Dreadnought
Bench
It's funny because everyone's list has one player on it that I don't agree with. The definition of superstar is forever up to debate I guess.
Who are the SUPERstars? (split from trade thread)
- Thread starter TheBadGuy
- Start date
Dime Dropper
All-Star
My list of current true superstars is a lot shorter than others: 1. LeBron. 2. Durant. And maybe, MAYBE 3. Chris Paul.
Guys who can single-handedly, consistently, take over tight games and take you home.
There's other big stars of course who are all legitimate star players, but the likes of LeBron and Durant are once-in-a-generation type players (yes, I'm aware that they're both playing in the same generation).
Guys who can single-handedly, consistently, take over tight games and take you home.
There's other big stars of course who are all legitimate star players, but the likes of LeBron and Durant are once-in-a-generation type players (yes, I'm aware that they're both playing in the same generation).
S
SacKings2002NBAChampions
Guest
I obviously described the term superstar in my original post. Who are you to say that my definition to an arbitrary term is wrong?
To me, I am talking about athlete level superstardom. In that sense, I am talking about SKILL-SET. IF you choose to consider fame, then go ahead. It is not an indication of what kind of athlete a certain player was but that is fine. To many, Vlade Divac is a superstar and to others he was a great man and a great basketball player. I choose the latter because it is more indicative of his on court presence. He was by no means a superstar skill-set wise and his # wasn't retired for that reason but rather because he was a great man to the community of Sacramento and was a great leader surrounded by star players.
Divac was not a superstar, by any objective definition. Words have to have meaning. "SKILL-SET" is only part of the equation, even if you type it in all caps. No basketball player in history ever became a superstar on skillset alone.
Mad D
Starter
I agree with your list, I think the term superstar gets thrown around too loosely. Just last week I saw an article declaring John Wall a legit superstar.
There's nothing wrong with just being a star, but those three are play at a different level.
Superstar to me is someone with presence on and off the court. It's not just a skill set, in fact the "star" presence often transcends the skill set which then feeds into itself - superstars get calls only superstars get, inflating their stat lines; they also don't get called for things others do improving their "defense". I think there are 2-3 true superstars in the league at any one time with a max of about 5, though once a player reaches this level they usually maintain the perks even after their skill set erodes (see all star balloting).
At a minimum for me, "superstar" implies that even the most casual of fans would recognize a player from a picture of their face or an ad on TV.
At a minimum for me, "superstar" implies that even the most casual of fans would recognize a player from a picture of their face or an ad on TV.
Not to say your opinion is wrong.... but Hibbert?!?!? HIBBBERT?!?! Did you know that he was considered a disappointment by many pacer fans after they gave him a huge contract.. He's overrated because of his play in the ECF. Miami can't guard any bigs, therefore Hibbert shined. Wow I can't believe why anyone would include Roy Hibbert... he has no real offensive game, average rebounder, but good defender. Hibbert.. wow.. Hibbert?! He barely shoots .459% with almost 8rpg. Yesterday against the kings, he was a nonfactor against JT and Aaron Gray.. in almost 40mins of playing time he only had 11rebs.. that's pretty bad considering the kings shot for less than 39%... Come on man.. ROY HIBBERT of all people?!
jalfa
Starter
as Zach Lowe points out, there are several front office people around the league that estimate his worth at around $30M per year. he's not just a good defender, he's THE best rim protector in the league, which is maybe the most crucial skill-set to have in the league. other teams openly discuss trying to change defensive rules in order to negate his impact on the game, he's that good. the fact that Indiana fans thought he was a disappointment says nothing. fans see boxscores and mediocre numbers, they don't care about defensive impact, as it would seem is the case with you, even though it's been pretty much proven that defence is actually more important than offence, if you want to win a championship. he might not be a superstar in the traditional sense, but he clearly is one of the absolute premier players in this league.
What front offices around the league estimated his worth at 30M per year? A rim protector that couldn't shut down DMC... DMC shot 12-21 13rebs 31pts 1blk while Hibbert went for 4-8 shooting 4rebs 2blks.
How is he a premier player in the league? He's a good rim protector, but it's not like he's always stopping penetration to the basket or giving his man a tough time around the basket. By your count, it should also make Tyson Chandler a premier player in the league because he's a good rim protector and good defender. I can't believe you agree with him that Hibbert is a superstar in this league.. half of the fans in the NBA wouldn't even recognize his face on a billboard without a pacer's jersey on by other's account of what a superstar is.
jalfa
Starter
yay, the one game sample size line of arguing, great! a) no player in the entire league gives up as low a percentage in the paint as Hibbert does, so yes, he does stop penetration or at least does it better than anybody else in the league, b) Hibbert right now is better than Chandler ever was, c) prime Tyson Chandler might very well have been considered among the league's best players if he played these days. the way players are being evaluated has changed, rim protection is being emphasised more than ever, what with the no hand-checking and the allowing of hybrid zone defence. without a guy like Hibbert in the middle, you subject yourself to an endless layup lines, since it's basically impossible to stop penetration to the rim, as a Kings fan you should know this, since it's what we have seen around these parts for ages. a guy like Hibbert that manages to challenge shots without fouling that knows how and when to rotate can save your entire defence. again, defence is 50% of basketball and probably the more important side. I already pointed out that he's not a traditional superstar, but that's only because the average fan isn't as quick to understand the value of what he does.
