Ben's lack of ball handling/creator skills is more of a concern than basketball IQ. That's just inexperience at this point. Such bold proclamations about a guy 30 games into his career after a single college season. He's thinking too much out there.
He's a rookie. Not sure what else to say. He needs to work on things. I just don't get the IQ thing.
He's a rookie. Not sure what else to say. He needs to work on things. I just don't get the IQ thing.
I think there are many type of different pgs now.
I don't think people realize there are 2 cases of a scoring pg.
1) shoot first pg who looks to get his shot first(occasionally will play iso) then look to get shots for his teammates
An example would be Kyrie Irving. He's a great player in general, but always looks to get his shot first which sadly might be the reason why he's had a series of injuries. A few other examples of scoring pgs would be Damian Lillard, Russell Westbrook, and Derrick Rose.
2) a pg who is an efficient scorer that can and will score most likely when needed to, but will mainly look to get shots for his teammates first.
I would almost put Chris Paul in here, but I believe he's more of one of the best pass first pgs right now. An example would be Ty Lawson. He's a pg that has good scoring abilities, but will always look to help his team get their share of shots first. He'll score when needed or asked to. A few other examples would be Jrue Holiday and Stephen Curry.
I think it really depends on how the team is built, whether it relies scoring heavily on their pg or not.
I honestly think the kings need to step back on a scoring pg. The kings are full of scorers and a pass first pg is something that the kings would love to have. I think IT is a perfect 6th man for any team in the NBA. I feel like he's a natural 6th man and scoring pg that's forcing himself to become a pass first. I love IT, but we should just let the man does what he does best..score. We need to bring in or draft a defensive 6'5 pg that is looking to dish the ball out to every open corner and hit Cuz with that PR. We can be such a dangerous team if we insert in a pass first PG, move IT to the bench, and obtain shooters that can stretch out the floor(Ryan Anderson, Steve Novak, Kyle Kover, and etc.).
I don't think people realize there are 2 cases of a scoring pg.
1) shoot first pg who looks to get his shot first(occasionally will play iso) then look to get shots for his teammates
An example would be Kyrie Irving. He's a great player in general, but always looks to get his shot first which sadly might be the reason why he's had a series of injuries. A few other examples of scoring pgs would be Damian Lillard, Russell Westbrook, and Derrick Rose.
2) a pg who is an efficient scorer that can and will score most likely when needed to, but will mainly look to get shots for his teammates first.
I would almost put Chris Paul in here, but I believe he's more of one of the best pass first pgs right now. An example would be Ty Lawson. He's a pg that has good scoring abilities, but will always look to help his team get their share of shots first. He'll score when needed or asked to. A few other examples would be Jrue Holiday and Stephen Curry.
I think it really depends on how the team is built, whether it relies scoring heavily on their pg or not.
I honestly think the kings need to step back on a scoring pg. The kings are full of scorers and a pass first pg is something that the kings would love to have. I think IT is a perfect 6th man for any team in the NBA. I feel like he's a natural 6th man and scoring pg that's forcing himself to become a pass first. I love IT, but we should just let the man does what he does best..score. We need to bring in or draft a defensive 6'5 pg that is looking to dish the ball out to every open corner and hit Cuz with that PR. We can be such a dangerous team if we insert in a pass first PG, move IT to the bench, and obtain shooters that can stretch out the floor(Ryan Anderson, Steve Novak, Kyle Kover, and etc.).
I don't think Kings need pass-first PG either. What they need is tall and good laterally ball-handler with good shooting and passing technique. Cousins is ISOing, so is Gay. You just need a guard, who can bring the ball to the other side (ball-handler), dump the ball to Cousins or Gay in the spot they want (tall with good passing technique) and then spot up (shooting), while providing defense (tall and good laterally). Excellent court vision, thread the needle passes and directing of offensive traffic is not a necessity.
I guess I just don't get comparing awful looking rookies to HOF type of players. What's the point in even comparing them if you don't think the younger guy will be as successful as the guy you're comparing him to? It's like saying yeah McLemore's game is a lot like Ray Allen's game.....except he can't shoot, can't dribble and can't play anything that remotely resembles defense. McLemore and Allen are roughly the same size and are/were both athletic with quick releases. That's where the comparisons end.
