Iced Espresso
Starter
I'm more disappointed with what we've surrounded Cuz with in the past. We've had some rather embarrassing rosters. Jury is still out for this season.
Will Cousins ever figure it out?... [EDIT] I think we're seeing it!
- Thread starter Merdiesel
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NewArena
All-Star
well, no reason for me to read anything beyond this post. I agree, and that about covers it to be honest
I'm not saying we trade Cousins, but if he never "figures" it out, it doesn't mean we immediately drop and lose him from our roster. We will get players or assets in return.
Cuz is a top 10 talent, but he's not even a top 100 player in terms of leadership. He hasn't stepped it up this season, and it's been disappointing to say the least. I really hope he starts showing more of a leadership role alongside Rondo. This is what the team desperately needs.
What we saw vs. the Celtics was not a leader in Demarcus. That's so damn disappointing after all this discussion here about how he's changed since the team meeting. Still patiently waiting for that Cuz to arrive.
Even with that being said, Cuz is far from being the only problem in this team and it's not all his fault. His teammates need to step up....Marco has been garbage on both ends and it's almost like he gets an excuse. Collison and Rondo have been terrible on defense, but no one points out their deficiencies.
I really hate to see Cuz, Gay, and McLemore scapegoats for this team playing poor out there.
SLAB
Hall of Famer
For the two minutes I had my radio on 1140 a few days ago Grant was railing on DMC, and said there has been one constant in the last 6 years of suck. He then said something along the lines of you can't have a losing team go into a brand new building and implied it's the constant that needs to be removed.
All I know is that if the great almighty, all-knowing Grant Napier implies DMC must go, it must be true.
& No, I don't actually agree. AT ALL. I turned the radio off when he suggested DMC was the issue. It sounded like he was activly trying to rally the fanbase against DMC and Ive wanted to share this since I heard it. I despise Grant.
All I know is that if the great almighty, all-knowing Grant Napier implies DMC must go, it must be true.
& No, I don't actually agree. AT ALL. I turned the radio off when he suggested DMC was the issue. It sounded like he was activly trying to rally the fanbase against DMC and Ive wanted to share this since I heard it. I despise Grant.
It wouldn't have been the first time. And what truly galls me is he'll do the broadcast and speak out of the other side of his mouth the entire time, like we don't know he's the same person.
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
it was the roster before. now its the coach.
Logically speaking, is he incorrect though? There have been two constants: Cousins, and the Kings' inability to build a winning team around Cousins. If we want to win, one of those has to go, and you should arguably go with the option that is easier to achieve (whichever you think it is). I will also say that I still don't believe Cousins can be the leader on a winning team, he's just not reliable enough to carry you through Tough times. Time will tell, and winning will solve everything
Showtime
Starter
This team has the talent to have a better record, even with DMC injured for a few games. They just look awful.
The thing that concerns me about this "DMC is untradable" approach is that players like Shaq, KG, Chris Paul, etc were dealt when the circumstances merited a change. We've had him 6 years, and this team has had multiple owners and coaches, and this organization just was unable to build any kind of consistency and stability, and it appears that trend will continue because Karl doesn't seem to be in the long term plans.
The ultimate goal is to build a team that is competitive. That's it: win. We have watched year after year this team fail to do that with DMC. He may not want to stick around after his contract is up, so why not look to help the team win by evaluating their options?
Refresh my memory: how many of those teams got better after the trade?
K
KingMilz
Guest
How many of those teams never won 30 games with those guys there when those guys were healthy? Those guys in there prime bring it ever night its unfair to them to compare those guys to çousins they are on a completly different level.
Sac.1989
Starter
Wouldn't it not make sense to fix those issues stemming from mange bevy as opposed to trade your competitive advantage and ticket back to prominence.
The issue is not nor has it ever been boogie. We are a train wreck of a franchise who can't run a sustainable business. It's not difficult to see that
lawlman91
Starter
Theory: DMC has a personality where he has to "depend" on someone. Last year, DMC depended on Malone, and that's not there anymore. Surely, he doesn't have the same relationship with Karl. Sure, winning solves all, but chemistry sure helps with winning. Our vets need to step up and be those guys that ground and support our stars.
Showtime
Starter
That's my point entirely. There were SUPERIOR players that were traded, so the idea that DMC cannot be moved to help a team is false, if circumstances merit it.
