What about trading our pick? (spun off from draft position thread)

[Rowdyone]

Not having time to read the preceding 22 pages I hope this idea hasn't been discussed already but if so my apologies.

What does everyone think about trading our #1, if it indeed happens, to someone with multiple first round picks such as the TWolves? With only six returning players next year and no consensus on the desireability of the top pick it seems to me that trading down for, say, Minnesota's three picks (if they could be cajoled into doing such a thing) would allow us to fill our roster with first rounders (who also work for less money) instead of filling our roster with FA's who would want more money? Your thoughts?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Not having time to read the preceding 22 pages I hope this idea hasn't been discussed already but if so my apologies.

What does everyone think about trading our #1, if it indeed happens, to someone with multiple first round picks such as the TWolves? With only six returning players next year and no consensus on the desireability of the top pick it seems to me that trading down for, say, Minnesota's three picks (if they could be cajoled into doing such a thing) would allow us to fill our roster with first rounders (who also work for less money) instead of filling our roster with FA's who would want more money? Your thoughts?

We have 8 returning players: Beno, Kevin, Cisco, Thompson, Hawes, Nocioni, Greene, KT (and yes, he does count). With two first-round picks and a high second, we would bring ourselves to 11, and I'm beginning to think we'll at least make a run at McCants. Since he's an RFA, if we're willing to offer 3.6M we can match any offer sheet above that.

We're committed to $45M for our 8 returning players. The salary cap is at $58M this year and is expected to drop, so let's say it's at $56M next year. That leaves us $11M to play with, and our two first-round picks should eat up around $5M of that. So assuming we keep our (potential) #1 overall, we don't really have the cash to throw around at free agents anyway.

Now if we were to get all three of Minny's first rounders (presumably around #6, #18, and #27) for our high pick, we'd have four first-rounders at about $6M, so we'd get two more players for only about $1M more. I see where you're coming from there. But it's looking to be a weak draft, and I can't condone giving up a chance at a franchise player (and it may be a low chance!) to stockpile a bunch of cheap guys that are likely roleplayers.

 

[Section 101]

We have 8 returning players: Beno, Kevin, Cisco, Thompson, Hawes, Nocioni, Greene, KT (and yes, he does count). With two first-round picks and a high second, we would bring ourselves to 11, and I'm beginning to think we'll at least make a run at McCants. Since he's an RFA, if we're willing to offer 3.6M we can match any offer sheet above that.

We're committed to $45M for our 8 returning players. The salary cap is at $58M this year and is expected to drop, so let's say it's at $56M next year. That leaves us $11M to play with, and our two first-round picks should eat up around $5M of that. So assuming we keep our (potential) #1 overall, we don't really have the cash to throw around at free agents anyway.

Now if we were to get all three of Minny's first rounders (presumably around #6, #18, and #27) for our high pick, we'd have four first-rounders at about $6M, so we'd get two more players for only about $1M more. I see where you're coming from there. But it's looking to be a weak draft, and I can't condone giving up a chance at a franchise player (and it may be a low chance!) to stockpile a bunch of cheap guys that are likely roleplayers.

Don't forget all those expirings still count towards the cap till they are signed by someone else or we renouce their rights. If we renouce McCants rights we lose his restricted status.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Don't forget all those expirings still count towards the cap till they are signed by someone else or we renouce their rights. If we renouce McCants rights we lose his restricted status.

Yeah, that's right. The point there being that we really don't have any cap room so we don't have to worry about overspending on free agents, which was one of the motivations for trading down in the post I was responding to.

 

[Section 101]

Yeah, that's right. The point there being that we really don't have any cap room so we don't have to worry about overspending on free agents, which was one of the motivations for trading down in the post I was responding to.

Yep. Basically if there is a player out there worth signing its best to use the dreaded MLE.

And since its required to have a minimun of 13 players something has to be done.

 

[HighTopKicks]

Yep. Basically if there is a player out there worth signing its best to use the dreaded MLE.

And since its required to have a minimun of 13 players something has to be done.

