Actually if you have followed what happened to TRob after he left here, that turned out to be a good trade.
This is the point that separates the men from the boys as a GM though. Is Ben going to be a major player one day or not? Its a critical question. If he is, you have to keep him unless you can trade him for a star. If not, you have to make that read faster than anybody else and trade him away to somebody who still mistakenly thinks he will be and who therefore will give you a nice piece for him. Either way, his play is absolutely unacceptable as a starter, or even a rotation guy for a team trying to actually win.
This is the point that separates the men from the boys as a GM though. Is Ben going to be a major player one day or not? Its a critical question. If he is, you have to keep him unless you can trade him for a star. If not, you have to make that read faster than anybody else and trade him away to somebody who still mistakenly thinks he will be and who therefore will give you a nice piece for him. Either way, his play is absolutely unacceptable as a starter, or even a rotation guy for a team trying to actually win.
Good point. Tbh I don't think he will be a major player. I've thought that for a while now, and I realize that he's a rookie. I think he has potential to be a great player I just don't see it happening, mainly because of his low basketball IQ. I say if the right deal comes along that PDA should pull the trigger. Hopefully I'm wrong on this though
Best case, is if Thornton goes on a hot streak and increases his value. It's certainly possible...the guy is a streak player. He has to have enough time on the floor for any chance of that happening. If that means Ben gets less time, I'm for it at this point.
We need to look towards the future and I wouldn't bet much of anything that Ben will be an effective starter by next year. Just really don't see it. I hope he is though
We need to look towards the future and I wouldn't bet much of anything that Ben will be an effective starter by next year. Just really don't see it. I hope he is though
The word from Houston was when TRob was given the starting 4 for a few games, he was wild and to be honest,some said he wasn't intelligent enough to learn the plays. It appears he has fallen out of favor at Portland. The same guy who said he, not Anthony Davis should be the #1 pick. He wasn't "impressed or buying the hype". he also said in bravado that he "had no competition fro RoY". The word from many was Ben barely made it through HS and some questioned how, he moved around and was connected to Blackstock. I hope Ben turns it around, but fact is you have to be able to handle the ball and create a shot from the 3, Ben we are not in Kansas anymore, this is the NBA.
I posted today because it is not getting better, pure disgust.
I posted today because it is not getting better, pure disgust.
If I had only those two choices, I would say "Yes"... He isn't showing enough value AS A STARTER and if I had to either continue to use him as a starter or give up on him I'd wave good-bye.
You've created a false scenario, though, because it's not about giving up on him. It's about not putting him in a position where he's more likely to fail than succeed. I wish a lot of you Ben-lievers would realize that.
You've created a false scenario, though, because it's not about giving up on him. It's about not putting him in a position where he's more likely to fail than succeed. I wish a lot of you Ben-lievers would realize that.
Well, if you're going to word it like that let me add a stipulation.
Yes means we trade him right this second. No means he has to start here for the next 5 years.
Then yes, I would rather trade him now than commit to 30 minutes a night for the next 5 years from him. But this is all hypothetical. We have the option to wait, which is what I would do if I didn't get any trade offers I liked.
Yes means we trade him right this second. No means he has to start here for the next 5 years.
Then yes, I would rather trade him now than commit to 30 minutes a night for the next 5 years from him. But this is all hypothetical. We have the option to wait, which is what I would do if I didn't get any trade offers I liked.
That's not how it works. I would have been willing to give up on him THE DAY WE DRAFTED HIM if somebody offered an All Star for him. On the other hand if somebody offered me ghost of Steve Nash for him, Ben would be playing out his rookie contract for me instead.
But I've never been particularly concerned with the Ray Allen nonsense. The very first summer league game where I got a look at his handle told me all I needed to know about those kinds of claims. So he's a guy with some value, but its uncertain. Unfortunately the longer it goes the more uncertain its getting. The very LAST thing you want is the TRob scenario where by the time you decide to move a guy, he's already PROVEN tot he rest of the league he may be washing out. And so as I am looking around trying to complete this team is Ben a piece that could be on the table? Absolutely. But then again he was for me from Day 1.
But whether he's on the ROSTER or not, where he absolutely does have to be replaced is in that lineup. Its unfair to the rest of the team.
Keep playing McLemore. Before you disagree, count to three and remember in vivid detail how it was when Thornton was starting. Now ask yourself: What the ceiling is for McLemore? For Thornton? Now you should feel at peace, knowing that McLemore should be the starter.
The only reason to not start McLemore is if Malone thinks it would be better for his confidence coming off the bench rather than starting.
The only reason to not start McLemore is if Malone thinks it would be better for his confidence coming off the bench rather than starting.