As the previous poster said, how many of them were never successful to begin with? My point is we aren't going from a playoff team that cannot get over the hump (see: Webber, Peja, etc) and see the need to rebuild, we are talking about a perennial lottery team that cannot even sniff .500 basketball, and somehow that means we cannot move our best player in order to facilitate rebuilding. My question to people who think DMC is too good to be moved is this: at what point in his career does that premise fail? When he's on the decline after a decade in the Association? If the franchise has proven to be INCAPABLE of even reaching .500 with the BEST CENTER IN THE LEAGUE since Shaq, then what on earth keeps hope alive? I just don't get it.
Showtime
Starter
So why continue the status quo just because he's good? Why not blow up the team and rebuild with a long-term coach and front office? Also, I disagree that Boogie poses no negative to this team. He sinks morale with his temper, and can sink a game by his demeanor. Losing gets to him, and while other volatile players have existed and succeeded in this league, they've been able to do so in spite of their attitudes. DMC has yet to prove that, since he can hurt his team as much as he can help it, and we all know the stats on how much he helps this team.
The end result is a top 10 player in this game is helping his team win 28 games a years. When is that no longer tolerable as a franchise strategy? One, two, six years from now?
Except that this whole argument is based on a premise which assumes facts not entered into evidence: namely, that we can't get worse.
gunks
Hall of Famer
While I agree that Cuz has major issues as far as attitude goes, I think that blaming this franchise's floundering fortunes on him is a stretch.
In our 6 years of losing with Cuz as centerpiece, we've had terrible owners in the Maloofs, terrible rosters built around him, too many awful coaches to list, a brand new terrible owner in Vivek (idiotic meddling is just as bad as being cheap in my book - but at least he isn't threatening to move the team yet!), awful drafting of young talent, a decent coach with an awful roster (who was able to reach Cuz and turn him into an early season MVP candidate - then was promptly fired), a terrible weasel GM.....
.... Now we have a good GM who got us a decent roster, but we have another awful coach in washed up Karl and who knows what "The Irritant" is doing behind the scenes.
I know Cousins detractors say they're tired of the excuses, but **** guys, the excuses are valid. This franchise has been a joke since he got here.
If we trade Cousins, we're still stuck with a bad coach and a mischievous little gremlin owner. And whatever we get for Cuz isn't going to measure up talent-wise.
If there's rumblings that he's going to bail at the end of the contract, that's one thing... But we still have a few years. I don't know about y'all, but personally I'm interested in seeing what he can do with a good roster AND a good coach...
.... too bad that seems like too much to ask.
In our 6 years of losing with Cuz as centerpiece, we've had terrible owners in the Maloofs, terrible rosters built around him, too many awful coaches to list, a brand new terrible owner in Vivek (idiotic meddling is just as bad as being cheap in my book - but at least he isn't threatening to move the team yet!), awful drafting of young talent, a decent coach with an awful roster (who was able to reach Cuz and turn him into an early season MVP candidate - then was promptly fired), a terrible weasel GM.....
.... Now we have a good GM who got us a decent roster, but we have another awful coach in washed up Karl and who knows what "The Irritant" is doing behind the scenes.
I know Cousins detractors say they're tired of the excuses, but **** guys, the excuses are valid. This franchise has been a joke since he got here.
If we trade Cousins, we're still stuck with a bad coach and a mischievous little gremlin owner. And whatever we get for Cuz isn't going to measure up talent-wise.
If there's rumblings that he's going to bail at the end of the contract, that's one thing... But we still have a few years. I don't know about y'all, but personally I'm interested in seeing what he can do with a good roster AND a good coach...
.... too bad that seems like too much to ask.
Showtime
Starter
That isn't it, it is that we are incapable of getting where we want to go. You mentioned winning, and probably the best example of this to compare to DMC is Kevin Love. The guy was a beast putting up crazy stats for six seasons with a team that never got to .500. He was dealt, and the team moved on with some good pieces and draft picks, and are currently 8-10 with a decent chance at a playoff push for the 8th spot. Does it mean Kevin Love didn't help his team win? NO. It was just that they had spent enough time to where they knew what kind of player he was, and what kind of franchise it was, and knew they were never going to go where they wanted to go together, so they cut their losses and moved him while he was valuable for returns. They knew they could build a future by moving him, so they did, and they are on their way back up and might even make the playoffs this season, something Love never was able to do with them.
