Would You Draft Cousins at #5
- Thread starter Purple Reign
- Start date
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I tend to at least start from what was reported, and then go from there. And what was reported was the immaturity of J Will. And the "lack of discipline" certainly goes with immaturity, doesn't it? Thanks, by the way, for allowing me to believe whatever I want.
It doesn't really matter what was reported - Petrie never once said anything about Williams' immaturity being a reason for the trade so I don't know that we'll ever know the answer.
What I do know is that the day it was reported I was onboard because Bibby was clearly a better player and a better fit, if less exciting.
And again, Cousins may have some attitude issues (his teammate saying he has "temper tantrums" is a clear sign that he does) but don't forget that Jason Williams was suspended THREE times in his one season at Florida before being kicked out completely for drug use.
Not really an apples to apples comparison.
yes but he should lose weight, his body fat is 16.5 he should be 10-
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Not to nic pic, but if he gets into top NBA shape, its possible that he'll actually gain a little weight, or possibly stay the same. When your working out your converting fat into muscle. And muscle weighs more than fat. So you might lose at first, but then its not unusual to gain some back.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Your quite welcome! I'm not so sure if J.Will's problem was lack of maturity. I think it had more to do with his upbringing. I mean he had trouble everywhere he went. And remember, he was 23 years old when the Kings drafted him. I'm not quite sure where immaturity ends and imprinting begins. But with J. Will, I think it was the latter. My personal incident occurred when he was 25. So he was hardly a kid then.
I suspose you could project Cousins into a J. Will outcome. But I don't think thats fair to him. Remember, Florida was J. Will's last chance and managed to blow that. He was suspended from two schools. Cousins may have had his moments, but he's never been suspended, or kicked out of a game.
I had a childhood that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I was basicly thrown away, for lack of a better way of putting it. And had it not been for a couple of people in my life, god knows where I might have ended up. Actually, maybe I should give all the credit to God. So maybe because of my personal background, and being the wise old bastard that I've become, I look on these kids a little bit different than some others do. Because back when I had put myself into a position where everything could have gone south for me. One person stepped in and saw something in me that no one else saw. So I'm not so quick to condemm. That doesn't make me right in my judgement. But I would rather error on the side of believing in someone than condemming someone.
King-Da-Yah
Starter
Good point Baja... You are the Yoda of KingsFans.com!
I am looking at Cousins the same way, and he is still my guy until he proves me wrong, I think he is going to be a very special player, and his overblown attitude will only get better with time.
Hey if you get a chance could you PM me that J Will story?
I am looking at Cousins the same way, and he is still my guy until he proves me wrong, I think he is going to be a very special player, and his overblown attitude will only get better with time.
Hey if you get a chance could you PM me that J Will story?
Kingster
Hall of Famer
This is a business decision; not a social project. I think it's great that people adopt troubled children. But that doesn't mean that I'd want to go into business with those children The last things the Kings management is going to be thinking about is how they can help Cousins out if his childishness by drafting him.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I'm curious. If the Kings didn't go through the Artest fiasco, do you think management would be significantly more likely to ignore Cousins' perceived shortcomings? Do you think that management can just move the Artest memory to the closet and not have some association with their perception of Cousins? You can say apples to oranges, but come on, there is an anger problem there with Artest, and at least a perceived one with Cousins. Hasn't the thought at least crossed your mind? My take is that if the Kings are on the tipping point with their decision on Cousins, the Artest experience will make them say, "NO"! The burden is on Cousins to prove himself, not the other way around.
hammystyle
Starter
Its not a charity case. The thinking would be, this guy is a tremendous basketball player with a size and talent combination that we can not acquire anywhere else. Can we provide him a support system that will help him overcome the maturity and work ethic issues?
Cousins is virtually a sure-thing production wise. He was one of the most productive players in recent college basketball history on a per minute basis. Even if he's a huge pain in the ***, he's probly going to be a pain in the *** getting 20-10 every night.
When we were dreaming of a situation between hoosing betwen him and Favors, I liked Favors. Because I think the production is going to be the similar and Favors by all accounts is a humble, hard working kid with a great attitude. If we're comparing Cousins to guys who are just not likely to be anywhere near as good him on the basketball court, it becomes much easier to roll the dice a bit.
