I'm really confunsed about what we're trying to accomplish in these last few games of the season. Shouldn't we be playing the kids to see what they can do to help evaluate where we go from here in the off season? And, in so doing, probably drop to #11 or #12 in the draft instead of our current #13. Instead we're still playing the players we would if we still had a chance at the playoffs. So the only logical conclusion is that Reggie feels the need to improve on Musselman's record from last year to make himself look good? I thought about the need to establish a winning tradition, especially on your home court...the generate ticket sales angle etc. but rejected these. I just am at a loss to figure out what our goals are that we're playing for right now. Am I alone in this observation?
What Are We Doing?
- Thread starter Rowdyone
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As fans I think its easy to lose sight of the fact that we're on the outside looking in. I'm not Theus, and I have no idea what he's thinking when it comes to playing time for the "kids." But maybe Theus wants them to earn playing time as opposed to just giving it to them because we won't make the playoffs? Maybe he see's something in every practice that we don't see that suggests the "kids" aren't ready or deserve to play extended minutes? Spencer gets pretty decent runs at times. Maybe it's because he earned it? Maybe Sheldon and his predecessor's, Daryl Watkins and Justin Williams, didn't? And Douby... IS NOT a PG. He's pure SG. He's proved that time and time again this season. So would you like Kevin Martin's minutes to be cut so Douby can "develope?"
Unless you lose every single game left on the schedule this season, your draft position isn't gonna change much. So why bother tanking? Better yet, why tank ever? I for one am glad Theus wants to win these games.
Unless you lose every single game left on the schedule this season, your draft position isn't gonna change much. So why bother tanking? Better yet, why tank ever? I for one am glad Theus wants to win these games.
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Reggie, as coach, is trying to stay competitive. And that means playing whoever is going to get the job done at that specific time...if a player is showing that he can play alot of different styles, then he'll play more...if he doesnt, he wont play except for when he is needed. I cant wait until next season, to see the maturation of our younger players even more...I think Spencer will play alot more next year, for sure...I think Quincy will be traded during this offseason, which is fine with me, and I think that the Kings, depending on position, will draft a PG that is ONLY a PG to back up Beno...like a Collison, which would be a great pick, IMO.I'm glad Reggie is doing his thing, and doing it well...he's restored at least a moderate sense of hope for the future.
I don't know it's a pride issue for Reggie, but I do think that his competitive fire has something to do with it; actually, Hawes has seen a solid progression of minutes, and that I like. I think he's really shown some things, including some really surprising shotblocking ability, the past couple of games. As for Douby...eh. I hate to say that he's "discarded" from our team, but he's a SG through and through, and we don't need any more scorers; there's a reason perennial benchwarmer Anthony Johnson, a pass-first point guard and pass-last point guard, was able to garner minutes, which actually paid off dividends to the tune of 13 assists. That being said, I agree with Circa that I think Douby's going to be gone come summer as well try to draft a PG--maybe the UCLA guys Westbrook or a more purer PG in Darren Collison, and hopefully if we strike it rich Derrick Rose, although that's really, really stretching. Anywhoo, look for a real PG come this offseason, whether in draft, trade or free agency.
I tend to think Beno will get first look as the PG going into the future. Our biggest need is STILL at the 4 - and if Artest is moved, we're still a franchise player away from a climb back up the ladder.
Having said that, I think we're still very much a work in progress and trying to picture the end result right now is like trying to figure out what a jigsaw puzzle will look like by looking only at the bottom of the box.
Having said that, I think we're still very much a work in progress and trying to picture the end result right now is like trying to figure out what a jigsaw puzzle will look like by looking only at the bottom of the box.
I definitely agree with you on the Beno thing, but I also think that we need a stud to come off the bench, ala Bobby Jackson...who would be available to step in in the event of an injury, too. As its stands, I wouldnt want any of the upcoming free agents to be the backup, and this summer's draft has a good handful of very good PG's that could fit that role. Now...this isnt to say that Petrie wont pull the plug on a trade that might bring someone in to fill this need, too.