Some fans need to stop reaching. Ben McLemore is not the primary reason the Kings lost tonight or have been losing. One player is never the problem. Unfortunately, some fans simply have an agenda against the players they don't like and a pro-agenda towards the ones they do.
Is McLemore ready for the minutes he's getting? No. Like most rookies, his defense isn't up to par and he's struggling with his shot. Does anybody remember what Gerald Wallace (he only played 1 college season too) was like his first couple seasons? How about Peja Stojakovic, who played a couple pro seasons in Europe before coming over? As great a shooter as Peja was, he was a sub 40% shooter his rookie year. These fans bashing McClemore are expecting far too much. Like Wallace and Stojakovic, McClemore will end up being a solid player.
Let's not forget that the only reason Ben is starting and playing so much is because a certain #23 has been equally as dreadful. Like Peja and Wallace, McLemore should have been able to learn in a reserve role. But since this team is so short on talent and because the projected starter at the SG position has been so bad, Ben's been exposed for what he is ... A clueless rookie.
For fans that were around when Peja struggled so mightily his rookie season, were you wanting to give up on him then too? I hate to break this to the naysayers, but most rookies struggle on defense and many of them, even the good shooters, struggle with their shots. The one thing McLemore does really well right now, move without the ball, is negated by the fact that his teammates don't look to pass the ball all that much.
In short, I agree that McLemore shouldn't be starting. However, those writing him off as a wasted draft pick are far too shortsighted and suffer from instant gratification syndrome. As already stated, look toward Gerald Wallace and Peja Stojakovic as examples of former Kings wing players, who were of similar age when they came into the league, that struggled mightily their first few seasons. Give the kid some time.
Is McLemore ready for the minutes he's getting? No. Like most rookies, his defense isn't up to par and he's struggling with his shot. Does anybody remember what Gerald Wallace (he only played 1 college season too) was like his first couple seasons? How about Peja Stojakovic, who played a couple pro seasons in Europe before coming over? As great a shooter as Peja was, he was a sub 40% shooter his rookie year. These fans bashing McClemore are expecting far too much. Like Wallace and Stojakovic, McClemore will end up being a solid player.
Let's not forget that the only reason Ben is starting and playing so much is because a certain #23 has been equally as dreadful. Like Peja and Wallace, McLemore should have been able to learn in a reserve role. But since this team is so short on talent and because the projected starter at the SG position has been so bad, Ben's been exposed for what he is ... A clueless rookie.
For fans that were around when Peja struggled so mightily his rookie season, were you wanting to give up on him then too? I hate to break this to the naysayers, but most rookies struggle on defense and many of them, even the good shooters, struggle with their shots. The one thing McLemore does really well right now, move without the ball, is negated by the fact that his teammates don't look to pass the ball all that much.
In short, I agree that McLemore shouldn't be starting. However, those writing him off as a wasted draft pick are far too shortsighted and suffer from instant gratification syndrome. As already stated, look toward Gerald Wallace and Peja Stojakovic as examples of former Kings wing players, who were of similar age when they came into the league, that struggled mightily their first few seasons. Give the kid some time.
I think its fair to call out McLemore, but at the same time you had to expect this. When we start the season our team is Cousins and everyone else, McLemore came in with no pressure and had good spurts off the bench. Then he was inserted into the starting lineup when it was clear this roster would be totally different in the longrun and McLemore was pretty much given the baptism by fire treatment, with no expectations other than "get experience kid", he showed flashes of good but was mostly mediocre.
Then the Williams and Gay trades happen and its becoming clear that we have a legit three headed monster in Cousins, Gay, Thomas. Mclemore is basically the 5th option in the starting lineup which makes his shooting erratic to say the least, and yes defensively he is very raw, as far as an understanding of the game goes. As bad a one on one defender that Jimmer is, he clearly shows an understanding of how to defend as a team and can recognize and implement the scouting reports against guys he is playing against(knowing the oppositions tendencies and how to affect that is half the battle on most nights).
So now you are kind of in a dilemma as a franchise. You have 3 guys (Cousins, Gay, Thomas) that are ready or just about ready to "win now". If you think that trio is good enough to be a playoff contender surrounded by the right guys, then it would be beneficial to trade McLemore for vets ready to contribute right away. The only thing is that at 9-20 we wouldn't make the playoffs barring something crazy. That means we get a lottery pick in a deep draft, even then that pick will still need 2-4 seasons for us to see what we really have( for instance Cousins in his 4th season seems to have "put it all together"). With Cousins as your centerpiece and entering his big money years next season, imo we don't have time to hope McLemore develop and the potential high draft pick to develop.
