Who will be the leader on this team?

[Capt. Factorial]

kevin martin isnt tough. at all. he's definately not verbal, he's obviously not a teacher, what is he going to teach??????????????(unless you're learning to shoot freethrows. he's not even 90% by the way).

To be fair, since 1951, in both the ABA and NBA, there have been a total of 96 players who have hit 90% FTs on the year. That's 96 players in 57 years, or less than two per year on average. (And Ray Allen, for instance, having done it 6 times, counts as 6 of those 96). There are only 13 active players that have ever done it even once. Kevin shot .869 last year, which was 12th in the league. Not only that, but he got to the line a lot. Of the 11 players with a better percentage, none shot more FTs than Kevin (578) and 8 of the 11 didn't even shoot 300.

He's a very good free throw shooter.

 

[Kingster]

Well that part is true -- Kevin rarely squares his man up and takes him off the dribble. He gets to the line by, well a) flopping, and b) flopping; and c) by catching the ball on the move, or shading off a screen, or anything else that let's him get a free step where he can use his speed to keep the angle (wherein the flopping often starts). You never see him for instance square a guy up one on one and just beat him off the dribble -- his handle remains his notable weakpoint. What he does is compensate for it by knowing how to get an advantage even without a killer crossover.

The fact that he can get to the basket off of anybody in the league without a crossover is incredibly impressive. What allows him "to get an advantage even without a killer crossover" is incredible quickness and speed. If he gets a crossover, they'll need an ambulance nearby for all the ankles he will be breaking. The flopping thing is overstated. He beats his man without a crossover, the defender can't keep up, the defender hits him (because the defender has no balance because he is backpeddaling as fast as possible at this point) and then Kevin with his balance will often make the shot. At this point, Kevin is both a very simple player and a very effective one. If he adds complexity to his offense, such as a crossover, then he can enter into superstar territory. I say, if, because there's no way to know whether that's going to happen or not.

 

[VF21]

this is why the best player on the team should be the leader

1. he sets the tone on offense and defense. he demands that this is the way the team has to play in order to win.
2. he is an inspiration to his teammates. he may dive for loose balls, take a tech every now&then for his team.
3. he's verbal
4. he's TOUGH
5. he's composed
6. he's a teacher

now, vlade had some of these qualities. i would say webber had more. vlade wasnt tough, he was a flopper. he had skill, but not enough. he was composed at times and he was a great teacher. webber was tough, he was a teacher and he helped give the image that there ARE great passing big men. he was also extremely skilled and verbal. therefore i would give webber the leadership over vlade any day. now, kevin martin isnt tough. at all. he's definately not verbal, he's obviously not a teacher, what is he going to teach??????????????(unless you're learning to shoot freethrows. he's not even 90% by the way). he's not skilled enough, but he is composed. so i right now i can see 1 of the 6 main components. tisk tisk.

questions anyone???

Yes, I have a question. Do you realize how silly you sound?

You can continue to expose your ignorance but it won't hide the truth. Kevin Martin has improved every single year. He has met and exceeded almost everyone's expectations. He's worked hard and he's shown himself to be dedicated and sincere. He didn't step up sooner because he wanted to earn the right...and not have people making comments like "Who does he think he is? He hasn't been here long enough..."

What you can and cannot see about Kevin Martin would fill a very large book. Not that anyone would read it...

 

[EricDraven]

The leader should and needs to be Artest. I just dont know if he even cares enough anymore. For that matter he may not even be around come the start of the season.

 

[tyrant]

The leader should and needs to be Artest. I just dont know if he even cares enough anymore. For that matter he may not even be around come the start of the season.

exactly

 

[VF21]

The leader should and needs to be Artest. I just dont know if he even cares enough anymore. For that matter he may not even be around come the start of the season.

I don't know if you've read the rest of this thread but I think most around here have given up on Artest. He's had ample opportunity to be the leader and failed. He is NOT the kind of player you want your team to follow. He's unpredictable, he's way too volatile and he doesn't understand the concept of team.

The leader of the Kings actually needs to be anyone BUT Ron Artest, IMHO.

 

[EricDraven]

I don't know if you've read the rest of this thread but I think most around here have given up on Artest. He's had ample opportunity to be the leader and failed. He is NOT the kind of player you want your team to follow. He's unpredictable, he's way too volatile and he doesn't understand the concept of team.

