have big contract to tie you for years. Mess gets untangled after a years. Check Hickson trade as extreme.
That is not the case here.
One year delay, that is it in the worst case (unless we win lottery this year).
There is no hoping involved, but calculated gamble.
We gambled that we will not win lottery. I am fine with that.
The next thing is that if our plan A does not work (Cuz leaves), we are giving one year of rebuild and gambling pretty much 50-50 whether we end up with a better player or not.
I agree about the importance of first-rounders with both you and Jamal, but Kings scenario is not the typical scenario.
Typically these trades involves gambling on getting another player for that first rounder and if that does not work, you are in limbo where you are too good to get a good draft pick and have big contract to tie you for years. Mess gets untangled after a years. Check Hickson trade as extreme.
That is not the case here.
One year delay, that is it in the worst case (unless we win lottery this year).
Interesting read below on Cousins
http://amicohoops.net/execs-offer-takes-on-kings-cousins-conundrum/
http://amicohoops.net/execs-offer-takes-on-kings-cousins-conundrum/
Hey, what do you know, we agree on something. I started to go through assistant coaches we have had to see where they ended up, and then it suddenly occurred to me. What "Western Conference exec" has been in the Kings lockerroom and would say such a thing? Duh. Probably particularly a problem when you fire his coach and he doesn't go for it.
Sam Amico has a long and distinguished history of getting things wrong. In addition, he actually plagiarized some items from SactownRoyalty and then tried to poo-poo it away by making some lame excuse about just trying to give them publicity since nobody reads their stuff.
He has no legitimate sources and relies on weasels who creep around and whisper things in dark alleys. Read him if you must - but please don't bring his trash here. Thanks.
He has no legitimate sources and relies on weasels who creep around and whisper things in dark alleys. Read him if you must - but please don't bring his trash here. Thanks.
What about Josh Smith?
The guy may be washed up, but the fact remains, we have a clear need for veteran bigs right now. We're playing a similar style offense to Malone, but the biggest difference I'm noticing is that we were dominant on the boards under Malone, while right now, we're ranked near the bottom of the league in rebounds (not to mention blocks). KK and Cuz may work OK with each other but they're clearly not the long term answer, and i'm not enjoying the small ball substitutions since Willie can't get his head out of his a**. Smith could probably be had for the vet minimum, and while his shot has looked broken in the years past, he does have the ability to stretch the floor and rebound. Obviously a trade for a long term solution would be best, but who knows, maybe he's still got something left in the tank.
The guy may be washed up, but the fact remains, we have a clear need for veteran bigs right now. We're playing a similar style offense to Malone, but the biggest difference I'm noticing is that we were dominant on the boards under Malone, while right now, we're ranked near the bottom of the league in rebounds (not to mention blocks). KK and Cuz may work OK with each other but they're clearly not the long term answer, and i'm not enjoying the small ball substitutions since Willie can't get his head out of his a**. Smith could probably be had for the vet minimum, and while his shot has looked broken in the years past, he does have the ability to stretch the floor and rebound. Obviously a trade for a long term solution would be best, but who knows, maybe he's still got something left in the tank.
BOS Gets: Anthony Morrow, Ben McLemore, Kosta Koufos, & Willie Cauley-Stein
BOS Gives: Kelly Olynyk, Terry Rozier, Tyler Zeller, & BOS 2019 1st (Lottery Protected)
CHI Gets: Kelly Olynyk, Omri Casspi, & BOS 2019 1st (Lottery Protected)
CHI Gives: Bobby Portis, Michael Carter-Williams, & changing Kings' 2017 1st protection to Top 12 protected (was Top 10)
OKC Gets: Rudy Gay & Ty Lawson
OKC Gives: Anthony Morrow, Cameron Payne, & Kyle Singler
SAC Gets: Bobby Portis, Cameron Payne, Kyle Singler, Michael Carter-Williams, Terry Rozier, Tyler Zeller, & increased protection to Top 12 on Kings' 2017 1st
SAC Gives: Ben McLemore, Kosta Koufos, Omri Casspi, Rudy Gay, Ty Lawson, & Willie Cauley-Stein
I'd probably be hesitant to do this trade as I think it would make us worse this year, but overall, I think it would be a nice return for 4 expirings, Koufos, & Cauley-Stein, and would make sure we're not bleeding talent next year. Also, Rozier, Payne, & Portis have shown good potential in the minutes they have received thus far and all project to be excellent fits next to Cousins. We need more talent, and signing that talent may be difficult, so acquiring players with potential and having Joerger develop them may be the best way to form a formidable team around Cousins. Increasing the likelihood that we keep our 2017 1st is also very important as it gives us another shot at bringing in a game changer.
