Whats your optimal lineup with min

[Kingster]

I am going to go with

PG IT 26 min AB 13 min Jimmer 9 min
SG Reke 17 min MT 31 min
SF Johnson 28 min Reke 20 min
PF Thompson 33 min Robinson 15 min
C Cousins 38 min Hayes 10 min

hmm never realized the min crunch until you try to figure it out. Reke needs more time at SG but so does MT. I see why Smart plays Tyreke at SF now. you can't have him and MT and JJ on the court at the same time without killing the 3 pg's we have time.

It almost looks like we need to do a 2 for 1 trade. by the preseason. It almost looks like Brooks is an insurance policy waiting for Jimmer to come around. Cousins is our best Frontcourt player no doubt. But our best back court players play the same position so the crunch is on there. So Its hard to give Smart much more grief over Tyreke at SF. I mean you want him on the court and MT as well. but you want more than just 24 min out of each.

So Thornton has played very well at the 2; Johnson has played very well at the 3. Last year Tyreke played at the 3 as much because of the terrible 3s we had as because coach wanted him on the floor. Now it looks we have a very solid 3 in Johnson. Where exactly does that leave Tyreke? It's hard for me to believe that Tyreke's play would justify 20 minutes at the SF when you have Johnson. Sounds to me that Johnson should get the typical starter's minutes - 35-40 minutes a game. That leaves 8 to 13 minutes at the SF for Tyreke as a sub. Now you're left with the minutes at the SG. From all the accounts and from listening to the games, Tyreke's shooting is about the same as last year so far during the preseason. And Thornton has been killing it. That's makes the decision on minutes (and starting) even tougher on Smart.

 

[Kingster]

How many minutes has Smart played Tyreke at the pg position this preseason? I can't recall any. Anybody know?

 

[Entity]

no he has not played PG at all. he has started at SG and came off the bench SG and SF.

 

[Kingster]

no he has not played PG at all. he has started at SG and came off the bench SG and SF.

Thanks. So unless Smart abruptly changes his spots, Tyeke isn't going to be playing pg. Which means that minutes have got to come from the SG position. It's a zero sum game for Tyreke and Thornton.

 

[Entity]

yeah i see noway around it when it comes to the lineup tyreke will get time at SF if we like it or not. I really don't see the big deal he is just as productive as all the other SF we could trot out there aside from JJ who should be starting. Evans 6-6 220 Garcia 6-7 195 Salmons 6-6 207 Outlaw 6-9 207. Have any of those guys been more productive than Tyreke at SF??? in fact I have see threads hoping to get rid of each of those 3 players for over a year now. So with that in mind is Tyreke at SF for 15 min or so a game really that bad of an option considering the other SF's we have?? If Smart could somehow work it out that Tyreke is at SF when the other teams starting SF is on the bench would be ideal. but if you look at some of the starting SF's in the west Tyreke is not at a disadvantage with alot of them brandon rush, caron butler type players.

 

[mac]

yeah i see noway around it when it comes to the lineup tyreke will get time at SF if we like it or not. I really don't see the big deal he is just as productive as all the other SF we could trot out there aside from JJ who should be starting. Evans 6-6 220 Garcia 6-7 195 Salmons 6-6 207 Outlaw 6-9 207. Have any of those guys been more productive than Tyreke at SF??? in fact I have see threads hoping to get rid of each of those 3 players for over a year now. So with that in mind is Tyreke at SF for 15 min or so a game really that bad of an option considering the other SF's we have?? If Smart could somehow work it out that Tyreke is at SF when the other teams starting SF is on the bench would be ideal. but if you look at some of the starting SF's in the west Tyreke is not at a disadvantage with alot of them brandon rush, caron butler type players.

I think it's more about the rather proven likelihood that Tyreke is worse off at the 3 than at the 1/2 than it is about the fact that even then he's still better than most of our SFs. Heck, Isaiah Thomas may be a better SF than John Salmons, but that doesn't mean we should play him there.

 

[Entity]

I am simply going by the numbers crunch here. you got 6 guys that deserve min at 3 positions. this is not counting Outlaw, Cisco, Salmons or Honeycutt. this is assuming those 4 guys get 0 min. 144 total min for 3 positions. thats 24 each again giving 0 to the other 4 guys. now you can cut here and there for IT, Brooks, and Jimmer but those 3 guys can only play 1 position. so if you want to play reke at PG and get him good min there 15-20 then one or two of those 3 will be reduced to 5-10 min.