Last edited:
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Look! This isn't about drafting Cousins as a charity case. Its not about helping him grow up because we think its the right thing to do. Its because he dominated at his position in college and is the best center in the draft. What is it that you don't understand????? I'm tired of debating this issue with you. You've obviously got a closed mind and nothing is going to make you open it to the possilbility that if we pass on Cousins, we may just be passing on a future star. Because he has that kind of Ability. You may not think so, but frankly I don't think you have any idea just how good Cousins was this past season.
Were talking about a 19 year old kid that your willing to comdemm for life because of why? Because he may be the next Artest, or J. Will. or Zack Randolph. You don't know that he will, and I don't know that he will. And thats a fact. So as I've said, I'll leave it up to Petire to decide.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Sorry, but "support system"? That's way too PC for me. It hearkens images of indulgent parents providing support for spoiled children, which further impedes the growth of their spoiled brats.
Now that I've had that little rant, let me give your view the total benefit of the doubt and suspend my disbelief. Could you explain this support system and how exactly it would assist Cousins to grow up and improve his work ethic? Is the support system you are referring to the Kevin Garnett variety in which he reams his green teamates with expletives until they shape up? Maybe even makes them cry? If that's what you mean, then that "support system" might work. But who on the Kings has that kind of stature and doesn't care about being viewed by others as an authoritarian jerk?
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Just read your own stuff:
I had a childhood that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I was basicly thrown away, for lack of a better way of putting it. And had it not been for a couple of people in my life, god knows where I might have ended up. Actually, maybe I should give all the credit to God. So maybe because of my personal background, and being the wise old bastard that I've become, I look on these kids a little bit different than some others do. Because back when I had put myself into a position where everything could have gone south for me. One person stepped in and saw something in me that no one else saw. So I'm not so quick to condemm. That doesn't make me right in my judgement. But I would rather error on the side of believing in someone than condemming someone.
__________________
This has nothing to do with condemnation or not. Nothing. And you wonder what I'm responding to? This is about making a wise business decision, not justice and the American Way. It has nothing to do with helping Cousins out like someone helped you out, or even giving Cousins the benefit of the doubt like someone gave you the benefit of the doubt. And you wonder what I'm responding to?
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Your so blind that your incapable of understanding what I'm saying. So I'm done trying. So on to another subject...
kennadog
Dog On It!
Kingster: You act like making a good business decision and maybe helping someone out are mutually exclusive goals. That just isn't true.
No employer (GM) can know the person they're hiring (picking) in depth. You gather as much information as possible, weigh the positives and negatives and make what you think is the best choice. Especially when you are dealing with a group of potential choices that are untested in the "real" world and so young. (At least the real NBA world.
)
I haven't read anything that tells me that Cousins clearly has hands off markers. Certainly JWill and Artest both had a lot more damaging histories when drafted, so they are not good comparisons to me. There is little point to making mountains out of possible molehill-sized warning signs. Those issues are not necessarily lifetime character flaws writ large.
I just don't see GP missing the mark on character. So giving someone with so much potential a chance, doesn't mean you'll go easy on him. It just means GP thinks the risk is worth the potential reward. I actually do trust GP on that, knowing there's no guarantee.
Sorry, but I'm with Bajaden. Life's too short to write off people who may prove themselves worthy of the chance they're being given, despite their current or past flaws. Its a calculated risk, but the rewards may be even sweeter for the risks.
Besides you might be cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
Personally, I'm still waiting for Hawes to mature. (Get a clue that he actually doesn't know everything there is to know and he can actually be totally wrong sometimes. Still reminds me of a teenager sometimes.)
No employer (GM) can know the person they're hiring (picking) in depth. You gather as much information as possible, weigh the positives and negatives and make what you think is the best choice. Especially when you are dealing with a group of potential choices that are untested in the "real" world and so young. (At least the real NBA world.