If we were to make this trade, draft Tatum/Isaac with our 2017 1st, & steal Otto Porter away from the Wizards with a hefty offer sheet, we would have 2 young players with good potential at every position.
PG - Rozier/Payne
SG - Bogdanovic/Richardson
SF - Porter/Isaac
PF - Portis/Labissiere
C - Cousins/Papagiannis
That team would suddenly have a future, and won that has the potential to be a very good team in the west if Joerger can develop a lot of these kids to reach their potential.
I will acknowledge that adding a lot of these kids is risky in that it might make us not competitive in the beginning which might force Cousins out of town. However, I'm finding it tougher and tougher to see where we will be able to acquire enough talent to become a top 4 seed/compete for a championship. If it comes down to keeping Cousins and topping out as a bottom tier playoff team vs. trading Cousins and acquiring young assets to start over/try again, I lean towards trading Cousins. Having said that, if Cousins buys into this movement, understands the vision/goal, and is willing to resign with us, there's no way I'm moving the best C in the game.
I think that core would be a great defensive unit with shooters all around Cousins to make his life easier. I even think we could surprise some people looking as how Rozier, Porter, & Portis can all contribute now while guys like Payne, Bogdanovic, & Labissiere could be X factors if they are ready to contribute to a winning team next year. Obviously, we'd still have Temple & Barnes under contract to help bridge the gap between players ready to contribute and those that might need a little more time, but the hope is to really build towards a team that can potentially challenge for a top seed in the West.
Trying to build our team exclusively through free agency (hoping we can land that big time free agent) is also a very risky move looking at our past history. Acquiring some young players with good potential and focusing on development may not only be the best way to build a talented team around Cousins, but it is low risk in that it leaves us with the right type of assets in case we have to move on from Cousins.
BOS Gives: Kelly Olynyk, Terry Rozier, Tyler Zeller, & BOS 2019 1st (Lottery Protected)
CHI Gets: Kelly Olynyk, Omri Casspi, & BOS 2019 1st (Lottery Protected)
CHI Gives: Bobby Portis, Michael Carter-Williams, & changing Kings' 2017 1st protection to Top 12 protected (was Top 10)
OKC Gets: Rudy Gay & Ty Lawson
OKC Gives: Anthony Morrow, Cameron Payne, & Kyle Singler
SAC Gets: Bobby Portis, Cameron Payne, Kyle Singler, Michael Carter-Williams, Terry Rozier, Tyler Zeller, & increased protection to Top 12 on Kings' 2017 1st
SAC Gives: Ben McLemore, Kosta Koufos, Omri Casspi, Rudy Gay, Ty Lawson, & Willie Cauley-Stein
I'd probably be hesitant to do this trade as I think it would make us worse this year, but overall, I think it would be a nice return for 4 expirings, Koufos, & Cauley-Stein, and would make sure we're not bleeding talent next year. Also, Rozier, Payne, & Portis have shown good potential in the minutes they have received thus far and all project to be excellent fits next to Cousins. We need more talent, and signing that talent may be difficult, so acquiring players with potential and having Joerger develop them may be the best way to form a formidable team around Cousins. Increasing the likelihood that we keep our 2017 1st is also very important as it gives us another shot at bringing in a game changer.
If we were to make this trade, draft Tatum/Isaac with our 2017 1st, & steal Otto Porter away from the Wizards with a hefty offer sheet, we would have 2 young players with good potential at every position.
PG - Rozier/Payne
SG - Bogdanovic/Richardson
SF - Porter/Isaac
PF - Portis/Labissiere
C - Cousins/Papagiannis
That team would suddenly have a future, and won that has the potential to be a very good team in the west if Joerger can develop a lot of these kids to reach their potential.
I will acknowledge that adding a lot of these kids is risky in that it might make us not competitive in the beginning which might force Cousins out of town. However, I'm finding it tougher and tougher to see where we will be able to acquire enough talent to become a top 4 seed/compete for a championship. If it comes down to keeping Cousins and topping out as a bottom tier playoff team vs. trading Cousins and acquiring young assets to start over/try again, I lean towards trading Cousins. Having said that, if Cousins buys into this movement, understands the vision/goal, and is willing to resign with us, there's no way I'm moving the best C in the game.