I get that he's young but at some point you either have to get what you can for him or gamble on an awful looking rookie becoming a serviceable player. I don't pay any attention to per36 unless the player plays a lot of minutes. Thomas Robinson has per36 numbers that would lead you to believe he was a top 10 PF. I just don't see it with Ben. People make too many excuses for him. Yeah he seems like a real nice kid and he's definitely going to put in the work to become a great player, but I don't know if he has the talent. You can say his teammates don't pass it to him, but most nights it seems like he goes 1-5 or 1-7. If you can't take advantage of the shots you're given, why would you ever deserve to be given more? I'd much rather him go 1-5 than go 3-15...which he would most definitely do on half the nights if given more shots each game.
I get that he's young but at some point you either have to get what you can for him or gamble on an awful looking rookie becoming a serviceable player. I don't pay any attention to per36 unless the player plays a lot of minutes. Thomas Robinson has per36 numbers that would lead you to believe he was a top 10 PF. I just don't see it with Ben. People make too many excuses for him. Yeah he seems like a real nice kid and he's definitely going to put in the work to become a great player, but I don't know if he has the talent. You can say his teammates don't pass it to him, but most nights it seems like he goes 1-5 or 1-7. If you can't take advantage of the shots you're given, why would you ever deserve to be given more? I'd much rather him go 1-5 than go 3-15...which he would most definitely do on half the nights if given more shots each game.
For Ben, this is a development season where the goal is a draft pick.
I truly do not understand why people have such a hard time understanding that. Who cares if he sucks? It's nothing but ping pong balls. You want to play MT? THere's absolutely nothing to be gained.
9 losses to go before the playoffs become just about mathematically impossible.
I truly do not understand why people have such a hard time understanding that. Who cares if he sucks? It's nothing but ping pong balls. You want to play MT? THere's absolutely nothing to be gained.
9 losses to go before the playoffs become just about mathematically impossible.
I dont think McLemore is learning by getting his brains beaten out every game. It is having a detrimental effect on the rest of the team as well. Trouble is the team does not have the personnel to put Ben on the Bench. They need a PG and a SG who can play even a modicum of defense. That would go a long way toward improving the team as a whole.
Ben off the bench against other teams 2nd team SG's would be ideal. However MT is not playing like he wants to start anything but packing. I am pretty certain that MT and others wont be here at the end of the season. So stay tuned to the Rumor Pages....
Ben off the bench against other teams 2nd team SG's would be ideal. However MT is not playing like he wants to start anything but packing. I am pretty certain that MT and others wont be here at the end of the season. So stay tuned to the Rumor Pages....
You forgot to add that Ben hadn't made a movie with Denzel Washington. 
He's beginning to remind me of Jimmer; he can't do the one thing he is known for and that is shooting. Does a person forget how to shoot? I doubt it but if he has lost his confidence, I can see the shots not falling. I'm not ready to throw in the towel at all although I am very surprised. I think at some point he has to go back to the bench just to give him a better chance to get his shot going. Where is he going to find a shot on the court with Cuz, Gay, and IT as there are only so many shots to go around? It's just that he has had plays designed for him to start a few games and he hasn't come through. Patience folks.
As an idle thought before I hit the Post Reply button, I wonder what Malone thinks he is accomplishing with Ben. I suspect he is working on his defense. Just trying to be as positive as possible as otherwise I don't get it.
He's beginning to remind me of Jimmer; he can't do the one thing he is known for and that is shooting. Does a person forget how to shoot? I doubt it but if he has lost his confidence, I can see the shots not falling. I'm not ready to throw in the towel at all although I am very surprised. I think at some point he has to go back to the bench just to give him a better chance to get his shot going. Where is he going to find a shot on the court with Cuz, Gay, and IT as there are only so many shots to go around? It's just that he has had plays designed for him to start a few games and he hasn't come through. Patience folks.As an idle thought before I hit the Post Reply button, I wonder what Malone thinks he is accomplishing with Ben. I suspect he is working on his defense. Just trying to be as positive as possible as otherwise I don't get it.