An NBA coach was interviewed on ESPN and gave great accolades to the job Theus is doing this year and reminded the listeners that given the huge amount of time that last years starters were out injured at the beginning of the year. SAR was a starter but out for the year from day 2, not for argument now but a reference from last years "team" to this year at the start of the season. Bibby missed 30 games, Kevin 17, RonRon 7 then some more later.
This gave the bench a golden chance and we saw how much better Salmons, Beno and Hawes are than what we knew before. Then Bibby gets traded 15 or 16 games after he is back.
This is all MAJOR turmoil, MAJOR disruptions to getting a TEAM together. Team building takes a couple of years, not a couple of weeks as some seem to sqawk about.
The Kings have beaten EVERY division leader this year including the Lakers and the Pistons on the road. Doubt there are darn few teams overall who can claim that.
So what is Coach doing?? I agree with Circa_1985_Fan: "I'm glad Reggie is doing his thing, and doing it well...he's restored at least a moderate sense of hope for the future". He is doing the right thing now. If in practice the "kids" deserve more time, they will get it. But that is really only Shelden, Douby and Hawes for now. And we are seeing more of them now. Maybe not as much as some fans think, but those fans are not an NBA coach nor the Kings coach. So cut him some slack. He has earned it.
This gave the bench a golden chance and we saw how much better Salmons, Beno and Hawes are than what we knew before. Then Bibby gets traded 15 or 16 games after he is back.
This is all MAJOR turmoil, MAJOR disruptions to getting a TEAM together. Team building takes a couple of years, not a couple of weeks as some seem to sqawk about.
The Kings have beaten EVERY division leader this year including the Lakers and the Pistons on the road. Doubt there are darn few teams overall who can claim that.
So what is Coach doing?? I agree with Circa_1985_Fan: "I'm glad Reggie is doing his thing, and doing it well...he's restored at least a moderate sense of hope for the future". He is doing the right thing now. If in practice the "kids" deserve more time, they will get it. But that is really only Shelden, Douby and Hawes for now. And we are seeing more of them now. Maybe not as much as some fans think, but those fans are not an NBA coach nor the Kings coach. So cut him some slack. He has earned it.
Mikki Moore has earned his playing time this year. And he's signed for another two years so it makes sense to play him. Like it or not, he is a part of this team's future. (that's a Petrie decision) Spencer Hawes is injured right now anyway, but he's been getting his fair share lately otherwise. And Alexander Johnson is really our only option at PG with Udrih injured. Wishful thinking isn't going to turn Douby into a PG. The only "kid" not getting playing time is Shelden Williams but I'm beyond having a rational explanation at this point for why the Kings refuse to play defense role-players at the PF position. Justin Williams couldn't get any burn either for the better part of two years. It's totally mystifying and it transcends Reggie Theus because he certainly wasn't the start of it.
It's frustrating as a fan to see the team play well enough to win games against the best teams and then disappear completely against teams they should beat easily. Especially when that puts us in between making the playoffs and relying on the draft to turn things around. But there's nothing we can do about it but congratulate them when they play well and hope that consistency comes with time.
It's frustrating as a fan to see the team play well enough to win games against the best teams and then disappear completely against teams they should beat easily. Especially when that puts us in between making the playoffs and relying on the draft to turn things around. But there's nothing we can do about it but congratulate them when they play well and hope that consistency comes with time.
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We are being idiots.
Enough Reggie apologism -- it gets sick after a while. If the man ever sets his ego aside, I think he can coach at this level. That's a big if.
But here is the obvious query -- if you don't play the kids when you are a losing team out of playoff contention, and you don't play the kids when you are a winning team IN playoff contention, when exactly Do you play the kids? Answer = never. If you are an idiot.
The kids are the future. 33 yr old Mikki Moore, 33 yr old Anthony Johnson, 32 yr old Brad Miller, and wquit epossibly (and hopefully) soon to be gone Ron Artest are not. With this season already over as far as significant goals, the future is all that matters.
Enough Reggie apologism -- it gets sick after a while. If the man ever sets his ego aside, I think he can coach at this level. That's a big if.