)I haven't read anything that tells me that Cousins clearly has hands off markers. Certainly JWill and Artest both had a lot more damaging histories when drafted, so they are not good comparisons to me. There is little point to making mountains out of possible molehill-sized warning signs. Those issues are not necessarily lifetime character flaws writ large.
I just don't see GP missing the mark on character. So giving someone with so much potential a chance, doesn't mean you'll go easy on him. It just means GP thinks the risk is worth the potential reward. I actually do trust GP on that, knowing there's no guarantee.
Sorry, but I'm with Bajaden. Life's too short to write off people who may prove themselves worthy of the chance they're being given, despite their current or past flaws. Its a calculated risk, but the rewards may be even sweeter for the risks.
Besides you might be cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
Personally, I'm still waiting for Hawes to mature. (Get a clue that he actually doesn't know everything there is to know and he can actually be totally wrong sometimes. Still reminds me of a teenager sometimes.
)hammystyle
Starter
No it just hearkens that image for you. This is all common sense. Every team provides every rookie a support system.
Option A: Hand a teenager a guaranteed contract for 25 million dollars and hope he figures things out.
Option B: Help the kid in any way you can to be a better player, teammate and man. In the processs of doing so you maximize your investment.
The support system is just the franchise, the Sacramento Kings. The owners, the front office, the coaches, the teammates, the community. That's why I presented it as a question, "Can we provide him a support system..." The team acknowledges that along with Cousins' talent he provides challenges and risks. They assess whether or not they can overcome the challenges and deal with the risks.
I'm not even sure what your point is in between all the silly rants. I think its either A) That if you have to ask these questions about Cousins than he is not worth it. Or B) You don't have one in between all the silly rants.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
You give absolutely no definition of what support system is other than list a number of nouns (front office, coaches, etc). How about throwing in a few verbs and tell me how these nouns are supposed to make an immature guy mature. At least I provided one concrete example of what makes a young guy shape up - a mature no-nonsense leader yelling at him until he shapes up. Social pressure. Now tell me what you're talking about.
kennadog
Dog On It!
You're right. That's one way and it doesn't work on a lot of people. Me, I prefer a leader who doesn't always have to yell. Who leads by their example, wisdom, maturity and backs up words with actions. Someone who can judge what will work overall for the team, but still allow for individual differences, without favoring anyone.
Its not that hard to instill fear and that will work sometimes. It takes leadership to inspire respect and cooperation.
hammystyle
Starter
Use your imagination. Can you really not think of anything that the front office, coaches and other players can do to help a young guy with issues become a professional?
There's lots of verbs that all those nouns could do to help Demarcus be a successful NBA player. I'm not going to list them all out because that's just time consuming, not that relevant to my point, and will just continue the cycle of you picking a small thing out of a larger point and starting another silly little rant.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
This conversation is getting to be a bit rediculous. Unless we have a bunch of teenagers posting on this forum, the majority of us were 19 once, and were much more immature at that age than at 25, and at 25 less mature than at 30. It's life. You live, you learn. If Cousins had a criminal record, was accused of rape, had DUI's on his record, problems with drugs, poor academic standing, was a bad teammate, showed up late for practice or games, or something along those lines, I could understand the concern. But none of that has happened.
He is accused of having a little bit of a temper on the court. So what? We could use that. Some of the best bigs of all time had tempers on court. They gave that "you don't want to mess with me vibe". The reason I say it's getting blown out of proportion, is that he hit an opposing player once. Anyone who saw that play, also saw that Cousins was the one who was hit by the other player first, and he responded. This isn't a re-occuring theme. His teammates have said other teams would try to pee him off, take him out of the game mentally, goat him into reacting and losing his cool. As the season progressed, he learned how to handle it better, and would just walk away and ignore the guys trying to invoke a reaction. This isn't speculation, this is his teammates who saw it first hand. He matured in that respect as the season went on.
The other knock on him was that he didn't have a good work ethic, and would argue with his coach. If anyone remembers, earlier this year, Wall said Calapari was a tough coach to play for, and he often would ignore him because that was the only way he could play up to his potential. Well, Wall isn't getting hammered for saying that is he. Cousins got in a few verbal exchanges with Calapari during games, when getting pulled out. Would he be the first player who is pissed about getting pulled from a game? Not saying he handled it correctly, but it could also be related to his competitive drive. We don't know. But we do have Wall stepping forward and saying Calapari is a very tough coach to play for. And I have yet to hear anywhere, that Cousins is uncoachable.