The leader of the Kings actually needs to be anyone BUT Ron Artest, IMHO.

Oh I agree with you . Thats why I said it should and needs to be. To bad things dont go the way they should. He could have been a great contributor to this team. We knew it was a chance when we took him though. To bad, just get rid of him. I think we can get an above average player for Artest. Assuming someone wants him. I have heard talks of teams being interested. So who knows. I have percieved Martin as a quiet, keep to himself type guy, I live in New York and dont get to see many of the games anymore because they arent being played on national television that much. So I could be wrong about Martin maybe he can step up and take the challenge.

 

[BMiller52]

um NO, kg and pierce were the 2 best players on that team. technically you had 2 leaders. now it was pauls team because he been there for 30 years.

next, billups was the leader of the pistons. he still is. thats why he was finals MVP. big ben was just a great defensive player

next, are you freakin kiddin me? dwayne wade carried that team on his back AND HE'S THE MAN thats still wearing the heat uni. not shaq. how dare you say d-wade wasnt the leader of that team. you're dismissed

lol Whatever. Free agents like Posey who was S&Ted to them, Mourning, etc. came there because SHAQ was there. Not because DWade was there. He attracted good role players to that team because they wanted to play WITH HIM. Shaq was the LEADER, Wade was the NUMBER ONE OPTION, there's a difference.

And if you honestly think Chauncey was the emotional leader for that team, the guy who set the tone, you don't know ANYTHING about the Pistons. Chauncey's always been a nice guy and a good defender, but it was Ben who gave them toughness and defense, the guy who had that tough attitude, the guy who never quit, he was the LEADER. Chauncey's the clutch player. I followed the Pistons for a while and I know this about them. Ben was the tone setter. YOU'RE dismissed.

 

[tyrant]

lol Whatever. Free agents like Posey who was S&Ted to them, Mourning, etc. came there because SHAQ was there. Not because DWade was there. He attracted good role players to that team because they wanted to play WITH HIM. Shaq was the LEADER, Wade was the NUMBER ONE OPTION, there's a difference.

And if you honestly think Chauncey was the emotional leader for that team, the guy who set the tone, you don't know ANYTHING about the Pistons. Chauncey's always been a nice guy and a good defender, but it was Ben who gave them toughness and defense, the guy who had that tough attitude, the guy who never quit, he was the LEADER. Chauncey's the clutch player. I followed the Pistons for a while and I know this about them. Ben was the tone setter. YOU'RE dismissed.

hahahahahaa. that was pretty funny.

but you cant flip it on me.

 

[FakeInjury]

The leader should and needs to be Artest.

I wish, too bad he doesn't want anything to do with this notion of personal acheivment and responsibility. Garnett had very little to work with(Peirce and Denzel's son from he got game). Rondo was a ? and Tony Allen was too. I feel that the kings have more talent to work with than the C's had at the time of the KG trade. Its too bad Artest doesn't want to be a part of something bigger than himself. I know the maloofs aren't smart, but i hear they put themselves around extremely intelligent people. If artest showed loyalty to his team, those people who the maloofs listen to might start wispering "max". But ron apparently would rather win a championship elsewhere...when his greatest chance of winning one is in Sacramento. artest should be the leader, because he is one. But not for this team, not today.

 

[EricDraven]

I wish, too bad he doesn't want anything to do with this notion of personal acheivment and responsibility. Garnett had very little to work with(Peirce and Denzel's son from he got game). Rondo was a ? and Tony Allen was too. I feel that the kings have more talent to work with than the C's had at the time of the KG trade. Its too bad Artest doesn't want to be a part of something bigger than himself. I know the maloofs aren't smart, but i hear they put themselves around extremely intelligent people. If artest showed loyalty to his team, those people who the maloofs listen to might start wispering "max". But ron apparently would rather win a championship elsewhere...when his greatest chance of winning one is in Sacramento. artest should be the leader, because he is one. But not for this team, not today.

Thats basically what I was saying . I agree with what has been said. Everyone has given up on Artest, but it would have been nice if he got his head out of his *** and played to his ability and used his passion to lead the team. I think we may need to look to Martin or maybe Beno.