You can blame McLemore all you want, but really he is a victim of the crazy season we have had personnel wise, again going from rookie with no pressure coming off bench, to rook starting just for the sake of gaining experience, to all of a sudden starting and playing with a lineup thats ready and wants to win now. Our fanchise is in a very weird spot because its obvious we want to win now, and when Landry comes back he will be a boost as well. We don't really have time for long development times for young players if we truly think Cousins, Gay, Thomas is a viable core.
So do you try and package McLemore, Thornton and maybe Williams(has not looked the same since Gay trade), to get some vets that can contribute right away. Basically we need a 2 guard that can defend and hit the open 3 and a backup PG. Is JT good enough to start? He fits what we need at that position(sans shot blocking). What do you guys think a package of McLemore, Williams and maybe one of Jimmer, Thornton or JT can get us?
IT/?/Ray
?/Thornton
Gay/Outlaw
JT/Landry/Acy
Cuz/Gray/Acy
Then the Williams and Gay trades happen and its becoming clear that we have a legit three headed monster in Cousins, Gay, Thomas. Mclemore is basically the 5th option in the starting lineup which makes his shooting erratic to say the least, and yes defensively he is very raw, as far as an understanding of the game goes. As bad a one on one defender that Jimmer is, he clearly shows an understanding of how to defend as a team and can recognize and implement the scouting reports against guys he is playing against(knowing the oppositions tendencies and how to affect that is half the battle on most nights).
So now you are kind of in a dilemma as a franchise. You have 3 guys (Cousins, Gay, Thomas) that are ready or just about ready to "win now". If you think that trio is good enough to be a playoff contender surrounded by the right guys, then it would be beneficial to trade McLemore for vets ready to contribute right away. The only thing is that at 9-20 we wouldn't make the playoffs barring something crazy. That means we get a lottery pick in a deep draft, even then that pick will still need 2-4 seasons for us to see what we really have( for instance Cousins in his 4th season seems to have "put it all together"). With Cousins as your centerpiece and entering his big money years next season, imo we don't have time to hope McLemore develop and the potential high draft pick to develop.
You can blame McLemore all you want, but really he is a victim of the crazy season we have had personnel wise, again going from rookie with no pressure coming off bench, to rook starting just for the sake of gaining experience, to all of a sudden starting and playing with a lineup thats ready and wants to win now. Our fanchise is in a very weird spot because its obvious we want to win now, and when Landry comes back he will be a boost as well. We don't really have time for long development times for young players if we truly think Cousins, Gay, Thomas is a viable core.
So do you try and package McLemore, Thornton and maybe Williams(has not looked the same since Gay trade), to get some vets that can contribute right away. Basically we need a 2 guard that can defend and hit the open 3 and a backup PG. Is JT good enough to start? He fits what we need at that position(sans shot blocking). What do you guys think a package of McLemore, Williams and maybe one of Jimmer, Thornton or JT can get us?
IT/?/Ray
?/Thornton
Gay/Outlaw
JT/Landry/Acy
Cuz/Gray/Acy
There's also the issue that we "gave up" Evans because the FO was confident in McLemore. That's what really matters to me. You let go of a guy who would be the best SG on our team now because you drafted McLemore (who you tout as a future star) and want him to develop. There's an expectation that he's supposed to come in and have an immediate impact. Is it fair to Ben? Maybe not, but it also isn't fair to fans for the FO to now go back and say "oh actually we need you to be patient teehee. Oopsies we left the team without a legitimate SG!"
Most people aren't calling him a wasted draft pick, except in reference to the question dude12 asked that only allowed a Yes or No response.
The real point is that almost everyone agrees Ben shouldn't be starting. It's not good for the team and it's not good for him. If you look back at Peja's minutes (I just did) in his rookie year with the Kings, you'll see he averaged 21.4 mpg. He shared minutes with another guy who might sound familiar, Corliss Williamson. He started ONE GAME his rookie year.
Gerald Wallace averaged 8.0, 12.1 and 9.1 mpg in his first three years and only started a total of 9 games during that time.
I think the Ben-lievers need to understand that most of us want him to succeed. We just don't want to see him continue to start and fail.
The real point is that almost everyone agrees Ben shouldn't be starting. It's not good for the team and it's not good for him. If you look back at Peja's minutes (I just did) in his rookie year with the Kings, you'll see he averaged 21.4 mpg. He shared minutes with another guy who might sound familiar, Corliss Williamson. He started ONE GAME his rookie year.
Gerald Wallace averaged 8.0, 12.1 and 9.1 mpg in his first three years and only started a total of 9 games during that time.
I think the Ben-lievers need to understand that most of us want him to succeed. We just don't want to see him continue to start and fail.