DMC will never reach the playoffs in Sacramento. I'm not saying this because I'm negative, I'm saying this because I'm a realist. We put a HOF "players' coach" in, we put a veteran All-Star NBA champion at point, we put another productive vet in Gay beside him, and added several good role players and this team just isn't functioning up to its potential. So I ask again: at what point is it acceptable to cut losses and move DMC? I'm still waiting to hear that answered. If not now, then when?
Showtime
Starter
I don't think the point is: "Boogie is the problem, we need to move him", I think the issue is: "We've seen enough, and need to completely rebuild and moving DMC now gives us max returns to facilitate the rebuild because it just isn't working."
Sac.1989
Starter
Because we don't have to. He's shown no indication of wanting to move on and we haven't done a good job at all of putting him in a winning situation in his years here. We have a solid squad for the first time in years and we are talking about trading our franchise star when we all agree we aren't even playing in a efficient way?
It's an option when he's disgruntled and wants out, shouldn't be long at this pace. Pun intended. And just to be clear when that happens it is soley because we have let him down as a franchise and nothing less.
Like anyone can have faith that we can build long term with a solid coach and front office, that's laughable. Demarcus is all we have but the end is near. This season could be over by Christmas, 2 more seasons on contract, it all could be coming to an end soon and what a travesty that is. Only in kings land hey. But hey we'll have a new arena soon, Shame the product on the floor won't have much to show for the bright lights.
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ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
There's been solid "vets" around to help team character. Guys like Reggie Evans and Caron Butler. It hasn't made a noticeable difference, where we need to see it most. The root of the issue is a deep root
As a matter of fact, I never mentioned winning at all. I just said that there's no particularly rational basis for believing that just because we haven't been any good with Cousins that we wouldn't get immediately and possibly irreparably worse without him.
And Minnesota got two number one overall picks for Kevin Love. The only team in a position to offer us a sweetheart deal like that is Philadelphia, and they're too busy Trusting the Process™. The only thing worse than getting worse that us getting worse after trading Cousins would be watching him win a championship somewhere else, while we hope that the trade pays off for us, 8-10 years down the line.
Showtime
Starter
Um, re-read that sentence. He's been extremely volatile and frustrated when losing. His attitude sucks when he's losing, and it impacts everybody when he's like that. So...when the team loses...he's not going to be happy. Everything has indicated he wants to win, so if the Kings prove they cannot build a team that wins, WHY WOULD HE WANT TO STAY? Everything that actually happens in reality says that DMC will not wait forever to win in Sacramento.
That's the point: we have the most talent we've had in years, a HOF coach who barely misses the postseason and STILL CANNOT WIN GAMES. That's the entire point. At what point do we rebuild? Please answer this: How many more seasons of sub-30 win teams do you personally feel we should endure before rebuilding?
It takes two to tango, and he bares some responsibility in his inability to stay composed and been tinder in the flames of Sacramento's dumpster fire of a franchise these past few seasons. Is he to blame entirely for the instability? No, of course not. But we aren't talking about Alex Smith here. DMC has had plenty of his own issues he's dealt with during his time here.
gunks
Hall of Famer
Well, I suppose our opinions differ on whether or not we've "seen enough".
I get your angle though. It's one way to go about fixing this team.
If we're a contender in 3 seasons, I don't care if Cuz is on the team or not. That being said, I still believe that our best bet to becoming a contender in 3 seasons, is to keep Cuz on this team.
But who knows, some godfather offer could always come along.. I'd hope Vlade would accept nothing less.
Showtime
Starter
It all comes down to how many more lottery years are we willing to accept in the hopes that one day, the team will put it all together around DMC? For me, I think I've seen enough of Vivek to know that it probably won't ever happen.
Iced Espresso
Starter
Just looking over some history with Mitch Richmond.
91 29-53
92 25-57
93 28-44
94 39-43
95 39-43
96 34-48
97 27-55
One playoff run in 7 years, traded at the age of 32.
Funny I don't recall anyone wanting to trade him to rebuild, or complaining that he never got us 40 wins or anything like that.
But having a 25 year old guy around and people are so quick to throw in the towel.
91 29-53
92 25-57
93 28-44
94 39-43
95 39-43
96 34-48
97 27-55
One playoff run in 7 years, traded at the age of 32.
Funny I don't recall anyone wanting to trade him to rebuild, or complaining that he never got us 40 wins or anything like that.
But having a 25 year old guy around and people are so quick to throw in the towel.
And that's because DMC has a crapty attitude. Mitch was a stand up guy and class act in every sense of the word