 

[1kingzfan]

The fact that he can get to the basket off of anybody in the league without a crossover is incredibly impressive. What allows him "to get an advantage even without a killer crossover" is incredible quickness and speed. If he gets a crossover, they'll need an ambulance nearby for all the ankles he will be breaking. The flopping thing is overstated. He beats his man without a crossover, the defender can't keep up, the defender hits him (because the defender has no balance because he is backpeddaling as fast as possible at this point) and then Kevin with his balance will often make the shot. At this point, Kevin is both a very simple player and a very effective one. If he adds complexity to his offense, such as a crossover, then he can enter into superstar territory. I say, if, because there's no way to know whether that's going to happen or not.

Very well stated and dead on.

Kevin is a very effective scorer already, even though many here have a problem that they cannot slap their own pre-determined star-player blueprint on him and get it to match exactly. Forget the blueprints, since they are meaningless. There is more than one way to run and win a horserace, and Kevin is doing it his own way.

To say that he gets to the line by "flopping and flopping and using screens" is a combo of hyperbole and not being observant. Kevin gets knocked by opposing players all the time from the side as he blows by them and they try to do something about it. Kevin gets to the line so much because he is one of the quickest players in the NBA, not because he is one of the biggest floppers. And to boot, while he is being jarred sideways, he is always still looking to get the off-balance shot off and is probably as good as anyone in the league now in maintaining focus after being crashed into and get a decent shot on goal. Very valuable skill in his toolkit.

In addition, for a player to consistently take his man off the dribble, he has to consistently be in some measure of isolation which Kevin rarely was last season. If he is constantly getting the ball on a clogged side of the floor with other Kings and opposing players mucking up the space, the screen is the only thing that will work. But go back and look at the videotape of when Kevin did indeed get into true iso, and you will see that the majority of times he blew past his man.

The thing to really watch for this upcoming season is yet another incremental improvement in his game. That may include some of those "blueprint" features you folks are dreaming of and may not, but all that we should be looking for is another step up by Kevin. I agree that Kevin needs to improve parts of his game to grab the next rung on the ladder...nothing wrong with that, is there? Is there any other player in the NBA that should not be working on some weaker aspect of his game in the off-season to be more effective?

 

[Elektrik]

I think that the leaders of the team will be beno and garcia

I agree, however if we have to depend on those two as our leaders, then what does that say about the overall quality of our team? sigh....

 

[BMiller52]

hahahahahaa. that was pretty funny.

but you cant flip it on me.

Yea I can bro

 

[Elektrik]

I wish, too bad he doesn't want anything to do with this notion of personal acheivment and responsibility. Garnett had very little to work with(Peirce and Denzel's son from he got game). Rondo was a ? and Tony Allen was too. I feel that the kings have more talent to work with than the C's had at the time of the KG trade. Its too bad Artest doesn't want to be a part of something bigger than himself. I know the maloofs aren't smart, but i hear they put themselves around extremely intelligent people. If artest showed loyalty to his team, those people who the maloofs listen to might start wispering "max". But ron apparently would rather win a championship elsewhere...when his greatest chance of winning one is in Sacramento. artest should be the leader, because he is one. But not for this team, not today.

You mean Ray Allen?

The Maloofs are a lot of things, but not smart isn't one of them

No one is ever going to whisper "max" for Bill Artest whether its on the Kings or any other team.

I sincerely doubt that the Kings window for a championship coincides with Bill Artests remaining quality years as a basketball player.

Bill Artest leader? I can think of other names that could be described him such as a cancer or a malcontent but leader just doesnt seem to fit?

 

[Telemachus]

in the nba you want your leader to be your franchise player. there is a game. its called follow the leader. not follow the washed up 37 year old. and not follow the guy that can twirl a towel with the best of them. its follow the leader. i wish people would quit saying that being a leader has nothing to do with your skills or how great you are. a true leader is a person who by force of example, talents, or qualities plays a directing role. i want to follow the guy thats gona lead me into a winning season. if martin cant do that im sure he'll be traded. who are you gona turn to then?

It is obviously the ideal situation to have a Franchise player who also steps up as the leader of the team. Unfortuneately, franchise players are very rare and not all of them are leaders.

A very teams out there are lucky enough to have there best player also be the leader of the team. San Antonio has Duncan, New Orleans has Chris Paul, Cleveland has Lebron, and LA has Kobe (even if it took him a while to be a leader).