I think that core would be a great defensive unit with shooters all around Cousins to make his life easier. I even think we could surprise some people looking as how Rozier, Porter, & Portis can all contribute now while guys like Payne, Bogdanovic, & Labissiere could be X factors if they are ready to contribute to a winning team next year. Obviously, we'd still have Temple & Barnes under contract to help bridge the gap between players ready to contribute and those that might need a little more time, but the hope is to really build towards a team that can potentially challenge for a top seed in the West.
Trying to build our team exclusively through free agency (hoping we can land that big time free agent) is also a very risky move looking at our past history. Acquiring some young players with good potential and focusing on development may not only be the best way to build a talented team around Cousins, but it is low risk in that it leaves us with the right type of assets in case we have to move on from Cousins.
I don't want to be too critical, but in general, I don't like multiplayer/multiteam trades. Way too complicated to pull off. Hell, it's hard enough to get one team on board for a trade sometimes, much less four teams. Plus, I want no part of Michael Carter-Williams. I don't like guards that can't shoot. Not to mention, we end up with three PG's in that deal. Find a way to get us Portis and Porter and I'm happy with the deal. The best way to solve our PG problem is through the draft, or maybe through freeagency next offseason. Personally, if we manage to resign Collison, then I'd like to draft a PG over 6'3".
This next draft should be loaded with PG's, most of which are of the taller variety. Lonzo Ball - 6'6", Frank Jackson - 6'3", De'Aaron Fox - 6'3", Isaiah Brisco - 6'3", Markelle Fultz - 6'4", and Dennis Smith - 6'3". All these guys are likely to play in the NBA, and many of them will become starters. There are some dark horses like Northwestern's Bryant McIntosh who will surprise some people. Point is, this next draft could fill our need for a very good PG, so we should figure out a way to nab one of them.
This next draft should be loaded with PG's, most of which are of the taller variety. Lonzo Ball - 6'6", Frank Jackson - 6'3", De'Aaron Fox - 6'3", Isaiah Brisco - 6'3", Markelle Fultz - 6'4", and Dennis Smith - 6'3". All these guys are likely to play in the NBA, and many of them will become starters. There are some dark horses like Northwestern's Bryant McIntosh who will surprise some people. Point is, this next draft could fill our need for a very good PG, so we should figure out a way to nab one of them.
Trust me. I want no part of Carter-Williams either. He is strictly filler in this trade, and he would be our 4th PG behind Collison, Rozier, & Payne and would be considered an expiring.
And if this trade were to happen, I don't think you see Collison coming back as you'd be moving forward with Rozier, Payne, & possibly another rookie PG (if we think he's far and away the best player available to take). There's also quite a few SFs that are projected to go in the lottery (Jackson, Tatum, & Isaac). If we can solve our PG rotation through a trade like this, targeting one of those guys at SF would help balance the roster.
If we don't make the trade above, I think we have to try and retain Collison and do exactly what you're recommending (that is if we still have our 2017 1st). If we end up keeping our pick, waive Afflalo, waive Tolliver, don't extend a qualifying offer to McLemore , & give up our bird rights to Gay, we'd have roughly $30-$37 mil in cap space (I'm not sure how the cap hold would work for Bogdanovic so maybe Capt. can help me out here). That's still enough to go get a guy like Porter or (if we can pull it off) Hayward. Who knows? Maybe we can land Porter in FA and have a team that looks like this going into next year:
PG - Collison / Fox
SG - Temple / Bogdanovic / Richardson
SF - Porter / Barnes
PF - Cauley-Stein / Labissiere
C - Cousins / Koufos / Papagiannis
That team still has a lot of youth, and how far we go as team will be decided by how good we are at developing Fox, Bogdanovic, Richardson, Porter, Cauley-Stein, Labissiere, & Papagiannis.
And if this trade were to happen, I don't think you see Collison coming back as you'd be moving forward with Rozier, Payne, & possibly another rookie PG (if we think he's far and away the best player available to take). There's also quite a few SFs that are projected to go in the lottery (Jackson, Tatum, & Isaac). If we can solve our PG rotation through a trade like this, targeting one of those guys at SF would help balance the roster.