 

[pshn80]

According to the Bee article this morning Smart is going to start them all and play 12 on a situational basis. So we all are right with our offerings.

 

[King in England]

I think Uncia hit the nail on the head. Reke cannot play SF, period. Offensively, he's not involved with both IT/MT our there, or worse, Jimmer/MT. Second, when Reke is in MT seems to suffer as well. Neither is anywhere near being maximized when playing together off the ball. Third, Reke is worse at guarding SF's than either PG's or SG's. When he's at SF that also means we're small at the 1 and the 2, so we're effectively small and non defensive at three positions. That just is not a recipe for success. Not at all.

I would start

IT
Reke
JJ
TRob
Cuz

I'd start TRob as he looks like he would pair somewhat well with Cuz as a cleanup/hustle guy, and this would allow JT to come in for Cuz, giving us an actual backup center and more size. I hate any lineup where Chuck or TRob is the tallest. Again, not a recipe for success unless our goal is a WNBA championship.

Then, I'd bring MT in, and move Reke to point replacing IT. Rather have Reke getting his minutes outside of SG at the point than SF. Yeah you can say we don't win with Reke at point. We don't win with IT at point either. The winning % of the team with Reke at point his rookie year, a far less talented team than last years, was pretty comparable to our winning % with IT at point and a much more talented roster. At point we're maximizing Reke more than at SF and we're much better defensively. Some may say, what about Brooks? Well, what about him? Shouldn't have signed him in the first place. I'm not playing Reke at SF just because someone in our FO gets aroused by undersized chuckers and decided to add another one.

Then, I'm bring in Outlaw for JJ as backup SF, Brooks for Reke for a break, running a Brooks/MT backcourt for a few mins, and bringing JT in for Cuz, Chuck in for TRob. I wouldn't do this at the same time however as we need at least one, and preferably two of MT/Reke/Cuz on the court at all times. JT would also probably finish out halves as the 4 next to Cuz.

IT (28) Reke (14) Brooks (10)
Reke (22) MT (26)
JJ (35) Outlaw (13)
TRob (22) JT (16) Chuck (10)
Cuz (38) JT (10)

BTW, those who hate Reke at point. It's considerably better than Jimmer running point. Want to complain about not getting into our offense? Watch Jimmer struggle to ever set it up, have a tough time getting it to our wings at all, and basically jack a perimeter jumper every time he gets daylights. Reke also had only a brief stretch playing point under Smart, with a Cuz who finally had Westy off his back, and he did quite well during that time. He's more than capable of setting up the offense and getting it into Cuz.

Cuz- 38
Reke-36
JJ-35
IT-28
MT-26
JT-26
TRob-22
Outlaw-13
Chuck-10
Brooks-10

give or take a couple mins here and there.

You've pretty much summed up how I feel in this post however, as others have mentioned, how likely is it that we see a rotation like this in the near future. All the preseason signs point to Evans playing at the 3 before the point unfortunately.

To ask a slightly different question what does everyone expect to be our closing unit? I'm guessing we would like our best 3 players on the court? Personally I would prefer to see this line-up.

Evans
Thornton
Johnson
??
Cuz

I was thinking of maybe putting Hayes at PF for a veteran presence but wasn't sure.

 

[Bricklayer]

According to the Bee article this morning Smart is going to start them all and play 12 on a situational basis. So we all are right with our offerings.

Ever since Rick its just amateur hour. I mean good lord.

 

[Heuge]

PG- Brooks (22) Thomas (14) Reke (12)
SG- Reke (20) Thorton (24) Jimmer (2) Brooks (2)
SF- Johnson (24) Salmons (8) Garcia (8) Reke (4) TRob (4)
PF- Thompson (24) TRob (16) Outlaw (4) Hayes (4)
C- Cousins (36) Thompson (6) Hayes (6)

 

[kingjatt]

According to the Bee article this morning Smart is going to start them all and play 12 on a situational basis. So we all are right with our offerings.