Then his work ethic. How many high school seniors naturally have a great work ethic? I didn't. It improved in my 20's. Thats normal. Cousins didn't have a great work ethic as a senior. But all reports suggest he improved in that area as a freshman. I just don't see where all these red flags are coming from.
His teammates say he was a good teammate, somewhat goofy at times. All reports suggest he has matured over the course of the last year, both on the court and off. His work ethic has improved. His on court temperment has improved. He is still only 19. Are some here more concerned with how he comes across in interviews with journalists asking the same stupid questions over and over again? Or would they rather look at what his teammates have said, guys who were in battle with him, and the fact there is evidence suggesting he has made changes and has matured over the last year?
He is accused of having a little bit of a temper on the court. So what? We could use that. Some of the best bigs of all time had tempers on court. They gave that "you don't want to mess with me vibe". The reason I say it's getting blown out of proportion, is that he hit an opposing player once. Anyone who saw that play, also saw that Cousins was the one who was hit by the other player first, and he responded. This isn't a re-occuring theme. His teammates have said other teams would try to pee him off, take him out of the game mentally, goat him into reacting and losing his cool. As the season progressed, he learned how to handle it better, and would just walk away and ignore the guys trying to invoke a reaction. This isn't speculation, this is his teammates who saw it first hand. He matured in that respect as the season went on.
The other knock on him was that he didn't have a good work ethic, and would argue with his coach. If anyone remembers, earlier this year, Wall said Calapari was a tough coach to play for, and he often would ignore him because that was the only way he could play up to his potential. Well, Wall isn't getting hammered for saying that is he. Cousins got in a few verbal exchanges with Calapari during games, when getting pulled out. Would he be the first player who is pissed about getting pulled from a game? Not saying he handled it correctly, but it could also be related to his competitive drive. We don't know. But we do have Wall stepping forward and saying Calapari is a very tough coach to play for. And I have yet to hear anywhere, that Cousins is uncoachable.
Then his work ethic. How many high school seniors naturally have a great work ethic? I didn't. It improved in my 20's. Thats normal. Cousins didn't have a great work ethic as a senior. But all reports suggest he improved in that area as a freshman. I just don't see where all these red flags are coming from.
His teammates say he was a good teammate, somewhat goofy at times. All reports suggest he has matured over the course of the last year, both on the court and off. His work ethic has improved. His on court temperment has improved. He is still only 19. Are some here more concerned with how he comes across in interviews with journalists asking the same stupid questions over and over again? Or would they rather look at what his teammates have said, guys who were in battle with him, and the fact there is evidence suggesting he has made changes and has matured over the last year?
Padrino
All-Star
demarcus cousins is 19 years old. he may be immature, even for his age, or he may just be 19. immaturity can look rather magnified in this overexposed media age that we're in. mentoring would certainly help, and hopefully a patient head coach like paul westphal and tougher assistant coaches like mario elie could bring the right kind of balancing effect to the table should the kings have the opportunity to draft him. more than anything, though, it will take time and personal accountability on the part of cousins, so that's the risk we're talking about. if he has actual temper issues, and if he actually presents a potential locker room problem, will he take the steps to grow up? i don't know, but i also don't know if those problems will ever even present themselves...
demarcus cousins is the best center in the draft, statistically speaking. he's got the potential to be an incredibly productive center, both as a scorer and rebounder. as with most bigs coming out of college, he'll need to put in the work to get better on the defensive side of the ball. he'll also quickly discover what "nba shape" means. but, really, he's just a big guy. his physiology dictates that he'll never be a superior athletic talent, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. there's not a lot of truly BIG centers in the nba anymore. if cousins is there at the fifth pick, you take him, because the chances of him finding success in the nba, in spite of his perceived character flaws, are just as good, if not greater, than any other PF/C with lesser ability that a gm might consider drafting at 5. since there is no other big with clear top-5 potential, you either take cousins at 5 if he's there, or you trade down to avoid the risk...