They need a serviceable 2. No doubt about that. Thornton looking like he has is quite a surprise. Changed the bring Ben along slowly plan. And that may be causing irreparable harm, if that's possible with a guy so young.
Jimmer had 4 years in college, TROB 3. They were almost instant flops cause they weren't nearly as green. I expected more from them: Ben I expect more as well, but I also expect games like last night. Unfortunately games like last night are becoming business as usual.
I just get the feeling very high up onMalone's season goals is develop Ben. If that fails, and so far it has badly, then you have to move on as a franchise. MTs amazing inability to be even avg has put us in a deep hole. Trading away two nba caliber guards for Rudy is proving devastating. Impossible to win with such terrible guards. Doesn't matter who elseis on the team.
Kings are one injury away from being the worst team in the NBA. And it could be to any of the big 3. We are 1 deep at 3 positions and 0 deep at the other two. Top 5 pick is well within reach. It'll be really interesting to see if fake lingering injuries show up after the all star break.
Jimmer had 4 years in college, TROB 3. They were almost instant flops cause they weren't nearly as green. I expected more from them: Ben I expect more as well, but I also expect games like last night. Unfortunately games like last night are becoming business as usual.
I just get the feeling very high up onMalone's season goals is develop Ben. If that fails, and so far it has badly, then you have to move on as a franchise. MTs amazing inability to be even avg has put us in a deep hole. Trading away two nba caliber guards for Rudy is proving devastating. Impossible to win with such terrible guards. Doesn't matter who elseis on the team.
Kings are one injury away from being the worst team in the NBA. And it could be to any of the big 3. We are 1 deep at 3 positions and 0 deep at the other two. Top 5 pick is well within reach. It'll be really interesting to see if fake lingering injuries show up after the all star break.
Last edited:
did you just say the Rudy Gay trade is proving devastating? In the last 4 games we have two wins against top teams, one close game against a top team, and a no-show against a garbage team. One of our best 4 game stretches in recent memory. What's so devastating about it?
As long as the locker room doesn't come undone over MLM's performance I think we are fine staying the course. Upside - MLM works out. Downside - MLM doesn't pan out, but we wind up with a top 7 draft pick.
As long as the locker room doesn't come undone over MLM's performance I think we are fine staying the course. Upside - MLM works out. Downside - MLM doesn't pan out, but we wind up with a top 7 draft pick.
I see the Rudy trade as a temporary tanking move, with more moves hopefully to come in the next month, or at least this offseason. It was more what we got rid of than what we got. What we got is fine, but he's not turning the "team" around on his own. He's playing the best ball he has in years, and guess what? We still aren't even a .500 team with him. The devastating part was losing our entire bench, and of course moving our 6th man to being a starter. The problem now is our only asset I think we'd consider trading today is that 6th man. Hard to see any way to improve through trades that doesn't involve moving him.
You can't win with one nba guard that can't guard a garbage can in the starting lineup. You just can't. Not unless the other team is asleep at the wheel, which describes both Houston games. We are 4-7 since the trade. And the D was at least a few games ago almost 10 ppg worse. Anyone got an update on that? I attribute that to the utter lack of depth on this team, and just terrible defensive players in over their heads.
You can't win with one nba guard that can't guard a garbage can in the starting lineup. You just can't. Not unless the other team is asleep at the wheel, which describes both Houston games. We are 4-7 since the trade. And the D was at least a few games ago almost 10 ppg worse. Anyone got an update on that? I attribute that to the utter lack of depth on this team, and just terrible defensive players in over their heads.
If you can't see the soul sucking effect playing a clueless kid is having on this whole attempt to build something, I don't know what to say. Its frustrating the hell out of a bunch of people trying very hard to win now. Its embarrassing us as a franchise once more. The odds are probably 50/50 Ben even survives to see 21 before Cuz just throttles him to death to end the pain.
Ben needs to go to the bench. I would start Jimmer at SG and bring Ben or Marcus off the bench. Jimmer is the only one shooting consistently. There is no reason to start Ben when he is providing no points for a team that needs them. You dont want to kill his confidence or whats left of it by watching him struggle the rest of the year as a starter. I think D league would have benefited more than anything. He cant dribble to save his life which is shocking for a top 10 pick. I thought Jimmer didnt have handles but Ben makes him look like Michael Jordan.