If we don't make the trade above, I think we have to try and retain Collison and do exactly what you're recommending (that is if we still have our 2017 1st). If we end up keeping our pick, waive Afflalo, waive Tolliver, don't extend a qualifying offer to McLemore , & give up our bird rights to Gay, we'd have roughly $30-$37 mil in cap space (I'm not sure how the cap hold would work for Bogdanovic so maybe Capt. can help me out here). That's still enough to go get a guy like Porter or (if we can pull it off) Hayward. Who knows? Maybe we can land Porter in FA and have a team that looks like this going into next year:
PG - Collison / Fox
SG - Temple / Bogdanovic / Richardson
SF - Porter / Barnes
PF - Cauley-Stein / Labissiere
C - Cousins / Koufos / Papagiannis
That team still has a lot of youth, and how far we go as team will be decided by how good we are at developing Fox, Bogdanovic, Richardson, Porter, Cauley-Stein, Labissiere, & Papagiannis.
How about Serge Ibaka. He would spread the floor for DMC while keeping us big and can guard stretch 4s. Orlando is struggling and Serge will be a FA I think by December they look to trade him id offer WCS/Tolliver for Ibaka/2nd. This would make our big rotation DMC, Ibaka, and Koufos. To combat the loss of WCS we'd resign Ibaka to 4 year deal and by than Skal will be primed and ready to start and impact. I think Skal has way more potential than WCS.
Ibaka seems to be in decline which begs the question is he actually 27? He might be older than what is reported. There's also the concern that Ibaka could very well walk next year for nothing and we're left with neither Ibaka or Cauley-Stein.
There's no doubt in my mind that this trade would make us a better team this year, but it's definitely risky as we could easily be bleeding talent next year.
PG - Collison (32 min) / Temple (16 min) / Lawson
SG - Temple (10 min) / Afflalo (28 min) / Barnes (10 min) / McLemore
SF - Gay (34 min) / Barnes (14 min) / Richardson
PF - Ibaka (28 min) / Casspi (20 min) / Labissiere
C - Cousins (34 min) / Koufos (14 min) / Papagiannis
Cousins - 34 min
Gay - 34 min
Collison - 32 min
Afflalo - 28 min
Ibaka - 28 min
Temple - 26 min
Barnes - 24 min
Casspi - 20 min
Koufos - 14 min
It's definitely an interesting idea...
There's no doubt in my mind that this trade would make us a better team this year, but it's definitely risky as we could easily be bleeding talent next year.
PG - Collison (32 min) / Temple (16 min) / Lawson
SG - Temple (10 min) / Afflalo (28 min) / Barnes (10 min) / McLemore
SF - Gay (34 min) / Barnes (14 min) / Richardson
PF - Ibaka (28 min) / Casspi (20 min) / Labissiere
C - Cousins (34 min) / Koufos (14 min) / Papagiannis
Cousins - 34 min
Gay - 34 min
Collison - 32 min
Afflalo - 28 min
Ibaka - 28 min
Temple - 26 min
Barnes - 24 min
Casspi - 20 min
Koufos - 14 min
It's definitely an interesting idea...
K
If we can't get Portis what do you think of RaShaun Holmes instead he's on a killer deal (making l mil over 3-4 season per) and I think he could be a 10/10 guy with good D (he was a DPOY in his conference in college) he would actually be a bigger version of everything we ever wanted when we drafted T-Rob.
If we trade Cousins, what about a Zach LaVine centered trade? I don't know if Minnesota does that, but a KAT-Cousins frontcourt HAS to interest them right?
DeMarcus Cousins+ Ben McLemore for Zach LaVine+ 2017 1st round pick+Pekovic(filler and mentor for Papa)
Zach LaVine is a potential star in the making. Elite 3pt shooter who's continually improving on his handles. His basketball IQ went from extremely questionable, to above average. He's an extremely athletic and quick player.
Do you guys think Minnesota would consider a Cousins trade? They have a young core who can grow together in Dunn, LaVine, Wiggins, and KAT. But pairing up Cousins next to KAT has to cross their mind right?
DeMarcus Cousins+ Ben McLemore for Zach LaVine+ 2017 1st round pick+Pekovic(filler and mentor for Papa)
Zach LaVine is a potential star in the making. Elite 3pt shooter who's continually improving on his handles. His basketball IQ went from extremely questionable, to above average. He's an extremely athletic and quick player.
Do you guys think Minnesota would consider a Cousins trade? They have a young core who can grow together in Dunn, LaVine, Wiggins, and KAT. But pairing up Cousins next to KAT has to cross their mind right?
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