IF I'm not mistaken, since we are $11m under the cap we lose the MLE, Bi-Annual,& trade exemptions.

Even if we are over the cap we are allowed to sign players to the League Minimum to fill out the roster.

And, the draft choices don't count against the cap until they are picked. So, a trade could be made before the draft using the cap space. 1st round draft choices can be signed even if they put the team over the cap. Although, it's uncertain whether the Maloof's will be willing to spend over the cap.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

IF I'm not mistaken, since we are $11m under the cap we lose the MLE, Bi-Annual,& trade exemptions.

Even if we are over the cap we are allowed to sign players to the League Minimum to fill out the roster.

And, the draft choices don't count against the cap until they are picked. So, a trade could be made before the draft using the cap space. 1st round draft choices can be signed even if they put the team over the cap. Although, it's uncertain whether the Maloof's will be willing to spend over the cap.

This is true about the draft choices - we could certainly use our ~$11M cap space for trades pre-draft. But the draft occurs before the free agency period, so once the draft happens our draft picks (~$5M as it stands) will count and we will be close enough to the cap that I believe we will be getting the MLE/etc. back.

 

[HighTopKicks]

We have 8 returning players: Beno, Kevin, Cisco, Thompson, Hawes, Nocioni, Greene, KT (and yes, he does count). With two first-round picks and a high second, we would bring ourselves to 11, and I'm beginning to think we'll at least make a run at McCants. Since he's an RFA, if we're willing to offer 3.6M we can match any offer sheet above that.

We're committed to $45M for our 8 returning players. The salary cap is at $58M this year and is expected to drop, so let's say it's at $56M next year. That leaves us $11M to play with, and our two first-round picks should eat up around $5M of that. So assuming we keep our (potential) #1 overall, we don't really have the cash to throw around at free agents anyway.

Now if we were to get all three of Minny's first rounders (presumably around #6, #18, and #27) for our high pick, we'd have four first-rounders at about $6M, so we'd get two more players for only about $1M more. I see where you're coming from there. But it's looking to be a weak draft, and I can't condone giving up a chance at a franchise player (and it may be a low chance!) to stockpile a bunch of cheap guys that are likely roleplayers.

First, I believe next years cap was announced at $57.3M.

Second, If Rubio doesnt enter and we don't get the #1 pick, there is just as much of a chance finding a franchise player at 6-8 as 2-5. At least, in this draft.
But, I don't think Minni is going to give up 3 first round picks but the first 2 might be possible. Or, our 1st & 2nd rounders for their first 2 first rounders.

You are correct about there not being enough money after the draft to pick up any FA's. But, since draft picks don't count against the cap until after they are drafted, a predraft trade is possible. And, it would have no affect on the draft pick signings, since 1st rounders can be signed even if doing so puts the team over the cap.

 

[HighTopKicks]

This is true about the draft choices - we could certainly use our ~$11M cap space for trades pre-draft. But the draft occurs before the free agency period, so once the draft happens our draft picks (~$5M as it stands) will count and we will be close enough to the cap that I believe we will be getting the MLE/etc. back.

Yes the intricacies of the CBA make this kind of debate difficult. If the Kings plan to retain McCants as you suggested, then his cap hold would undoubtedly reduce our prefree agent cap space to less then $5m. So, you would be correct. On the other hand, if we didn't make any predraft trades, recinded all rights to our expiring including McCants, and moved down in the draft there's a good chance we'd have more than enough cap space to lose the exemptions.

The question as I see it is, "Will GP want the cap space for a FA, or would he be better off making a predraft trade and pick up extra draft picks?". One issue we haven't addressed is, could GP use the predraft cap space to trade for the Wizards #1 pick. Say Donte' for one of their bad contracts & their #1. Washington gets a young guy with potential with a cheap contract, for a bad contract and maybe $7M in luxury tax savings.

 

[Vlade4GM]

If they're going to kill the 2010 cap space, they better make it worthwhile.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

First, I believe next years cap was announced at $57.3M.

Thanks. I did a quick Google and didn't find it, so I guessed it hadn't been set yet.