I don't think the coach or front office are trying to win at all. I really don't. It's far from embarassing. How can anything embarrass anyone associated with this franchise after the Maloofs reign of terror?
I guess that's where we diverge.
I'm fine with starting MT. He's just as bad though. Throw Jimmer in there for all I care. I just don't see any long term benefit to doing that.
You really badly need to listen to Malone's increasingly disgusted press conferences.
Look, you want Ben to be cast as a villain and a flop in Sacramento? Just keep on throwing him out there to the wolves. Keep on having him fail and rob his team and fans of success in the process. Its a perfect way to do it. TRob's glow wore off about this time too. The "feel good story Kansas rook from a tough background" thing has played out before, just last year. And we weren't nearly as serious about getting better last year. This is not doing anybody any favors, including Ben. On the bench his "potential" is protected. He can pop up for stretches. Play well and get more minutes to look good. play poorly and have his minutes shortened. Almost never be pointed to as why we lost. Throw him out front and center to be embarrassed by every mediocrity in the league and that "potential" begins to look awfully tattered in a hurry, and all the good kid/feel good story/starry eyed awe he seems to have of the league in the world isn't going to hold the wolves at bay unless he shapes up, and quick. He's still a pro being paid millions of dollars to play a game this year, and half the nights you'd do just as well with me out there.
Look, you want Ben to be cast as a villain and a flop in Sacramento? Just keep on throwing him out there to the wolves. Keep on having him fail and rob his team and fans of success in the process. Its a perfect way to do it. TRob's glow wore off about this time too. The "feel good story Kansas rook from a tough background" thing has played out before, just last year. And we weren't nearly as serious about getting better last year. This is not doing anybody any favors, including Ben. On the bench his "potential" is protected. He can pop up for stretches. Play well and get more minutes to look good. play poorly and have his minutes shortened. Almost never be pointed to as why we lost. Throw him out front and center to be embarrassed by every mediocrity in the league and that "potential" begins to look awfully tattered in a hurry, and all the good kid/feel good story/starry eyed awe he seems to have of the league in the world isn't going to hold the wolves at bay unless he shapes up, and quick. He's still a pro being paid millions of dollars to play a game this year, and half the nights you'd do just as well with me out there.
I agree. Send him to the bench...not to make the team better, but to get his confidence back. You could run most any SG from the D-League out there and have him do the same job or better than McLemore on most nights. The only tiny shred of hope that I hold out is the fact that he's had a few 20 point games this year. Most garbage players aren't capable of scoring 20 points in an NBA game so that's the one good sign. It's just frustrating to see those performances followed by 3 nights in a row where he'll shoot 1-6, 2-7, 1-3. I don't think he's going to be any better off the bench though. We don't have a backup PG to get him the ball. He'll struggle just like DWill. Either way at least he wont be front and center sucking it up every night. The team just has to decide to stick with him through the whole thing or trade him off while teams still think he can be like Ray Allen.
There is no point comparing rookies/prospects to any NBA veterans .. and yet everyone does it. Because it's a lot easier than watching a hundred hours of game tape and drawing your own conclusions. It's a lazy way of explaining something that you can really only understand with your own eyes. Anybody who spends a lot of time analyzing the draft has a backlog of prior impressions to draw from -- I liked this guy a lot and he never panned out or I thought this guy was a scrub and he's anything but. You continue to adjust and make your best guesses. It's not just me, a lot of those best guesses saw McLemore as a future star.
And I guess your definition of an awful rookie and mine are just not the same. I see a player who clearly has talent progressing very slowly, but still progressing. Every time he steps out on the floor he's facing players he hasn't faced before defensively. He's adjusting to new teammates, a new coach, and a level of competition that is a huge step above NCAA ball. He was never going to step in and be a big time contributor from day one like Tyreke was because he doesn't play with the ball in his hands. And shooting percentages even out over the course of a season with lots of repetitions. You're looking at a small sample size right now and trying to tell me that a player who has a history of shooting the ball very well suddenly can't shoot. I don't buy it. Sometimes he rushes things a bit but the form still looks good.