but the kings could definitely use help at the center position. they didn't luck out in the draft lottery, and luck is a rather large part of building a successful nba team. so is risk (think about the chris webber trade). that said, in my opinion, you've gotta roll the dice on cousins if he's there at 5. if the immaturity slights amount to little more than pre-draft smoke screens, then there's really no reason he couldn't be a top-5 center in the league. but its difficult to gauge the upside of other potential front court lottery picks like greg monroe, ed davis, ekpe udoh, al-farouq aminu, or cole aldrich. picking one of those players might not be a bad idea if cousins is not there, but can anybody say that any of them are a definitive upgrade over jason thompson or spencer hawes? i'd hope that they'll all be smarter offensive players than thompson, better rebounders than hawes, and stronger defensive players than both, but is it enough of an upgrade to help put the kings over the top? probably not. so i say take the risk if it presents itself, because it could potentially be the move that does put the kings over the top someday. a successful pairing of tyreke evans and demarcus cousins could dominate down the road...
demarcus cousins is the best center in the draft, statistically speaking. he's got the potential to be an incredibly productive center, both as a scorer and rebounder. as with most bigs coming out of college, he'll need to put in the work to get better on the defensive side of the ball. he'll also quickly discover what "nba shape" means. but, really, he's just a big guy. his physiology dictates that he'll never be a superior athletic talent, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. there's not a lot of truly BIG centers in the nba anymore. if cousins is there at the fifth pick, you take him, because the chances of him finding success in the nba, in spite of his perceived character flaws, are just as good, if not greater, than any other PF/C with lesser ability that a gm might consider drafting at 5. since there is no other big with clear top-5 potential, you either take cousins at 5 if he's there, or you trade down to avoid the risk...
but the kings could definitely use help at the center position. they didn't luck out in the draft lottery, and luck is a rather large part of building a successful nba team. so is risk (think about the chris webber trade). that said, in my opinion, you've gotta roll the dice on cousins if he's there at 5. if the immaturity slights amount to little more than pre-draft smoke screens, then there's really no reason he couldn't be a top-5 center in the league. but its difficult to gauge the upside of other potential front court lottery picks like greg monroe, ed davis, ekpe udoh, al-farouq aminu, or cole aldrich. picking one of those players might not be a bad idea if cousins is not there, but can anybody say that any of them are a definitive upgrade over jason thompson or spencer hawes? i'd hope that they'll all be smarter offensive players than thompson, better rebounders than hawes, and stronger defensive players than both, but is it enough of an upgrade to help put the kings over the top? probably not. so i say take the risk if it presents itself, because it could potentially be the move that does put the kings over the top someday. a successful pairing of tyreke evans and demarcus cousins could dominate down the road...
Nighthawk1
Starter
Very well said my friend. This sums up what I believe about Cousins'.
Even the great bigs have a court temper, especially when you're getting banged around on purpose. He handled himself pretty well IMO during college. His court temper improved, his work ethic improved, and he played extremely dominate college ball. He will mature past what these "red flags" suggest and if we have the chance to take him and we do, I have a feeling much like Tyreke of last year everyone will be very happy we took that chance on him.
hammystyle
Starter
This is the glass half full view of it I think. You may end up being right, but we can't just dismiss the concerns. For instance in regards to work ethic. If its improved that much how come his body fat % was so high. Let's not condemn him but its a sign that his work ethic still has a way to go. Most people's work ethic gets better with age because they are forced to provide for themselves. That's not the case with a kid with a guaranteed 25M contract. So its a worry.
How much has he really matured? At the combine he was asked about the perceptions about him. He blew them off as a creation of the media, accepted zero responsibility, and did it in a really condescending childish way. A mature approach would have been something like, "You know, I think that has been overblown a bit. I know I'm not perfect and I'll do all I can to prove people wrong who believe that." Just something where even if you don't agree with the criticism you own your ability to disprove it.