But what about the other top teams this past season?
Boston's franchise player was Garnett, but Pierce was the leader of that team.
Billups has been the leader in Detroit for several seasons, but hasn't been their best player and is definately NOT a franchise player.
In Orlando, there is no doubt that Dwight Howard is the franchise player. He has yet to become the leader IMO. Hedo filled that role this past season.
Phoenix holds Amare Stoudemire has their franchise player, but nobody doubts that Nash is the leader of that team.
You can also make the argument that while Nowitzki has been the best player in Dallas for years that the loss of Nash as their leader has lead to their drop from the top.

 

[tyrant]

Yes, I have a question. Do you realize how silly you sound?

You can continue to expose your ignorance but it won't hide the truth. Kevin Martin has improved every single year. He has met and exceeded almost everyone's expectations. He's worked hard and he's shown himself to be dedicated and sincere. He didn't step up sooner because he wanted to earn the right...and not have people making comments like "Who does he think he is? He hasn't been here long enough..."

What you can and cannot see about Kevin Martin would fill a very large book. Not that anyone would read it...

you mean he met YOUR expectations. he didnt meet mine or many others. of course martin wasnt going to step in here and say "hey look its my show now". bibby was our mr. clutch and ron was an all-star/dpoy. they have CREDENTIALS already. martin has to earn his. he has improved his scoring average and besides that little shot over duncan he's done nothing. nothing. nothing again. we will see what he develops into this season.

 

[tyrant]

It is obviously the ideal situation to have a Franchise player who also steps up as the leader of the team. Unfortuneately, franchise players are very rare and not all of them are leaders.

A very teams out there are lucky enough to have there best player also be the leader of the team. San Antonio has Duncan, New Orleans has Chris Paul, Cleveland has Lebron, and LA has Kobe (even if it took him a while to be a leader).

But what about the other top teams this past season?
Boston's franchise player was Garnett, but Pierce was the leader of that team.
Billups has been the leader in Detroit for several seasons, but hasn't been their best player and is definately NOT a franchise player.
In Orlando, there is no doubt that Dwight Howard is the franchise player. He has yet to become the leader IMO. Hedo filled that role this past season.
Phoenix holds Amare Stoudemire has their franchise player, but nobody
doubts that Nash is the leader of that team.
You can also make the argument that while Nowitzki has been the best player in Dallas for years that the loss of Nash as their leader has lead to their drop from the top.

try to look at it this way. tmac. you would say he's a very verbal guy right? and he's always talking about my team this my team that. he took on the leadership role in orlando and he took on the leadership role in houston. and both teams failed to get out of the 1st round. mcgrady has nasty skills, but he doesnt have as much fire to his game like wade lebron or kobe. and because he is the leader of the rockets they will never get out of the 1st round until he can get that killer instinct. they will only go as far as tmac can carry them. because HE is the best player on that team. one of my points was that in order to be a leader you have to show people how to get it done and set the example. you cant follow someone that doesnt have credentials and cant lead you to where you wana be

 

[Spike]

you cant follow someone that doesnt have credentials and cant lead you to where you wana be

It's like deja vu all over again...

 

[Spike]

and because he is the leader of the rockets they will never get out of the 1st round until he can get that killer instinct. they will only go as far as tmac can carry them.

The instinct is there. I'm sure Yao's injury has something do to with things. The playoffs are a different creature than the regular season, and not having your big guy certainly hurts. A healthy Yao makes a different series, and that cannot be disputed.

"McGrady finished 13-for-26 and tried to carry the Rockets, but few of his teammates climbed aboard. McGrady pushed the Rockets through the end of the second quarter, going on a 9-0 run and scoring 13 straight for Houston while cutting a 17-point lead to 58-54 at halftime."

Sounds like someone who has the desire, and ability, to carry his team. Luck has not gone his way.

 

[tyrant]

The instinct is there. I'm sure Yao's injury has something do to with things. The playoffs are a different creature than the regular season, and not having your big guy certainly hurts. A healthy Yao makes a different series, and that cannot be disputed.

"McGrady finished 13-for-26 and tried to carry the Rockets, but few of his teammates climbed aboard. McGrady pushed the Rockets through the end of the second quarter, going on a 9-0 run and scoring 13 straight for Houston while cutting a 17-point lead to 58-54 at halftime."