But here is the obvious query -- if you don't play the kids when you are a losing team out of playoff contention, and you don't play the kids when you are a winning team IN playoff contention, when exactly Do you play the kids? Answer = never. If you are an idiot.
The kids are the future. 33 yr old Mikki Moore, 33 yr old Anthony Johnson, 32 yr old Brad Miller, and wquit epossibly (and hopefully) soon to be gone Ron Artest are not. With this season already over as far as significant goals, the future is all that matters.
First off, we are in the #12 spot. The eastern team with the worst record who makes the playoff will draft after us.
So we would have to drop below the hawks/nets to gain a spot (they are 3 back in the loss column) and the bulls are 4 back in the loss column.
Now we can move to #13 if we pass portland who were are 3 games back in the loss column.
So basically we most likely will be #12 unless we win or lose 4 games more down the stretch than the hawks/nets and blazers.
So we would have to drop below the hawks/nets to gain a spot (they are 3 back in the loss column) and the bulls are 4 back in the loss column.
Now we can move to #13 if we pass portland who were are 3 games back in the loss column.
So basically we most likely will be #12 unless we win or lose 4 games more down the stretch than the hawks/nets and blazers.
Some did play a lot including Garcia - if he's still a kid at 26. 19-year-old rookie Hawes missed all of training camp with injury, so he had to be eased into the rotation with more minutes as the season went along. Whenever Douby got minutes early on at PG (usually in place of Orien Greene!) he often looked like a deer caught in bright headlights. When Bibby went down "new kid" 25-year-old (4 yr NBA vet) Beno Udrih was immediately inserted as starting PG and now the job is his. Is Salmons a kid, K-Mart, nope. Who's left? Justin Williams? He's no longer on an NBA roster since Houston let him go. Sheldon Williams? He just joined the Kings so he could not have been playing major minutes from the start. Maybe I'm missing something really important here but I don't think so.
Thanks, I get tired of repeating all that stuff. And, while it's true that we're only about 4 games from changing draft position, we have to bear in mind that we only have 15 games left in the season, so going +4 or -4 vs. the appropriate team is very unlikely.
I think that Reggie should play the kids more, and wish that we had more of them left to play. To some extent, I have to blame him for the fact that we don't.
I think that Reggie should play the kids more, and wish that we had more of them left to play. To some extent, I have to blame him for the fact that we don't.
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Play what kids more? Although a number of people around here had been talking about rebuilding, it wasn't until the trade of Mike Bibby that it become obvious TPTB were, in fact, deciding to go down that path.
Whether they should have done so earlier is a moot point.
They're there now but there's not going to be an overnight resolution to the myriad problems facing the team.
I don't see how you can blame Theus for "the fact that we don't" ... whatever it is we don't...
Whether they should have done so earlier is a moot point.
They're there now but there's not going to be an overnight resolution to the myriad problems facing the team.
I don't see how you can blame Theus for "the fact that we don't" ... whatever it is we don't...
It's still not clear now. We had to dump salary to cover Kevin's extension. Maybe that is the only path we've yet committed ourselves to.
If we're developing our younger players, they will gain in value, they will display that value, and they will be treated like it. If the coach gives them the Gerald Wallace treatment, so will the FO.
If by "moot," you mean that the past can't be undone, and the damage is mostly irreversible, I would have to agree, just as I'd agree that 99.99% of all regrettable acts are now moot. But that doesn't mean that I automatically forgive and forget all of them, or even that I should.
If we're developing our younger players, they will gain in value, they will display that value, and they will be treated like it. If the coach gives them the Gerald Wallace treatment, so will the FO.
If by "moot," you mean that the past can't be undone, and the damage is mostly irreversible, I would have to agree, just as I'd agree that 99.99% of all regrettable acts are now moot. But that doesn't mean that I automatically forgive and forget all of them, or even that I should.
fnordius - We shall, I guess, simply have to agree to disagree about certain things. You can't just throw the second or third string onto the court and expect instant miracles.