You said that there's coaches who have valued him at 30million, and I asked who. You have no sources for that and I actually backed mines up with stats. It's arguable who's the better player in their prime. You do know that there's things called jumpers right? Not everyone team in the NBA wins through penetration at the rim. Your argument still doesn't make sense.. he's top 3 player in the league because of his defense.. I'm pretty sure to be a top player, you need an all around game which Hibbert does not have. On the offensive side, he does not create very good spacing for his teammates and clogs up the middle. NBA has 2 sides of the floor.. offense and defense.
jalfa
Starter
a) never said anything about sources and cited where I got that info from, whether you trust Lowe on it or not is your decision, but if you have an ounce of common sense, you would. b) every good offence in this league hunts down the most efficient shots, open threes, free throws, and shots in the paint. with a backstop like Hibbert you can close out on threes much more aggressively, because he'll shut down penetration and everything at the rim. he'll also do so without fouling, which takes care of the free throw part of the equation. you can try to beat his teams by pulling up from midrange, they'll happily concede that with the result being that they are running one of the most insanely effective defences of the last few decades. c) while his offensive game isn't spectacular, he isn't a liability on that end. he's got some post moves, he can hit a midrange shot, he can pass a bit, he can even catch the ball in a pick-and-roll and make a decision with it (it's where his spectacular offensive numbers from the Heat-Pacers series came from). in Indiana, he shares offensive responsibilities with a host of good players that all deserve touches. not saying he'd be putting up gargantuan numbers elsewhere, but they would look considerably better if he played in a system that gave him more responsibility on that end. I'm not even arguing that he's a top3 player, where did you get that from anyway? Hadlowe listed him among his top8 players in the league, you acted as if he had committed an act of blasphemy, I explained why it's reasonable to count Hibbert among those guys.
I just looked up the stats for last night's game and IT was 7/13 in the paint.. while Thornton was 7/7. Hibbert had 5blks, most of them coming from challenging JTs shot. Tonight Hibbert was in the game for a little under 20mins and he was fouled out with 5pts and 3rebs. Doesn't help with your argument that he can challenge shots without fouling. Refs called bloody murder in the game each time JT tried to challenge a shot, but when Hibbert does the same exact thing, it's because he's a great defender?
He's a good defender no doubt about it and should win DPOY, but he doesn't shut down "everything" at the rim. He has a pretty bad offensive game. He's not a liability, but having a fg % of just .459 is pretty bad when you compare it to all the other bigs in the NBA..http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals
Even Cuz who attempts 7 more shots per game is more consistent than Hibbert.
I got top 3 from the guy who ranked him 3rd overall... that's a crime... again... Hibbert only controls what goes on around the rim, he doesn't account for outside the paint where a majority of points come as well. In the NBA to be a star, you either have to have incredible offense, or have a good offense and defense. Hibbert reminds me of DeAndre Jordan except he's not as athletic nor explosive at the rim. Yet no one wants to say that DeAndre Jordan is anywhere near top 10 C even though he's one of the best defensive centers in the league.. yet Hibbert gets the nod?
jalfa
Starter
what's with this using single games to make your argument? if you're looking for a list that details defensive impact, here you go:
http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25
Hibbert is heads and shoulders above everybody else, as far as percentage given up, ranks fifth in challenges, and averages 3.4 fouls per game. if that's not elite rim protection without putting yourself into foul trouble, I don't know what is. also, I very much doubt that Hadlowe had his list in order, otherwise he wouldn't have put Paul at eight.
Hadlowe
Starter
I like Hibbert as a superstar for the same reason that I maintain that Bill Russell is tied with Jordan as GOAT. Without a controlling paint presence, you can't win consistently. It is the single most important feature of a winning team. Even Miami's notorious smallball playstyle is improved when a middling paint clog like Birdman is in the game.
And I rank Chris Paul at #8 because I'm biased against point guards. Paul is a very good floor general (one of only three real point guards in the league right now.) He is also a good enough defender to compensate for his lack of height. Gary Payton sums up my feelings about the point guard position pretty well here.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-b...dern-nba-payton-basically-175801742--nba.html
Yeah, but Mister Russell wasn't a superstar, either. He was the greatest winner ever, without question, and he never gets half the respect he deserves when people are talking about who "The Greatest" was, but he was not a superstar.
Telemachus
Starter
And while Russell was never a big scorer, his lowest scoring year (his last) was at 9.9 a game. I like Hibbert defensively, but he is far from a superstar.
I think the Russell thing comes down largely to an era issue. They just see someone who may have struggled with today's bigs so they knock his achievements down a bit.
jalfa
Starter
well, if it's in order, I don't quite agree with you list. though I'm conflicted about the actual impact of highly talented PGs, too.