Sounds like someone who has the desire, and ability, to carry his team. Luck has not gone his way.

they lost to the jazz when yao was healthy. didnt they?

 

[Spike]

Read again:

The instinct is there. I'm sure Yao's injury has something do to with things. The playoffs are a different creature than the regular season, and not having your big guy certainly hurts. A healthy Yao makes a different series, and that cannot be disputed.

"McGrady finished 13-for-26 and tried to carry the Rockets, but few of his teammates climbed aboard. McGrady pushed the Rockets through the end of the second quarter, going on a 9-0 run and scoring 13 straight for Houston while cutting a 17-point lead to 58-54 at halftime."

Sounds like someone who has the desire, and ability, to carry his team. Luck has not gone his way.

 

[tyrant]

Read again:

yes i read that. what im saying is that houston lost to utah the year before last. when yao was there and healthy. right or wrong?

 

[Spike]

yes i read that. what im saying is that houston lost to utah the year before last. when yao was there and healthy. right or wrong?

Sure, I'll play, just once more though, then I'm off to work. I encourage you to come back to the topic at hand, though.

The Rockets, sure in 2006-2007, lost to Utah. The Rockets were without Bonzi Wells during that time as well. McGrady had an excellent series that year. Let's get back to the topic at hand.

 

[Kingster]

Very well stated and dead on.

Kevin is a very effective scorer already, even though many here have a problem that they cannot slap their own pre-determined star-player blueprint on him and get it to match exactly. Forget the blueprints, since they are meaningless. There is more than one way to run and win a horserace, and Kevin is doing it his own way.

To say that he gets to the line by "flopping and flopping and using screens" is a combo of hyperbole and not being observant. Kevin gets knocked by opposing players all the time from the side as he blows by them and they try to do something about it. Kevin gets to the line so much because he is one of the quickest players in the NBA, not because he is one of the biggest floppers. And to boot, while he is being jarred sideways, he is always still looking to get the off-balance shot off and is probably as good as anyone in the league now in maintaining focus after being crashed into and get a decent shot on goal. Very valuable skill in his toolkit.

In addition, for a player to consistently take his man off the dribble, he has to consistently be in some measure of isolation which Kevin rarely was last season. If he is constantly getting the ball on a clogged side of the floor with other Kings and opposing players mucking up the space, the screen is the only thing that will work. But go back and look at the videotape of when Kevin did indeed get into true iso, and you will see that the majority of times he blew past his man.

The thing to really watch for this upcoming season is yet another incremental improvement in his game. That may include some of those "blueprint" features you folks are dreaming of and may not, but all that we should be looking for is another step up by Kevin. I agree that Kevin needs to improve parts of his game to grab the next rung on the ladder...nothing wrong with that, is there? Is there any other player in the NBA that should not be working on some weaker aspect of his game in the off-season to be more effective?

Great minds think alike. It's interesting to me how many people on this board don't really see Martin. They want to fit him desperately into some pidgeon hole rather than just see what he does on the floor. It seems they can only see Martin by comparing him to someone else, yet invariably the comparison fails.

 

[tyrant]

i see martin for who he is. earlier i wasnt trying to compare him to kobe. well not purposely anyway, but in order to determine how good kevin can be you have to put him up against the measuring stick.

 

[Kingzrool]

I'd like to put in an official request that someone take the first two letters off of tyrant's username.

 

[BMiller52]

I'd like to put in an official request that someone take the first two letters off of tyrant's username.

ROFLMAO. Good idea.

 

[gunks]

I'd like to put in an official request that someone take the first two letters off of tyrant's username.

Haha...Thats a good one, I'm surprised you're the first to suggest this!



Anyways....On topic: Anyone else see Hawes as a future leader? The big if being IF he can play good enough to back it up in a few seasons. But by all accounts the kid definately has the attitude and personality for it.

I dunno, maybe this suggestion belongs in the 'Who will be the leader in '10' thread haha (hopefully LeBron )

 

[VF21]

Anyone else see Hawes as a future leader? The big if being IF he can play good enough to back it up in a few seasons. But by all accounts the kid definately has the attitude and personality for it.

I think it's quite possible Hawes could step up and be a leading force on the team. That's what is so much fun right now. Looking at the potential of our team as we go from then to now and now to future.

To paraphrase, our future could be so bright we all have to wear shades.