That sounds great....for a 7th grade YMCA team, not for a Professional basketball team. according to the article he is still sticking to his "any guy on any night" mentality in the regular season and not having a set starting rotation citing the spurs as an example, well Keith the spurs have 3 dinosaurs to rest and come playoff time all of that "play 12 guys" situationally goes away because it DOESN'T work.

Without creating a hierarchy within the roster it just leaves young guys confused about their role. alot of basketball, along with other sports is mental, how is a young guy going to take starting and playing heavy crunch time minutes one night to playing garbage time off the bench on another night.

I agree with brick it seriously has been amateur hour at coach for us, we finally have a possible playoff worthy roster and our coach wants to be the nice guy and play them all. even though we have the roster to contend things might get ugly this season.

 

[andjel]

First minutes for main guys if the goal is to keep all of them minute happy:
pg: Evans (14)
sg: Evans (15) Thornton (33)
sf: Evans (6)
pf:
c: Cousins (as much as he can)

Now including the rest of the support crew that I do not care much how happy they are:
pg: Evans (14), IT/AB/Jimmer split, one of them plays 25-28, the other 6-9, third one nothing depending on match up
sg: Evans (15), Thornton (33)
sf: Evans (6), JJ (32) assuming that he does not catch Kings SF curse. The other 10 min, TRobb + your favorite scrubb, does not matter.
pf: JT (18), The remaining minutes split between TRobb and Chuck, winner gets ~20, the other guy ~10.
c: Cousins (36), JT (12)

Now when there is a blowout either way, decrease Evans, MT and DC minutes 2-4 min each and give them to the guys who are lacking minutes (losers of PG and PF battles).

 

[mac]

That sounds great....for a 7th grade YMCA team, not for a Professional basketball team. according to the article he is still sticking to his "any guy on any night" mentality in the regular season and not having a set starting rotation citing the spurs as an example, well Keith the spurs have 3 dinosaurs to rest and come playoff time all of that "play 12 guys" situationally goes away because it DOESN'T work.

Without creating a hierarchy within the roster it just leaves young guys confused about their role. alot of basketball, along with other sports is mental, how is a young guy going to take starting and playing heavy crunch time minutes one night to playing garbage time off the bench on another night.

I agree with brick it seriously has been amateur hour at coach for us, we finally have a possible playoff worthy roster and our coach wants to be the nice guy and play them all. even though we have the roster to contend things might get ugly this season.

Well he says it's any guy on any night, but in reality we all know that Cuz can be out there shooting 1-15 with 4 rebounds and 0-10 from 3 and Smart will still keep him in the game.

 

[Bricklayer]

Well he says it's any guy on any night, but in reality we all know that Cuz can be out there shooting 1-15 with 4 rebounds and 0-10 from 3 and Smart will still keep him in the game.

Whihc is the way it should be.

Its just that almost every top quality coach in the league INCLUDING GREGG POPOVICH until he had his team for 15 straight years with the same core personnel, makes that the rule for ALL his top guys. PJ notoriously did not sub. Riley ran 8 and even 7 man rotations. Fans who did not get it used to complain bitterly about Adelman's 8 man. Sloan was actually so basic as to run his guys on a strict substitution pattern that rarely altered no matter how badly things were going. Grow a pair coach. Identify your Top 8 guys. If you aren't up to it, I'll do it for you. Play them. A lot. Becuase, coach, you know what the x factor is with so many teams? Familiarity. The longer a team plays together with the same personnel, the better they get to know each other. Unless of course their coach does everything in his power to scuttle that and make it all about what a nifty coach he his rather than about his players' comfort zone.

 

[sdballer]

Whihc is the way it should be.

Its just that almost every top quality coach in the league INCLUDING GREGG POPOVICH until he had his team for 15 straight years with the same core personnel, makes that the rule for ALL his top guys. PJ notoriously did not sub. Riley ran 8 and even 7 man rotations. Fans who did not get it used to complain bitterly about Adelman's 8 man. Sloan was actually so basic as to run his guys on a strict substitution pattern that rarely altered no matter how badly things were going. Grow a pair coach. Identify your Top 8 guys. If you aren't up to it, I'll do it for you. Play them. A lot. Becuase, coach, you know what the x factor is with so many teams? Familiarity. The longer a team plays together with the same personnel, the better they get to know each other. Unless of course their coach does everything in his power to scuttle that and make it all about what a nifty coach he his rather than about his players' comfort zone.