The idea that it should be ALL about youth development would be fine, if this wasn't a business. It is a business, however, and some attention has to be paid to the dollars and cents. Fans will come support the team in decent numbers if the guys on the court play good fundamental basketball and show heart and hustle. But you need to blend the old and the new to keep people interested.
I'm not disagreeing with you about the development of the younger players, but I am beyond tired of the silly and totally irrelevant "Gerald Wallace" comparisons. Wallace was third on the depth chart behind Peja and Hedo, IIRC. He was NEVER going to be seeing major minutes at the SF position. And his work ethic was NOT exemplary when he wore the uniform of the Sacramento Kings. He grew up a bit when he went to Charlotte; part of it could easily have been the rude awakening that came his way when he was left exposed to the expansion draft. Whether or not he would ever have achieved anything close to what he has in Charlotte is something no one will ever really know.
As far as "that doesn't mean that I automatically forgive and forget all of them, or even that I should" goes, I'm actually somewhat surprised to remind you of this but ...
It's only a game.
The idea that it should be ALL about youth development would be fine, if this wasn't a business. It is a business, however, and some attention has to be paid to the dollars and cents. Fans will come support the team in decent numbers if the guys on the court play good fundamental basketball and show heart and hustle. But you need to blend the old and the new to keep people interested.
I'm not disagreeing with you about the development of the younger players, but I am beyond tired of the silly and totally irrelevant "Gerald Wallace" comparisons. Wallace was third on the depth chart behind Peja and Hedo, IIRC. He was NEVER going to be seeing major minutes at the SF position. And his work ethic was NOT exemplary when he wore the uniform of the Sacramento Kings. He grew up a bit when he went to Charlotte; part of it could easily have been the rude awakening that came his way when he was left exposed to the expansion draft. Whether or not he would ever have achieved anything close to what he has in Charlotte is something no one will ever really know.
As far as "that doesn't mean that I automatically forgive and forget all of them, or even that I should" goes, I'm actually somewhat surprised to remind you of this but ...
It's only a game.
I agree with the Beno statement, but I believe if a certain PG is available in this draft *ahem* Augistin, then we should pick him. I would liek a backup plan if Beno doesn't work out. Although I have to say, in his first year of getting major minutes Beno has proven he can run the point, play decent man on man defense, and shoot pretty well. The only downfall so far is he is more of a combo guard than a PG and turns the ball over too much. I am sure he can improve though.
We need to play some of the vets.. But I agree.. As of today I think our lineup should be Beno, Martin, Garcia, Williams, Hawes. See if they can put something together. At least four of those players will be part of our future. Three will probably be starting in a couple years, and a major part of our re-build..
Built for Mediocrity
What are we doing? Well, Reggie is doing whatever it takes to get to .500. He's engaging in a half-assed compromise on playing the kids. He plays them just enough to appease some fans, and possibly management, and then goes for the win by playing whomever. What is Petrie doing? He's building this team to be around .500 for years into the future. In an odd sort of way, they are on the same page.
What are we doing? Well, Reggie is doing whatever it takes to get to .500. He's engaging in a half-assed compromise on playing the kids. He plays them just enough to appease some fans, and possibly management, and then goes for the win by playing whomever. What is Petrie doing? He's building this team to be around .500 for years into the future. In an odd sort of way, they are on the same page.
It's hard for me to envision the Kings as anything other than mediocre with Beno as the starting point guard. All I have to do is think about the competition at point guard - Paul, Parker, etc., etc. Our biggest need is the franchise player that you mentioned. We can always get a somewhat-better-than-Miki power forward through FA in a couple of years, but franchise players you get through the draft. And we all know we're not going to get a high draft pick anytime soon...
No no no... Beno is certainly NOT a pure or true PG. He is a scoring PG and is Bibby Jr. imo, and dishes fewer assists. A true PG gets his teammates involved FIRST and gets his offense SECOND. Now thats not to say Beno isn't capable of being that type of PG. He shows flashes every now and then, but with an assist/TO ratio a little less than 2:1 per game (Anthony Johnson's is almost 4:1) and only avg. 4.5 assists per game (with Brad and Artest right behind him with 3.6), I can't in good conscience call Beno a true PG at this point in his career.