Second, If Rubio doesnt enter and we don't get the #1 pick, there is just as much of a chance finding a franchise player at 6-8 as 2-5. At least, in this draft.
But, I don't think Minni is going to give up 3 first round picks but the first 2 might be possible. Or, our 1st & 2nd rounders for their first 2 first rounders.

I wouldn't be willing to trade away a shot at either Griffin or Rubio, but I'd be willing to trade down a bit otherwise. I gather that you would agree. Another poster suggested Minny might give all three picks, but even two would be fine with me, if Petrie had an idea who he wanted to nab with them.

 

[kennadog]

Second, If Rubio doesnt enter and we don't get the #1 pick, there is just as much of a chance finding a franchise player at 6-8 as 2-5. At least, in this draft.

In this draft, I didn't get the impression there were any sure franchise players even #1? Maybe a someday All-Star, but isn't a franchise player more than that?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

One issue we haven't addressed is, could GP use the predraft cap space to trade for the Wizards #1 pick. Say Donte' for one of their bad contracts & their #1. Washington gets a young guy with potential with a cheap contract, for a bad contract and maybe $7M in luxury tax savings.

This has been discussed, at least a bit. For instance, we could send the Wizards Greene for Haywood and their first-rounder, and they would save about $8M in salary (net $5M for Haywood and ~$3M for their pick) and another $8M in luxury tax. The question is, would they rather have Donte and $16M, or the player they could get with their pick (presumably top-5)?

 

[VF21]

Note: I put this into its own thread for the simple reason I couldn't find the latest update of draft positions...

 

[Kings Faithful]

If a trade like this happened to get Min's 3 picks I would be pretty happy. Although we'd give up a chance at Rubio and Griffin, if Geoff ok'd this trade it would mean he see's potential else where. Honestly, I'm comfortable with Geoff getting 3 chances at possibly picking up player(s) like Martin, Hawes, JT, Hedo, Wallace, and Peja... All picked 10 or later.

 

[Entity]

I think its safe to say that our options are wide open on draft night if we get the 1st pick. We will be in the drivers seat and maybe we can work some majic like portland did a few years back.

 

[Section 101]

IF I'm not mistaken, since we are $11m under the cap we lose the MLE, Bi-Annual,& trade exemptions.

Even if we are over the cap we are allowed to sign players to the League Minimum to fill out the roster.

And, the draft choices don't count against the cap until they are picked. So, a trade could be made before the draft using the cap space. 1st round draft choices can be signed even if they put the team over the cap. Although, it's uncertain whether the Maloof's will be willing to spend over the cap.

The MLE is still sloted even if you are 30 mil under the cap. You have to renouce the MLE to be able to use your cap space.

Any trades made during the playoffs are made for this years cap. So we don't have the cap space until July 1st. Then there's the 2 week waiting period before any deals/signs can happen.

Next years cap will be determined in the 2 weeks after July 1st. They have to go over all the finances to determine what it will be.

 

[HighTopKicks]

In this draft, I didn't get the impression there were any sure franchise players even #1? Maybe a someday All-Star, but isn't a franchise player more than that?

Was Kobe or Jordan a predraft sure thing franchise player? There's always a chance that some of these young talents will develop into something more than they are today. There's always a chance to find that franchise player in every draft. That's why every draft pick is valuable.

 

[Rowdyone]

Was Kobe or Jordan a predraft sure thing franchise player? There's always a chance that some of these young talents will develop into something more than they are today. There's always a chance to find that franchise player in every draft. That's why every draft pick is valuable.

Which brings me back to my original premise; if more picks, at a lesser cost, allow us the opportunity to mine more nuggets (especially now the way none of these kids are putting in 4 years in college that would allow for greater scrutiny) then wouldn't that be the way to go? Especially if we fall to #3 or even #2 if Rubio doesn't come out this year? Anyway, I guess that's why Jeff pulls down the big bucks to make these decisions. And thanks, guys, for the CBA "education".

