Westphal's Recent Coaching

[xrzn]

Westphal is starting to remind me of my grandfather, if you don't mind me being a little gnomic. My grandfather is, by far, the best cook I know. But he just can't leave well enough alone. He'll serve an amazing dish, and get the proper compliments, so he serves it again next time the family gets together, but he tweaks it a little. And then a little more, and eventually, it'll be nowhere near as good as you remember it being.

My point being, he should think strategically. Pick a lineup that you believe in in the long run, and make it work. Don't keep tweaking it from one game to the next.

This was a great post and exactly how I, and most probably the majority of us, feel at this point.

This is a young team, but at what point do in the season do you settle down and pick a steady starting lineup with a solid bench rotation? People talk about not knowing what to expect from players on a game-to-game basis, but how can you expect them to when they don't know when they're playing, how much they're playing, etc. etc? Players, in every sport, like routines. That goes the same for playing time, they expect to play a certain amount of minutes so their body gets use to it, especially for the rookies.

If the Kings want to win now, they need consistency soon. If not for this season, to at least buildup some sort of routine and chemistry with the guys MOST likely to stay for next season.

 

[Reem]

I think that he puts too much on tyreke and omri, and now brockman as a starting center.. you need to be careful with rookies, omri and brockman are doing a role, but tyreke play the hardest spot for a rookie, he needs to lead, to pass, to be a great defender, to take the final shots and even to rebound, that's too much to ask in his first year, even if you're michael jordan.
westphal can open with the same players every night, but the surprise should come off the bench, and continue with it if it does work, like he did against the bulls, the guys who gave him the lead stayed on the floor, and this is how things should be done, play for the hot hands..

obviously you ain't got no chris webber in this team so you gonna lose in the inside game, you can't give your everything 82 games like it's playoffs, it worked for a few games but it's too hard to play only with your heart, you gotta have more talent

 

[AriesMar27]

thats interesting... i hadnt really thought about it like that. i knew that we had a lot of lineup changes but didnt really look at it from the players perspective. minutes are minutes, whether you start or come off the bench. but this brings me to an interesting question, what starting lineup won us the most games? obviously it wouldnt include martin, he hasnt played.

 

[Kingster]

The only reason we're having this discussion is that the team is losing now. Nothing wrong with the substitutions. Hawes and JT and Casspi and to a certain extent Greene have all been inconsistent in their play, so I'd expect an inconsistent rotation.

 

[folsomfella]

The only reason we're having this discussion is that the team is losing now. Nothing wrong with the substitutions. Hawes and JT and Casspi and to a certain extent Greene have all been inconsistent in their play, so I'd expect an inconsistent rotation.

Westphal is well known for this strategy. I for one think it's asinine. Players should play themselves into or out of the game. Westphal seems to think this is some kind of chess match, and he keeps getting his *** beat at it.

 

[NewArena]

The only reason we're having this discussion is that the team is losing now. Nothing wrong with the substitutions. Hawes and JT and Casspi and to a certain extent Greene have all been inconsistent in their play, so I'd expect an inconsistent rotation.

Well we cant yank them from the lineup every time they have an average to poor game...that makes no sense. In the long run, this is our best lineup in my opinion until we find some better (hopefully) big men:

C: Spencer Hawes
PF:JT
SF:Casspi
SG:Martin
PG:Evans

 

[rainmaker]

The only reason we're having this discussion is that the team is losing now. Nothing wrong with the substitutions. Hawes and JT and Casspi and to a certain extent Greene have all been inconsistent in their play, so I'd expect an inconsistent rotation.

Exactly.
It seems some fans are just looking for a place to put the blame. The bottom line is Spencer has been horrible all year except for a handfull of games. JT is playing much worse than he was when we were winning games. Omri looks like he's hit the rookie wall. Donte is getting his first meaningfull playing time of his career, so I expect him to be inconsistent. Tyreke missed a few games and was dealing with a sprained ankle. The Kevin comes back.

So, of course there is going to be shuffling with the lineup. But its on the players to perform, and the effort hasn't been there. Donte and Omri are very young, so none of this inconsistency surprises me from them. But Spencer and JT don't have an excuse. It has nothing to do with coaching. Those two have got to man up and play some nba caliber basketball, or Petrie will be looking for replacements if he isn't already.