If Beno was, in fact, a true PG like you say, then I don't think the Kings would've played as inconsistent as they have this season. With a true PG distributing the ball (ie AJ for one game at least) we would see alot less of the one-on-one BS we see night in and night out. Guys would move without the ball and cut to the basket instead of standing there waiting for their turn to touch the ball so they can create their own shot. And as a result we wouldn't turn the ball over nearly as much as we have all season, turnovers that often turn into points for the other team.
Beno has the potential to be a true PG, but he needs to stop listenning to Theus when he tells him he wants Beno to be a scoring PG. His ability to score should be nothing more than a tool to get open, easy looks for his teammates. Kevin makes great cuts to the basket every night but how many alley-oops can you think of this season that were from Beno to Kmart? How many did we see in one night from Anthony freakin' Johnson of all people? Enough said.
If Beno was, in fact, a true PG like you say, then I don't think the Kings would've played as inconsistent as they have this season. With a true PG distributing the ball (ie AJ for one game at least) we would see alot less of the one-on-one BS we see night in and night out. Guys would move without the ball and cut to the basket instead of standing there waiting for their turn to touch the ball so they can create their own shot. And as a result we wouldn't turn the ball over nearly as much as we have all season, turnovers that often turn into points for the other team.
Beno has the potential to be a true PG, but he needs to stop listenning to Theus when he tells him he wants Beno to be a scoring PG. His ability to score should be nothing more than a tool to get open, easy looks for his teammates. Kevin makes great cuts to the basket every night but how many alley-oops can you think of this season that were from Beno to Kmart? How many did we see in one night from Anthony freakin' Johnson of all people? Enough said.
It's obvious that Beno will be extended. But only for backup money. AJ is giving him a run for the same money. The draft and Artest opting to stay/not stay will clear up the issue. The fossils on the team are just that. On the other hand, I don't believe that the pg issue can be resolved with any solution that doesn't involve a top 5 pick in the draft. OJ Mayo and other recognizable names will be the kings main targets. Extending Artest is an opt.
I'm thinking Artest opts out, we sign and trade for a knicks 1st round pick and a scrub or two.
Then we are to draft Mayo or some extremely random bigmen in the first round, and then we go for demarcus nelson and or paulus in the second round.
The team has a Duke feel to it.
Mayo/Demarcus/Paulus/Beno
Martin/Mayo/Garcia/Demarcus/
Salmons/Q Richardson/Garcia
Moore/Shelden Williams/Hawes
Miller/Hawes/Moore/Shelden
Martin Averages 22ppg
Mayo Averages 13ppg and 7ast per game
Salmons bulks up and becomes Ron Artest
Mikki Moore learns how to play like Marcus Camby
Brad Miller overachieves
We miss the playoffs by one game/ or make it by one
I'm thinking Artest opts out, we sign and trade for a knicks 1st round pick and a scrub or two.
Then we are to draft Mayo or some extremely random bigmen in the first round, and then we go for demarcus nelson and or paulus in the second round.
The team has a Duke feel to it.
Mayo/Demarcus/Paulus/Beno
Martin/Mayo/Garcia/Demarcus/
Salmons/Q Richardson/Garcia
Moore/Shelden Williams/Hawes
Miller/Hawes/Moore/Shelden
Martin Averages 22ppg
Mayo Averages 13ppg and 7ast per game
Salmons bulks up and becomes Ron Artest
Mikki Moore learns how to play like Marcus Camby
Brad Miller overachieves
We miss the playoffs by one game/ or make it by one
Its cool. I wouldn't want to trade Ron anyways. I do want to trade Beno for a second round pick and cash if it was possible(which is isn't). I do want to re-sign AJ for decent veterans pay. I'm not hating on Beno, but hasn't he hit the ceiling talent wise? Chances are he wont replicate this season. If the kings play it smart, they will leave the pg spot up in the air.