Yao

Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#31
#31
Um...I am highly confused here why people are talking about us acquiring Yao for his ending contract, and then talking about us sending back Dalembert and Landry -- two ending contracts -- the other way. That would accomplish absolutely nothing for us. Do people not understand the value of acquiring ending contracts is in sending away NON-ending contracts?

If we are going to get involved in a mess like that, and its some sort of big threeway, I need it to involve Landry, unfortunately Daly -- people are idiots for wantiong to move that asset after we finally have it, but you have to pay -- one of our SFs, and then bring back Wallace and Lowry, although I know we probably end up with Brooks instead. Let it be Jordan's way of bringing his fincancial house in order while its our our way of adding two starters and suddenly solidifying our lineup. Otherwise, it makes no sense. The only reason to pick up Yao is to use his ending contract. The only way you use his ending contract is by trading back your own longterm contracts. Our only longterm contracts are Beno, Cisco, and the kids. Which one of Beno/Cisco do you think the Rockets, loaded with PGs and SFs, would want? So you're going to give up kids for Yao's ender? I don't think so unless the Maloofs are so totally broke they had better just sell the team, as they would be destroying its future.
 
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L

Larry David

Starter
#34
#34
Bricklayer said:
Um...I am highly confused here why people are talking about us acquiring Yao for his ending contract, and then talking about us sending back Dalembert and Landry -- two ending contracts -- the other way. That would accomplish absolutely nothing for us. Do people not understand the value of acquiring ending contracts is in sending away NON-ending contracts?

If we are going to get involved in a mess like that, and its some sort of big threeway, I need it to involve Landry, unfortunately Daly -- people are idiots for wantiong to move that asset after we finally have it, but you have to pay -- one of our SFs, and then bring back Wallace and Lowry, although I know we probably end up with Brooks instead. Let it be Jordan's way of bringing his fincancial house in order while its our our way of adding two starters and suddenly solidifying our lineup. Otherwise, it makes no sense. The only reason to pick up Yao is to use his ending contract. The only way you use his ending contract is by trading back your own longterm contracts. Our only longterm contracts are Beno, Cisco, and the kids. Which one of Beno/Cisco do you think the Rockets, loaded with PGs and SFs, would want? So you're going to give up kids for Yao's ender? I don't think so unless the Maloofs are so totally broke they had better just sell the team, as they would be destroying its future.
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To be clear, I'm not saying that I would do this trade but I think I know why the Rockets pick up the phone and I can see why the Maloofs would do it. Simply to save cash.

Because the Maloofs are either so broke or so adverse to adding salary before the new CBA or both, I don't think the Kings would view it as burning an asset (I would and I agree with you Brick that they are.) Like you said, the whole point of a big expiring is to say, "Hey team X, we'll take (good player with long term deal) for this ender. Thanks." But if you aren't prepared to add a large long term contract, then you can't use it that way. And I'm willing to bet the Maloofs aren't going to let Petrie use the expirings the proper way. In fact, they on record saying they won't add long term deals before a new CBA. Instead, at the deadline, we will probably make a trade or two where team X sends us $3 million dollars, team X sends a player making a lot but with less than 3 million to be paid on his deal for the year, and we'll waive him and keep the change. (Ie - the same trade we always make with a tax team.)

If the Kings have already decided they can't use an expiring to take on salary, and the season is going nowhere, and you aren't going to resign two guys that you aren't starting but make a ton... I could see how they justify dumping a ton of salary for non-basketball reasons.

It's not a good trade for the team, but that's not why they would make it. It would be another salary dump.

I don't think the Rockets want or would play Garcia, but to get two decent posts on enders for nothing, I think they would suck up 2 years of Cisco (not taking option for 3rd.)

PS - I think this season enders are worth slightly less than past years because there is a chance no games are played next season. Nobody knows for sure, but you see a lot of 2 years of pain for one trades. If there is a 30/50% chance both contracts will end up expiring before the next CBA, you are less pressed to make that trade. Also, often the issue is tax and not cap, and nobody knows if the tax is going to change or go away (a lot of owners would like a way to keep salary down without giving their money to Sterling) With all of those issue up in the air, I think contracts that end this year are less valuable than past years.
 