Sparky6string
Bench
rainmaker delete that before Minnesota sees it
The same reason that most of the guys coming into the draft aren't where they physically need to be. College players are constantly on the move between classes, homework, practice, and games. The NCAA has rules to limit the amount of time coaches and their staff have to spend with players, so with the younger guys they spend more time developing skills and learning the scheme rather than worrying about getting them ripped. Not unlike a good portion of our society, many young players eat too much crappy fast food or just the wrong foods in general. Many players just don't have a very good understanding of nutrition coming out of tough backgrounds where they ate whatever was cheap growing up. There are some guys that do in fact come into the draft looking pretty sculpted, and it isn't coincidence that they are more often the guys that have been in college longer. They generally have already learned the coach's scheme and have a lot more time to work with trainers on their body. They just in general have a better idea of how to take care of their body. One of the exceptions to that is a guy like our very own Tyreke Evans. Thanks to his older brothers, he had been working with a personal trainer all through high school and into college and came into the draft quite developed. Not many guys get that sort of advantage though.
Is Cousins body fat % a concern? I would say it is something that should be factored in as something he needs to work on as a pro, but I don't necessarily see it as an indictment of his work ethic. I would be more concerned if he were a little older or had been in college longer and still hadn't shown any development in his body. I think it was a mistake for he or his agent to not get him into a draft-prep camp like a lot of guys do. That is something Kevin Love did coming out of college when people were talking about him carrying too much fat and wearing down late in games, and it ended up helping him. It would have helped Cousins minimize that concern a bit, but I still don't think it will be a huge issue for his draft stock.
You could say that about pretty much any high pick in any sport. Teams do their best to do their due diligence and still end up making mistakes. It is an inherent risk.
Cousins doesn't seem like the most well-spoken kid, and by all reports is more a shy guy that doesn't like being in front of the media. You add to that a dash of immaturity and the fact that at this point he probably feels like the media is the enemy, and you end up with extremely awkward interviews. Let me be clear that I am not saying I like the way he handled that interview session, because I don't. I am just saying that if you dig into things a little deeper and understand more about him and where he is coming from, it is more understandable.
All it confirmed is something we already knew, which is that he still has a ways to go in terms of maturity. No one can say they know how that will play out because every person matures a different amount at a different rate with circumstance and situation playing a huge role. A lot of young players have had their dedication and maturity questioned at times, including his teammate John Wall before he turned things around over the course of a year-and-a-half. What I do know is that whatever maturity issues he is dealing with, it hasn't stopped him to this point. He has dominated every level of competition he has been at so far, and in the end that always has to come first when your evaluating players coming into the draft. He went through a year of college without any major incidents anyone can point to. No one is perfect and he has his knocks, but I just don't think anything I have seen or heard about Cousins makes him any more or less likely to be a bust in the NBA than many other guys that have come before him.
Last edited:
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I agree with your notions about leadership. There are different types. But does leadership by example influence somebody like Cousins? If this leader doesn't say a word to this young man and "leads by example", will that do it? Greene was immature when we drafted him. Didn't have anger issues. A trip to the D-League, several talks with the coach, a lot of DNPs, seems to have turned it around for him. At least on the surface, it doesn't seem like the vets had an influence. Remember the Bobby Jackson incident? Jackson was a fine ballplayer, an incredible competitor, a no-nonsense kind of guy. But Greene didn't exactly give him due respect (until later after the blowback). It seems like the deleterious consequences from his behavior had a greater impact on Greene than any player's example. Anyway, I'm rambling, because it's not a question that can be easily answered, as each player is different. But at the end of the day, my belief is that people usually don't change their bad habits unless they experience some very painful consequences from those bad habits. I doubt that Cousins is different. Unfortunately, if you get Cousins, you probably have to live with those deleterious consequences.
Good analysis of what's up here with Cousins. I feel a little better about picking him because of your thoughts here. We aren't going to pick him unless he passes the Petrie test and that's good enough for me. As a Kings fan, I don't look forward to watching and worrying about guy a growing up so he can help the Kings be successful. I ain't fun for me or for that matter anyone in the organization. So I won't pick him but will go along with Petrie's good judgement.