 

[jockthisfoo]

Tyreke
kevin
omri
donte
brockman

 

[Jkbiker]

Well we cant yank them from the lineup every time they have an average to poor game...that makes no sense. In the long run, this is our best lineup in my opinion until we find some better (hopefully) big men:

C: Spencer Hawes
PF:JT
SF:Casspi
SG:Martin
PG:Evans

I Agree these are our best 5 players - on offense, but Defense suffers and not enough shots for Spence ans Omri

So maybe the plan to put Brockman and Donte for defence and save the offensive of Spence and Omri for the bench

Sounds like a plan. Omri provided scoring off the bench, but playing Hilton off the bench - 12min and Spence only 4? WTF?

Now coach your not trying to balance the lineup, just punishing Spence to get him motivated again?

I think you need to get Spence agressive again, put him back in.

But maybe we need Donte in for defense and Omri shooting from the bench (give him same minutes as Donte) and leave Noce and Ime on the bench

Donte
Spence
JT
Reke
Kevin

Short bench with lots of Min

Brockman
Omri
Beno

Too many players in rotation, confusing substitutions

Noce, Ime, Hilton, Serg should be in only if poor perf by the starting 8
I mean real bad - otherwise let the eight get right with consistent minutes

 

[DeaconBlues]

I love Jon Brockman to bits, but he is not a starting center in this league, and never will be.

The Coach's job is more then just deciding on the rotation, he has the use the talent at his disposal to it's fullest, and I don't think Westphal has done a very good job of that with Spencer. Obviously, Spence himself should shoulder the bulk of the blame (and preferrably bench-press it a few times a day too) but he's been used early on mostly as a spot-up shooter, and hasn't really been given a very well defined role in the offense since.

His poor rebounding, though, is all on him.

And as for Omri - I actually like him better coming off the bench as back for both the 2 and 3, with Donte starting at the 3, because Donte's defense complements the starters better, while Omri's offense will be more effective against other bench players. Omri is also one of those guys who brings the same sort of focus and acumen coming off the bench as he does when he starts, which isn't that common.

But I digress. My original point was that the coach should have a strategy. Can anyone tell what Westphal's strategy is?

 

[SacKings384]

I think the fact that guys at some point will get many minutes, then none at all the next game is very disruptive for rhythm. When you know you're going to get minutes, and you play the same role, you only have to think about the game at hand. Instead, guys like Greene, Spencer, Brockman, Beno, Andres, etc. have to think what role they will be playing (if any) and how much time they will be getting (if any) before they even step on the floor. That can be difficult.

 

[FaStRmAn]

This was a great post and exactly how I, and most probably the majority of us, feel at this point.

This is a young team, but at what point do in the season do you settle down and pick a steady starting lineup with a solid bench rotation? People talk about not knowing what to expect from players on a game-to-game basis, but how can you expect them to when they don't know when they're playing, how much they're playing, etc. etc? Players, in every sport, like routines. That goes the same for playing time, they expect to play a certain amount of minutes so their body gets use to it, especially for the rookies.

If the Kings want to win now, they need consistency soon. If not for this season, to at least buildup some sort of routine and chemistry with the guys MOST likely to stay for next season.

I wonder how much of this "Tweaking the rotation" is contributeable to the injuries we have had, the changing availability of players, and the contributions that Coach Westphal is getting from the players he does have to compete with. I believe some of the constant change can be directly contributable to the fact that the Kings just dont have a real center right now.

Hawes is not able to defend the center position at an NBA level, so I think PW is constantly changing his lineup looking for ways to cover up for Hawes's deficiencies. That is only one example, but right now it looks like the biggest example of why there is so much instability in the lineup. I think if the Kings had a player they could plug into the 5 spot and would give you 35 minutes and could play defense, get rebounds, and alter some shots, I would be willing to bet that player would know how many minutes he would be getting on the Kings. A LOT!!

I think that would set the rotation and starting lineup for the rest of the team as well. I think JT would be your 4, Casspi your 3, Martin at 2, and Evans at one. At least that is how I would do it if we had a real center. Then with a starting lineup established, the coach could figure out rotations from that point and players would indeed have a better handle on how many minutes to expect and where they fit into the teams plans on a nightly basis.

I think that considering the fact that the Kings do NOT have a reliable center who can defend, rebound, and alter shots, Westphal has done a pretty decent job of changing the lineup to give us the best possible chance to win night in and night out. I haven't had much of a problem with the lineups he puts on the floor to start games. I am concerned that it DOES change often though. I think that if Geoff Petrie were to get us a Center that we can rely on to contribute to this team and give us the minutes we need a starting center in the NBA is expected to contribute, our lineup would be set.