'89 Kings Fan

'89 Kings Fan

Bench
#35
#35
Bricklayer said:
Um...I am highly confused here why people are talking about us acquiring Yao for his ending contract, and then talking about us sending back Dalembert and Landry -- two ending contracts -- the other way. That would accomplish absolutely nothing for us. Do people not understand the value of acquiring ending contracts is in sending away NON-ending contracts?
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It would save the Maloofs $8 million though:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...rockets-yao-ming-being-dangled-in-trade-talks

Considering the fact that the NBA minimum team salary requirement is $43,533,000 and we are paying $43,798,401, I would say that is a very good chance we acquire Yao. The reason Houston does it is twofold, one they drop below the luxury tax and two help with the playoff push.

The deal would probably be:
Yao+Patterson->Dalembert+Landry which would drop the Rockets below the luxury tax.

The only question now is can some other team outbid us. Luckily for the Maloofs no other team under the salary cap has more then $5 Million in expiring contracts.
 
L

Larry David

Starter
#36
#36
'89 Kings Fan said:
It would save the Maloofs $8 million though:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...rockets-yao-ming-being-dangled-in-trade-talks

Considering the fact that the NBA minimum team salary requirement is $43,533,000 and we are paying $43,798,401, I would say that is a very good chance we acquire Yao. The reason Houston does it is twofold, one they drop below the luxury tax and two help with the playoff push.

The deal would probably be:
Yao+Patterson->Dalembert+Landry which would drop the Rockets below the luxury tax.

The only question now is can some other team outbid us. Luckily for the Maloofs no other team under the salary cap has more then $5 Million in expiring contracts.
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Agree 100% with this. That's probably the trade (good call on both Patterson and the math), the only question is whether the Maloofs want to do it.

And if Tyreke shuts it down, it probably makes it easier for them to pull the trigger.
 
sidney

sidney

Starter
#37
#37
UK_King said:
Be great if we could somehow end up with Wallace and Brooks.

never going to happen but we can dream.
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Something like:
Kings get:
Brooks
Wallace
Najera

Rockets get:
Landry
Mohammad (expiring)

Bobcats get:
Yao
Casspi

Rockets and Bobcats both get an asset and save money. Kings take on a lot more salary but win in talent (Brooks + Wallace > Casspi + Landry). Seems highly unlikely though for several reasons. Hard to imagine where our interest in Yao plays into this.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#38
#38
UK_King said:
Looks like a non starter because the rockets will only deal with Cousins involved.
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According to who? I don't buy it, the Rockets would never be dumb enough to even suggest that, at least I would hope. If they think they can get a talent like Cousins they're in la la land.
 
Entity

Entity

Hall of Famer
#40
#40
Lafayette said:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2ezc4fm

Here you go!

I don't know if it helps the Bobcats much but then again it doesn't hurt. They lose Jackson and keep Wallace.
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So we trade Beno, Garcia, Landry and Dalembert for half a year rental Brooks and Diaw. leaving us with Brooks, Evans, Head and Jeter for the guard positions? no thanks I'd like to keep Beno or Garcia until something better comes along.
 
L

Lafayette

Guest
#41
#41
Entity said:
So we trade Beno, Garcia, Landry and Dalembert for half a year rental Brooks and Diaw. leaving us with Brooks, Evans, Head and Jeter for the guard positions? no thanks I'd like to keep Beno or Garcia until something better comes along.
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Well you have to look at it as we get Brooks to run along side Tyreke and we cut the contracts of Beno and Garcia and Yao along with Diaw and for a team not going anywhere anytime soon this season then it's a win win with HUGE salaries coming off the books and freeing the team up.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#42
#42
Lafayette said:
Well you have to look at it as we get Brooks to run along side Tyreke and we cut the contracts of Beno and Garcia and Yao along with Diaw and for a team not going anywhere anytime soon this season then it's a win win with HUGE salaries coming off the books and freeing the team up.
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There is actually a point where you can cut too many salaries. Meaning that there is noLeBron/Wade etc. class of FAs coming up this summer, and even if there were they wouldn't be collecting here no matter how much cap room we have. And so having big room is good, but we are not going to be able to do this one on a pure cap room theory. We can't scrap it all and build from the ground up ala Miami. So what we need instead is some decent trade pieces to go with a pile of cap room, because trades using that room are proabably going to net us more talent than pure free agency, and few teams, no matter how desperate, are going to dump a big player on you for nothign but capspace over a summer.
 