Couldn't agree more. I'm so tired of smart's rhetoric and equality bs. No other successful coaches try to play all 12 guys, mix positions and rotations constantly and basically try to act like they can build a team through chaos.

 

[jcwkings]

If this team is gonna be a running team we need the 10-11 man rotation to keep energy up at all times. Teams with short 7-8 man rotations generally play plodding basketball (i.e Lakers this year). The good thing is most of our players have some sort of use for our style of play. Yes even Jimmer, Garcia and Outlaw. The two former being able to spread the floor and Garcia being a pesky defender, and Outlaw should be able to run hard and finish at the rim

 

[jcwkings]

has anyone given a thought to Hayes starting? His post defense would be most useful against first string guys,and it would help Cuz stay out of foul trouble. Also something like Brooks, Evans, JJ, Hayes, Cousins is solid defensively with a bench mob of IT/MT/platoon/T Rob/JT. It makes alot of sense when you think of it, although im sure Smart isn't headed in that direction

 

[joemama]

not sure how honeycutt get anointed 16 min having not played at all in preseason and just some garbage last year. tyreke only 20 min and cousins only 32 wow.

Outlaw and Salmons are worse than dead fish, a dead fish can't go 1-5 consistantly. Honeycutt is a warm body and that ALONE is way better than the live fish or the dead fish (salmons and outlaw). That is why Honecutt would get some playing time.

Tyreke has not played well as of late, and minutes do change. But with the five turnovers in the first game against the lakers, being completely lost and offense, and not looking to pass ever SHOULD take some minutes away from reke.

Also Hayes good play as of late has earned him some deccent minutes behind cousins.

 

[Spike]

According to the Bee article this morning Smart is going to start them all and play 12 on a situational basis. So we all are right with our offerings.

Then this team is truly forked.

 

[Spike]

If this team is gonna be a running team we need the 10-11 man rotation to keep energy up at all times. Teams with short 7-8 man rotations generally play championship basketball (i.e Lakers this year). The good thing is most of our players have some sort of use for our style of play. Yes even Jimmer, Garcia and Outlaw. The two former being able to spread the floor and Garcia being a pesky defender, and Outlaw should be able to run hard and finish at the rim

Fixed.

 

[sidney]

Then this team is truly forked.

That's not what today's article said. Jones said it looks like PG and SG starters are still being decided but Johnson, JT, and Cousins appear to have locked the front court positions down.

 

[Jkbiker]

Brooks (15)/Evans (18)/IT (15)/Fredette (0)
Evans (18)/Thornton (30)
Johnson (35)/Garcia (13)/Outlaw(0)/Salmons (0)/Honeycutt (0)
Robinson (30)Thompson (18)
Cousins (35)/Thompson (13)

I like Brooks with Reke to start since Reke and Cuz needs to learn to play
off each other with Brooks providing the outside threat for Cuz and Evans to pass out to

When Reke is at PG I like having MT and Garcia at perimeter for the same reason

I like TRob to start since JT can sub in at both positions and Chuck can stay on bench unless foul trouble/injuries

I like the defensive toughness of starting unit

Reke,Brooks,Cuz Offense
Cuz,Trob,JJ Defense

It,Thorton,Garcia Bench Offense
Garcia, IT, JT Bench defense

If Garcia struggles then use Outlaw/Salmons

 

[jcwkings]

Fixed.

so you want a roster consisting of Tyreke Evans, Isaiah Thomas, Aaron Brooks, Marcus Thornton, Thomas Robinson to play methodical half court game? lol

 

[Spike]

PG- Brooks (22) Thomas (14) Reke (12)
SG- Reke (20) Thorton (24) Jimmer (2) Brooks (2)
SF- Johnson (24) Salmons (8) Garcia (8) Reke (4) TRob (4)
PF- Thompson (24) TRob (16) Outlaw (4) Hayes (4)
C- Cousins (36) Thompson (6) Hayes (6)

I was thinking something similar:
PG - Brooks (20) Thomas (16) Evans (12)
SG - Evans (20) Thornton (24) Brooks (4)
SF - Johnson (24) Robinson (8) Salmons (8)
PF - Thompson (20) Robinson (16) Hayes (10)
C - Cousins (36) Thompson (12)

I see Hayes's minutes going down at PF as Robinson's minutes increase. I am averse to Smartball™, which is why I won't put Evans at SF or Hayes at C, but I understand why Hayes might need to see minutes at the 5 due to foul trouble. SF/PF minutes aren't complete, because I figure there should be spot minutes available there for Outlaw, etc., dependent upon matchup. Same with Jimmer's minutes...not sure where they are going to come.