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Which brings me back to my original premise; if more picks, at a lesser cost, allow us the opportunity to mine more nuggets (especially now the way none of these kids are putting in 4 years in college that would allow for greater scrutiny) then wouldn't that be the way to go? Especially if we fall to #3 or even #2 if Rubio doesn't come out this year? Anyway, I guess that's why Jeff pulls down the big bucks to make these decisions. And thanks, guys, for the CBA "education".

It's not an unreasonable premise, but it's not a sure-fire hit either. I'll try to be more direct in my thoughts, which were kind of scattered the first time:

"More picks at a lesser cost"
More picks, yes, but almost certainly not at a lesser cost. The salary scale for picks drops off kind of steeply at the very top and then flattens out. So if you're only talking about dealing a #3 (#2 without Rubio) and getting 2 (or 3) picks back, you see very little if any cost benefit in total cost. The average cost per pick will be less. But altogether the monetary issue would be a drop in the bucket. You mentioned that more picks would keep us from spending too much in free agency, which would hold down costs. That will only go so far. Despite being "under the cap" we won't have any real money to spend in free agency. After we get through the draft, we'll probably be close enough to the cap to be forced to use the MLE at best. So we're not likely to go out and spend a lot, which means we're not going to be too likely to be able to buy any gems of players. We'd probably fill out the roster with guys at or near the minimum. So really the cost issue is pretty much a wash. Which leaves us with only:

"The opportunity to mine more nuggets"
It's a weak draft, so we think. That doesn't mean that trading down is necessarily the thing to do. We still have to assume that the value of player that you will find is, on average, inversely proportional to their draft position. Trading down without knowing what you're trading down for isn't necessarily a smart move if you're trying to do anything besides save money. That's not to say it can't work under some circumstances. Say we get #3 and Minny gets #6. At #3 Griffin and Rubio are gone, and Petrie has two players A and B he values equally, but he believes that the T'Wolves are very high on A and don't like B. Petrie could select A, and then wait two picks to see if B is still available at Minny's pick. If so, he could offer A to Minny in exchange for B and a later pick (or two if he feels he has the leverage). That's a smart trade, I'll grant. But there are other possibilities that aren't such good moves. For instance, maybe Petrie likes A best at #3 and is pretty sure that A will not fall to a tradeable slot (a team that has multiple picks, and might be willing to deal them and A for player B). In that case, we should just draft A and keep A.

In the end, you're basically saying we should trade down and get more picks because it will be cheaper and there will be more young kids who might hit. I think in principle it's pretty much a wash because the money won't be much different, and while you get more players with a chance to be good, the chance that the player you draft at #3 will be good is better overall, so your overall chance of getting a good player may not change much. On top of that, you have to find a trade partner who is willing to trade. Under some circumstances it will work, but at this point it's more "wait-and-see" than "hey-let's-do-this".

 

[AyeCarly]

I'm not down for a Simmons, Mays, Causwell, Bonner redux.
Give me Derrick Coleman or Gary Payton thanks.

 

[HighTopKicks]

The MLE is still sloted even if you are 30 mil under the cap. You have to renouce the MLE to be able to use your cap space.

Any trades made during the playoffs are made for this years cap. So we don't have the cap space until July 1st. Then there's the 2 week waiting period before any deals/signs can happen.

Next years cap will be determined in the 2 weeks after July 1st. They have to go over all the finances to determine what it will be.

My bad on the cap space date. Some how I confused the fact that trades can be made at seasons end with the fact that players contract end then also. Your explaination of the July Moratorium is correct. But, it's scheduled to end July 7th.

As far as the MLE, Coon' CBA QA has this to say:

"If a team isn't over the cap, then the concept of an exception is moot. Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away. The effect is that a team may have either exceptions or cap room, but they can't have both."

But, again you are correct. Since the draft occurs before the cap space is determined on July 1st, our cap space would be below the MLE + Bi-Annual exemption limit. We start with $11-12M, and spend $6M on 1st round draft choices, the remaining cap space would be less than the $6M, so we wouldn't lose the exemptions. But, the exemptions don't have to be renouced. They total approx. $7.5M, and if you're that far under the cap limit after the moratorium then you aren't eligible to receive them.