Gary

Gary

All-Star
#43
#43
Bricklayer said:
Um...I am highly confused here why people are talking about us acquiring Yao for his ending contract, and then talking about us sending back Dalembert and Landry -- two ending contracts -- the other way. That would accomplish absolutely nothing for us. Do people not understand the value of acquiring ending contracts is in sending away NON-ending contracts?

If we are going to get involved in a mess like that, and its some sort of big threeway, I need it to involve Landry, unfortunately Daly -- people are idiots for wantiong to move that asset after we finally have it, but you have to pay -- one of our SFs, and then bring back Wallace and Lowry, although I know we probably end up with Brooks instead. Let it be Jordan's way of bringing his fincancial house in order while its our our way of adding two starters and suddenly solidifying our lineup. Otherwise, it makes no sense. The only reason to pick up Yao is to use his ending contract. The only way you use his ending contract is by trading back your own longterm contracts. Our only longterm contracts are Beno, Cisco, and the kids. Which one of Beno/Cisco do you think the Rockets, loaded with PGs and SFs, would want? So you're going to give up kids for Yao's ender? I don't think so unless the Maloofs are so totally broke they had better just sell the team, as they would be destroying its future.
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If the whole point of this is to get Brooks though then I would be all for it.. If it's just to give them two expiring contracts then I say now, and that it doesn't make sense like you said.
 
MassachusettsKingsFan

MassachusettsKingsFan

All-Star
#44
#44
I may be in the minority here, but at this point in time I am not looking to move or dump Beno. I think he can fit in with this team long and short term. Short term as a starter, long term as an excellent bench weapon. I think if you looked at other PG's around the league Beno fits somewhere into the top 20 or so offensively, and his defense is OK when he tries. Early in the season it was bad, but after getting benched and then returning to the starting lineup it has been much better.


I would take Beno over Brooks any day.
 
Sptsjunkie

Sptsjunkie

Starter
#46
#46
If we're talking about a 3 way trade with the Rockets, Kings and Bobcats, here's a little interesting statistical comparison. Figuring what the kings need is a PG who can create some and hit open 3s.
3 point% & Assist Rate

Udrih: 31.5% (career 35%) & 24.44%

Augustine: 36.9% (career 40%) & 31.1%

Brooks: 37.5% (career 37.9% & 23.73%

So overall, Augustine would seem to be a big upgrade in the two percentages we are looking for the most help in. Brooks seems to be a minor upgrade, but on paper he doesn’t appear to be an ideal fit.
 
R

rainingbuckets

Prospect
#48
#48
SacTownKid said:
According to who? I don't buy it, the Rockets would never be dumb enough to even suggest that, at least I would hope. If they think they can get a talent like Cousins they're in la la land.
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Dalembert and Cousins for Yao? They must be out of their minds.

To further add to sacgirl88's post:
"The Rockets, looking to use Yao Ming's $17.7 million expiring contract to add a potential star or two to its roster, recently called Sacramento and offered the 7-foot-6 center for Samuel Dalembert and DeMarcus Cousins. The Kings had no interest, and are definitely not trading Cousins anywhere, according to sources.

Despite its poor record, Sacramento (5-23) likes its future with young building blocks Cousins and Tyreke Evans. Whatever the new salary cap is after the next collective bargaining agreement, the Kings will be far beneath it and could have more money to spend in free agency than just about any other team. So if they do make any trades this season, they won't be ones in which they add lots of salary."

ESPN - http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/23289/camby-wants-to-stay-in-portland
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#49
#49
RookieOfTheDay said:
Brooks averaged almost 20 and 5 when he played 30-35 minutes a game. Beno in similar minutes averages about 12 and 5. I like Beno (don't like his contract) but Brooks is clearly a big upgrade as far as scoring goes. Brooks as starting PG and Beno as back up PG would be pretty nice.
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Brooks will not be averaging 20ppg here. That does not work. It simply DOES NOT WORK. Any effort to get a 20ppg guard to pay alongside Reke is foolish in the extreme. Not happening anymore than it did with Kevin. I will point again and again to the complete lack of history of that sort of pairing in the NBA, again and again to the history of the players who play alongside either the DWades or the GPaytons, and its just not happening. Brooks is quick, and he shoots threes. But he is a 16ppg scorer for us. And a gunner too -- by far the most valuable three point shooters for us are those who are going to be able to spot up and catch and shoot off of Cousins kickouts or Reke drive and kicks. Brooks is a quick little waterbug who likes to do it off his own drible, which is to say not ina way that really helps create space for our young stars.
 