Either way, Smart needs to settle on a rotation, and deal with the fallout.

 

[Spike]

so you want a roster consisting of Tyreke Evans, Isaiah Thomas, Aaron Brooks, Marcus Thornton, Thomas Robinson to play methodical half court game? lol

I don't know if you're serious or not. I'm guessing not, but I know that lineups of

Evans/Thornton/Johnson/Thompson/Cousins
Brooks/Evans/Johnson/Robinson/Cousins
Thomas/Evans/Salmons/Robinson/Hayes

are capable, and probably well suited, for a half-court offense. There are plenty of players who can cut, drive, post up (well, except for IT/Brooks)
If Smart trots out a lineup of Thomas/Brooks/Thornton/Evans/Robinson, then I stand by my statement of this franchise being completely forked.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

barring injury or foul trouble, Garcia, Jimmer, Honeycutt, and probably Outlaw shouldnt see any minutes unless the game is a blow out

 

[Bricklayer]

with the 3 man scrum not resolving at PF, the PGs playing to a draw etc., I will just go ahead with this suggestion:

Cousins
Hayes
Johnson
Evans
Brooks

just about the best we can do on defense. Both forwards are defenders with good passing skills who can stay out of the way of the offensive players. A clear #1/#2/#3 option in Cousins/Reke/Brooks. Brooks has to carry the 3pt shooting himself, but since he led the league in 3pt chucking a couple of years ago I doubt its out of his comfort zone. Chuck takes the best post player on defense, thus hopefully saving Boogie from foul trouble.

Off the bench you go:

Thornton
IT
JT
TRob
with spot minutes for Cisco

IT and Thornton work well together, and with all our other supplemental passers (Reke, JJ, Hayes) in the starting lineup, Thomas can dominate the ball and run the show for the reserves. TRob is paired with JT, who provides the size. Cisco is designated 3pt bomber. There are enough shots in that lineup for TRob, if he starts to get his offense together. And you use the reserves as a running crew, which Smart loves anyway.

Now of course the problem is that Thornton is too good to get limited minutes, so as the 6th man he is going to have to be out there a lot with Reke, forcing Reke to the SF. But those minutes should mostly come against the other team's reserves, so that Reke is matched against a Matt Barnes or Perry Jones or Devin Ebanks or somebody ratehr than LeBron, and Durant and MWP.

 

[Entity]

with the 3 man scrum not resoilving at PF, the PGs playing to a draw etc., I will just go ahead with this suggestion:

Cousins
Hayes
Johnson
Evans
Brooks

just about the best we can do on defense. Both forwards are defenders with good passing skills who can stay out of the way of the offensive players. A clear #1/#2/#3 option in Cousins/Reke/Brooks. Brooks has to carry the 3pt shooting himself, but since he led the league in 3pt chcuking a couple of years ago I doubt its out of his comfort zone. Chuck takes the best post player on deense, thus hopefully saving Boogie from foul trouble.

Off the bench you go:

Thornton
IT
JT
TRob
with spot minutes for Cisco

IT and Thornton work well together, and with all our other supplemental passers (Reke, JJ, Hayes) in the starting lineup, Thomas can dominate the ball and run the show for the reserves. TRob is paired with JT, who provides the size. Cisco is designated 3pt bomber. There are enough shots in that lineup for TRob, if he starts to get his offense together. And you use the reserves as a running crew, which Smart loves anyway.

Now of course the problem is that Thornton is too good to get limited minutes, so as the 6th man he is going to have to be out there a lot with Reke, forcing Reke to the SF. But those minutes should mostly come against the other team's reserves, so that Reke is matched against a Matt Barnes or Perry Jones or Devin Ebanks or somebody ratehr than LeBron, and Durant and MWP.

that is what I have been trying to say the whole time. I was never advocationg Tyreke as the #1 SF. but some teams starting Butler and rush and batum. Reke can handle those assignments easy. I like that Brick. I like it alot and I am going to stick with it.