I do not blame Coach Westphal for inheriting a team that didn't have a reliable center on the roster. That is just the way the team was when he got here. I don't blame Geoff Petrie for assuming that Spencer Hawes, in his 3rd NBA season as a NBA center would show the progress necessary to play center in the NBA. Normal Progress that all the other players that were drafted when he was drafted and even after he was drafted have shown. Hawes just hasn't kept up with the program for whatever reasons. And in truth, I don't even blame Hawes because of how young he was drafted and how the system is set up for Young Bigs to fail more often than succeed with how young the NBA is forcing teams to taking this kids and trying to put them in their lineups against grown men.

Hawes would be a Senior in College this year. He is 21 years old. He isn't even done growing, and could possible grow even taller. But the fact of the matter is that he hasn't matured into his own body yet. He is rail thin. In a couple of years of working out religiously and with the proper diet and exercise, I could see Hawes growing into his body, or achieve body maturity so to speak. Hawes needs at least 25-35 pounds MORE muscle fr the frame of a 7'1" Center in the NBA. He could put that much weight on and you and I might not even notice it as big as he is! He needs it mostly in the lower body so that it is harder to dislodge him in the post and to help him push other centers out of the paint, and in his upper body so that he can get shots off in traffic and for rebounding and positioning

Every shot a Center in the NBA takes in the paint, they are going to get bumped. The refs do not call those fouls. It is expected that an NBA Center absorb those type of blows and make the shots anyway. Hawes gets nudged and he misses his shot and then he wastes a lot of energy crying to the officials who know that he got bumped, but they have an NBA basketball game to officiate!!! They couldn't possibly call every little bump foul that Hawes gets just because Hawes hasn't grown into his body yet!! No, the onus of working out and growing into a 7'1" frame belongs to Spencer Hawes. If he is up to the task, then he MAY become a very good center in the future, because he has a lot of other skills that are not teachable that will help him succeed. But working out and building body mass is something he and the training staff CAN and MUST control if he is to succeed !

 

[pshn80]

I don't think Westphal has the option of starting his best players. Who are they? Certainly we can't agree. I think he doing just fine. He certainly has a lot of basketball experience helping him out. With all the 'time bombs' (guys just waiting to get their hands on the ball to screw things up) that we have on the team it sometimes is like pin the tail on the donkey. Go Kings!

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I have to imagine that its been tough on the players, but at the same time, we've had so many guys in and out of the lineup ( due to injury ) that I can see why its been hard for Westphal to pick a set rotation. Martins been out, Greene was out a few games .. Evans missed some time. Then we also had May and Mason in the mix for a few early games.


When we get Cisco back / The trading deadline comes and goes, then its time to really settle down, and pick a rotation.

 

[Kingster]

Westphal is well known for this strategy. I for one think it's asinine. Players should play themselves into or out of the game. Westphal seems to think this is some kind of chess match, and he keeps getting his *** beat at it.

He's getting his A$$ beat because he doesn't have the horses. He's substituting freely for the same reason he did at the beginning of the season - to get maximum effort, to get a buy-in to team ball, and to get the best matchup he can.

 

[Kingster]

I think the fact that guys at some point will get many minutes, then none at all the next game is very disruptive for rhythm. When you know you're going to get minutes, and you play the same role, you only have to think about the game at hand. Instead, guys like Greene, Spencer, Brockman, Beno, Andres, etc. have to think what role they will be playing (if any) and how much time they will be getting (if any) before they even step on the floor. That can be difficult.

On the other hand, when you know you're going to get minutes, you're going to have a tendency to be complacent. Westphal does no favors to the team or to the players by rewarding them for their mistakes. Sure, he has to use judgement and not take them out on every single mistake, but if he sees it repeatedly he's got to take them out and have them think about it. And sometimes he's taking them out because they need to get out of their funky mindset (Thompson). Personally, I wish Greene had a longer leash, but no coach is ever going to do everything you think they should.

 

[Bricklayer]

On the other hand, when you know you're going to get minutes, you're going to have a tendency to be complacent. Westphal does no favors to the team or to the players by rewarding them for their mistakes. Sure, he has to use judgement and not take them out on every single mistake, but if he sees it repeatedly he's got to take them out and have them think about it. And sometimes he's taking them out because they need to get out of their funky mindset (Thompson). Personally, I wish Greene had a longer leash, but no coach is ever going to do everything you think they should.