steelevt

steelevt

All-Star
#50
#50
Bricklayer said:
Brooks will not be averaging 20ppg here. That does not work. It simply DOES NOT WORK. Any effort to get a 20ppg guard to pay alongside Reke is foolish in the extreme. Not happening anymore than it did with Kevin. I will point again and again to the complete lack of history of that sort of pairing in the NBA, again and again to the history of the players who play alongside either the DWades or the GPaytons, and its just not happening. Brooks is quick, and he shoots threes. But he is a 16ppg scorer for us. And a gunner too -- by far the most valuable three point shooters for us are those who are going to be able to spot up and catch and shoot off of Cousins kickouts or Reke drive and kicks. Brooks is a quick little waterbug who likes to do it off his own drible, which is to say not ina way that really helps create space for our young stars.
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i understand your theory and the history that backs it up. but wouldnt it have been nice to have a scorer in general the last 4 games when our offense was producing nothing in the 4th. i know you say that history proves that a back court pair that avg 20 pts has never won a championship or whatever but if tyreke is 1-9 and cousins is turning it over when he gets his hands on the ball, wouldnt it be nice to have another scoring option? we might not need brooks or whoever to be a 20+ ppg player but we need a better player than what we have
 
L

Larry David

Starter
#51
#51
I agree with Brick, but with a little twist. It's not just that Brooks and Evans both score 20. It's that they both need the ball in their hands to get their points.

I'm not in the Evans is long term PG camp, but you could pair him with a player like Ray Allen (back when he was a big points guy) because Allen is going to do a lot of his damage without a dribble and off the ball.

I think it could work with a top level guy like Nash or Paul because those players can keep the flow going while getting another player set up.

But Brooks and Evans involves a lot of those players pounding the rock and trying to get their own. Cousins will require post touches ... so to make that team work - your 3 man and 4 man have to be good defenders and rebounders who don't need many touches or to work with the dribble to score. I mean, you can do that ... but thats two tough slots to fill.

Unless you draft Irving, you might be better off trying to get a star 3 or 4 in the draft and settle for a better Steve Blake type player at PG. (Beno's not that guy.)

As for the Yao thing, people have to realize the team that takes Yao isn't doing it for basketall reasons. For any team, it would only be a salary dump.
 
MassachusettsKingsFan

MassachusettsKingsFan

All-Star
#52
#52
Larry David said:
I agree with Brick, but with a little twist. It's not just that Brooks and Evans both score 20. It's that they both need the ball in their hands to get their points.

I'm not in the Evans is long term PG camp, but you could pair him with a player like Ray Allen (back when he was a big points guy) because Allen is going to do a lot of his damage without a dribble and off the ball.

I think it could work with a top level guy like Nash or Paul because those players can keep the flow going while getting another player set up.

But Brooks and Evans involves a lot of those players pounding the rock and trying to get their own. Cousins will require post touches ... so to make that team work - your 3 man and 4 man have to be good defenders and rebounders who don't need many touches or to work with the dribble to score. I mean, you can do that ... but thats two tough slots to fill.

Unless you draft Irving, you might be better off trying to get a star 3 or 4 in the draft and settle for a better Steve Blake type player at PG. (Beno's not that guy.)

As for the Yao thing, people have to realize the team that takes Yao isn't doing it for basketall reasons. For any team, it would only be a salary dump.
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Brick pretty much made my argument against Brooks. He didnt say he thought Beno was better, but I do for those reasons.

Now we have Steve Blake. Beno is much better than him. He's even a better defender which is saying something.

Beno isnt the best 3pt shooter, but he is a very good shooter. Every jumper doesnt have to be a 3.

And Im not saying Beno is the long term answer as the guy next to Reke. He isnt. But im not going to give up anything to trade for a guy who is worse, or sign someone who is worse. He's very good in his role right now. He rarely tries to do to much and never complains about shots. When we finally do replace Udrih, I want a guy who can do what he does on offense ( or better ) and play very good defense. If we dont find that guy, then making a change seems kind of pointless.