Perhaps last year's awful Thomas Robinson trade has shortened some people's time table for expected improvement, but if you need further proof that it was an awful trade how about the fact that Robinson is in year 2 of a 4 year rookie deal and none of the guys we got for him are still on the team several months later. Maybe McLemore isn't moving along at the rate some would prefer, but he is getting better and it's far too early for anyone to declare that they've figured out his ceiling. John Wall came into the league as a highly celebrated #1 pick. Everybody was raving about his potential. He got the ball every game and was expected to lead his team. It's taken him 4 years to even sniff an All Star spot in a weak conference but if you watch what he's doing this season, you can easily see a 5 year period coming up where he's the best PG in the league. McLemore may end up being better than Ray Allen. If you believe in someone's talent, you have to give them a chance to develop it.
But it's all rather simple for me. I'm only going to say this one more time and then I'm done with this topic for good. Some people look at a block of granite and see only a block of granite while some see the statue of David. If you're thinking of trading Ben McLemore because you're unhappy with the player he is right now, than you're really missing the point.
And I guess your definition of an awful rookie and mine are just not the same. I see a player who clearly has talent progressing very slowly, but still progressing. Every time he steps out on the floor he's facing players he hasn't faced before defensively. He's adjusting to new teammates, a new coach, and a level of competition that is a huge step above NCAA ball. He was never going to step in and be a big time contributor from day one like Tyreke was because he doesn't play with the ball in his hands. And shooting percentages even out over the course of a season with lots of repetitions. You're looking at a small sample size right now and trying to tell me that a player who has a history of shooting the ball very well suddenly can't shoot. I don't buy it. Sometimes he rushes things a bit but the form still looks good.
Perhaps last year's awful Thomas Robinson trade has shortened some people's time table for expected improvement, but if you need further proof that it was an awful trade how about the fact that Robinson is in year 2 of a 4 year rookie deal and none of the guys we got for him are still on the team several months later. Maybe McLemore isn't moving along at the rate some would prefer, but he is getting better and it's far too early for anyone to declare that they've figured out his ceiling. John Wall came into the league as a highly celebrated #1 pick. Everybody was raving about his potential. He got the ball every game and was expected to lead his team. It's taken him 4 years to even sniff an All Star spot in a weak conference but if you watch what he's doing this season, you can easily see a 5 year period coming up where he's the best PG in the league. McLemore may end up being better than Ray Allen. If you believe in someone's talent, you have to give them a chance to develop it.
But it's all rather simple for me. I'm only going to say this one more time and then I'm done with this topic for good. Some people look at a block of granite and see only a block of granite while some see the statue of David. If you're thinking of trading Ben McLemore because you're unhappy with the player he is right now, than you're really missing the point.
Last edited:
Ben McLemore has disappointed me to an extent. For understandable reasons, however. Not because we're losing games. I'm frustrated with Ben because he's shooting 37% overall from the field. I know that the transition coming from college to the NBA varies from player to player in terms of difficulty, but I want to see more consistency from Ben. I want to see him taking smarter shots, as a player whose strength coming out of college was shooting, his FG% will hopefully rise. Another aspect of his game that I hope he improves on is his ball-handling ability, or lack thereof.
Michael Malone shows us game after game that he has a tremendous amount of confidence in our rookie, as he is normally in the game come crunch time. What this tells me is that our coaching staff is willing to endure the errors that a rookie is going to make being put in these situations, in hopes that the experience will properly develop and transcend his game.
Nonetheless, I believe McLemore can be a solid shooting guard in this league. Do I believe he is the answer to our void at the position? No. Not now, and not any time soon.
Michael Malone shows us game after game that he has a tremendous amount of confidence in our rookie, as he is normally in the game come crunch time. What this tells me is that our coaching staff is willing to endure the errors that a rookie is going to make being put in these situations, in hopes that the experience will properly develop and transcend his game.
Nonetheless, I believe McLemore can be a solid shooting guard in this league. Do I believe he is the answer to our void at the position? No. Not now, and not any time soon.
If you really think Ben is holding us back, then I applaud your optimism.