No good team uses players that way -- the disrutpion far outweighs the other stuff. A good team is a well oiled machine where everybody knows their roles and everybody knows what everybody else is going to do on the court without even thinking about it. Now that's not us of course. But coaching the team like its a video game isn't ever going to get us to that point either. A move here or there after sustained sucktatude? Sure. Changing the lineup almost literally every night? That's sorry to say, kind of amateurish. It started getting worse about the same time we started to strugle, and its chicken and egg which caused which. But they likely do feed off each other.

 

[Rug King]

I think that he's trying to develope roles right now. That's part of what this year is about. How do you know if Caspi should start over Green? How do you motivate Spencer to play tough defence without taking his playing time away? We don't know yet but I want the player who has the most hunger to win, excell at his position and play within his role. That's being established right now. Not only that but some of these guys are not going to be here next year. Let's know what we got, who is coachable and I think PW is doing that.

 

[Prince_XY]

Do not blame Westphal for the inconsistencies in rotation. The guy has actually done wonders so far in making this team win some games.

Blame Petrie for having given Westphall a big headache. There is just too much imbalance in this team that you have to tweak the line-up every game just to get the right balance against any given team. There is just too many small forwards and wing players and no one is decent enough to play the 5.

 

[VF21]

Do not blame Westphal for the inconsistencies in rotation. The guy has actually done wonders so far in making this team win some games.

Blame Petrie for having given Westphall a big headache. There is just too much imbalance in this team that you have to tweak the line-up every game just to get the right balance against any given team. There is just too many small forwards and wing players and no one is decent enough to play the 5.

That's why we're a REBUILDING team and not a rebuilt team. After all this time, I just cannot imagine why people still have so much trouble grasping the concept.

This team is nowhere near being a done deal, a complete package.

 

[nickmcclure]

Tyreke
kevin
omri
donte
brockman

Undersized much? That's my favorite line-up as far as liking the players but I think we'd give up 45 dunks a game lol.


I think Westphal's a great coach but I do question his starting line-ups I mean cmon man, you're starting Andres Nocioni? I know his salary is starter-esque but his skills lack. Let's start Omri who has a shot at being a great player.

 

[xrzn]

Against Jazz: Greene plays 1 minutes, Hawes get no action down the stretch in the 4th, messy lineups and rotations.

What is this "coach" doing?

 

[Rockmeister]

Against Jazz: Greene plays 1 minutes, Hawes get no action down the stretch in the 4th, messy lineups and rotations.

What is this "coach" doing?

Greene played 4:24. I don't get where you got 1 minute. Although I felts he deserved more minutes tonight.

 

[xrzn]

Greene played 4:24. I don't get where you got 1 minute. Although I felts he deserved more minutes tonight.

He played 1 minute in the first half. I also honestly didn't see the other 3 minutes and 24 seconds.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I didn't see the game, saw the minutes for Donte on the yahoo box score and assumed his ankle was hurt. Was he healthy? What gives?

 

[Rockmeister]

He played 1 minute in the first half. I also honestly didn't see the other 3 minutes and 24 seconds.

I saw the boxscore and it said 4:24.

 

[xrzn]

I didn't see the game, saw the minutes for Donte on the yahoo box score and assumed his ankle was hurt. Was he healthy? What gives?

He started the game, drove to the basket and took a wild shot. After that, coach yanked him, brought in Casspi, and we didn't see him again in the 1st half. And like I said above, I have no idea when he played the other 3 minutes and 24 seconds. If he had hurt his ankle in the 1st half, no way he would've played in the 2nd half.

 

[Kingster]

I saw Greene force one shot, but I don't undertand why Westphal would keep him out the rest of the game for that, especially if you look at what's been happening with Thompson lately.

 

[Rockmeister]

I didn't see the game, saw the minutes for Donte on the yahoo box score and assumed his ankle was hurt. Was he healthy? What gives?

Nobody knows.

 

[Tetsujin]

He started the game, drove to the basket and took a wild shot. After that, coach yanked him, brought in Casspi, and we didn't see him again in the 1st half. And like I said above, I have no idea when he played the other 3 minutes and 24 seconds. If he had hurt his ankle in the 1st half, no way he would've played in the 2nd half.

Who promptly did the exact same thing.... twice. I almost get the feeling that Westphal's leash is too tight on certain players and nonexistent on others (see Andres "All I do is foul and shoot" Nocioni)