Aaron Brooks and Steve Blake are not the answer. I would very much like to see Kyrie Irving in a Kings uniform next year though :)
 
L

Larry David

Starter
#53
#53
We agree. Beno isn't a long term fix because he doesn't shoot the 3 well enough nor is he enough of a play maker to run a good team. Until Evans becomes a much better shooter, the PG needs help space the court with 3 point shooting. Beno's 20 footers aren't enough. Those 4 feet are a huge difference.

But he's better than Blake. My point is that the Kings can get away with a player that only hits open 3s, passes the ball, and works in space. Thus, I said a better Blake. In fact, a Fisher type player would be a great fit. (Not at his age, but the game.)

I'm talking just about a guy that runs an offense, hits open 3s, and works without the ball. Heck, even a Kenny Smith during the Rockets run would work. Unless they are adding a top top level PG, it's a lot more about fit than numbers.
 
Fear the Putin

Fear the Putin

Starter
#54
#54
The only reason any team should want Yao at this point is to free up salary.

He is 30. Not only is he on the downside of his career, but he has chronic foot injuries and we don't even know if he will ever be able to play again consistently.

Dally and Cousins for Yao? That's just insulting.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#55
#55
I couldn't help but to almost puke in my mouth when I saw Houston asking for Dalembert + Cousins for a Yao Ming that hasn't played more than 50 games in god knows how long. Anyways, I was very ecstatic to see that the Kings had no intentions of pursuing Yao, but then again that might not be true. You just never know with Petrie, so I will try to no get too excited just yet. I am not sure why everybody is assuming that the Kings are looking to give up on Cousins 30 games into the season. Come on now, child please media reporters.
 
N

Nighthawk1

Starter
#56
#56
It makes sense they would want a young prospect/potential star or two back for Yao. Basically Yao is major cap relief for most teams. They have no reason to trade him for expirings because that would be negating the purpose of trading him when they can reap the rewards of his potential insured contract. Rockets hold the chips on this one and it's a prime market to collect.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#57
#57
I saw something on RealGM that mentioned nobody on the Rockets team is untouchable. They are trying to get a star player on their team.
 
Sptsjunkie

Sptsjunkie

Starter
#58
#58
Nighthawk1 said:
It makes sense they would want a young prospect/potential star or two back for Yao. Basically Yao is major cap relief for most teams. They have no reason to trade him for expirings because that would be negating the purpose of trading him when they can reap the rewards of his potential insured contract. Rockets hold the chips on this one and it's a prime market to collect.
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We'll see what Morey can do, but I would be surprised if they get much back for him. Maybe a late first round pick and a marginal young player with some upside (but not star potential). The problem is Yao makes 17 million this year. We can trade for him since we are way under the cap and can just absorb the difference between him and the players we send to Houston.

However, with most other teams, the Rockets would have to take back 17 million dollars in contracts. This means they would probably have to take back several cap damaging contracts to acquire a player of any worth (e.g. a Gerald Wallce type). If all they are willing to do is take back mostly expiring contracts, it's doubtful most teams will sacrifice a player of much worth to save a couple million dollars.
 
Sptsjunkie

Sptsjunkie

Starter
#59
#59
kingsboi said:
I saw something on RealGM that mentioned nobody on the Rockets team is untouchable. They are trying to get a star player on their team.
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The problem for them is none of their assets are worth a star player. If a team is ready to blow things up and start over, they're not taking back Martin, Scola, and Battier. They might have some interest in Brooks, but right now Houston is doing the same foot-dragging on rebuilding that we did a few years back. They are stuck in no man's land and I think Morey is starting to realize that.
 
L

Larry David

Starter
#60
#60
Sptsjunkie said:
However, with most other teams, the Rockets would have to take back 17 million dollars in contracts. .
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Nope. They will have two huge exceptions. Right now they have a 6.3 from the Lee trade. They will probably get another 5 for Yao.

Nobody will trade for Yao until after the mid-point. At which time, he'll have less than 8 million on his deal with the team having to pay 1/2 of his salary because of the injury insurance. So a team could trade anywhere between 8 million and well over 20 million in contracts to the Rockets and pay less than 4 million in salary this seaon after the deal. (On the low end there would be no savings, but as you go up the saving are huge.)

The Rockets are looking for a team to do this for non-basketball reasons where the Rockets take a player(s) of a team's hands and the other team gets little more than a lower payroll (not cap space, salary)
 
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