I'm not disagreeing he's been terrible. Looking like another lost draft pick at this point. I get it. But what earthly reason is there to play thornton? He's not any better. I mean, I'd love to be bringing him off the bench. We just don't have any guards worth a damn outside little man. Whoever starts, the same glaring terrible SG hole exists. That's the bottom line. But you have to play Ben either way. Benching him for being young and inexperienced sends a strange message, especially when your veteran has been pretty much just as bad. I still see the same potential that was there in summer league. And I see a lot of the same problems. Last night was spectacularly bad. I'm not arguing otherwise. But there have been glimpses too.
Ben is playing hard, and seems nice enough. I don't see him ever being a villain. Trob isn't a villain. He just isn't any good. I don't see Jimmer as a bad guy either. Just a bad player. He didn't make the pick.
We're just not in win now mode. Maybe if enough people say it enough it'll sink in, but I doubt it. I understand fan's frustration, but they have to play and develop the kid. He'd be getting benched if MT did anything to warrant playing time. But he hasn't.
Malone is pissed cause the team is tuning him out. Not because of losing. In my opinion. He was hired to build a good culture and defense. Neither seems to be happening. Winning or losing is secondary. The team isn't talented enough to win in this league. It takes more than 3 players out of 12. And these 3 aren't hall of famers. Well, one. They have nothing in common with Boston or Miami's big 3. These are not 3 massively accomplished players joining forces. And considering how little depth we have, winning is going to have to wait.
I'm not disagreeing he's been terrible. Looking like another lost draft pick at this point. I get it. But what earthly reason is there to play thornton? He's not any better. I mean, I'd love to be bringing him off the bench. We just don't have any guards worth a damn outside little man. Whoever starts, the same glaring terrible SG hole exists. That's the bottom line. But you have to play Ben either way. Benching him for being young and inexperienced sends a strange message, especially when your veteran has been pretty much just as bad. I still see the same potential that was there in summer league. And I see a lot of the same problems. Last night was spectacularly bad. I'm not arguing otherwise. But there have been glimpses too.
Ben is playing hard, and seems nice enough. I don't see him ever being a villain. Trob isn't a villain. He just isn't any good. I don't see Jimmer as a bad guy either. Just a bad player. He didn't make the pick.
We're just not in win now mode. Maybe if enough people say it enough it'll sink in, but I doubt it. I understand fan's frustration, but they have to play and develop the kid. He'd be getting benched if MT did anything to warrant playing time. But he hasn't.
Malone is pissed cause the team is tuning him out. Not because of losing. In my opinion. He was hired to build a good culture and defense. Neither seems to be happening. Winning or losing is secondary. The team isn't talented enough to win in this league. It takes more than 3 players out of 12. And these 3 aren't hall of famers. Well, one. They have nothing in common with Boston or Miami's big 3. These are not 3 massively accomplished players joining forces. And considering how little depth we have, winning is going to have to wait.
I wonder if our GM has some buyer's remorse on the Williams acquisition. The reason I bring it up is that if you did have Luc on the roster he could take a major portion of the heat that McLemore is getting for his poor defensive performances. When McLemore is getting torn apart, Luc could step in to save the day. Right now there is nobody to save the day on the defensive end of the floor. The shelf is empty. That seems to me an unintended consequence of the trade.
Opt out in 2 years? His contract ends next season. The only time he can opt out is this offseason.
I really think, one injury to any of our 3 decent players, we're done. Toast. Worst team in the league. Suddenly Jimmer is starting. Or Acy. Or Gray. Or Williams. It gets really awful quick. LIttle man goes down, we are in a dire dire situation. Might as well just put Cuz at the point.
The interest in Miller is to get a veteran guard on the team for mentoring purposes. Not winning now. Dude is 37.
I really think, one injury to any of our 3 decent players, we're done. Toast. Worst team in the league. Suddenly Jimmer is starting. Or Acy. Or Gray. Or Williams. It gets really awful quick. LIttle man goes down, we are in a dire dire situation. Might as well just put Cuz at the point.
The interest in Miller is to get a veteran guard on the team for mentoring purposes. Not winning now. Dude is 37.
