Westphal

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#31
Don't be facetious. Whether Martin is willing to accept a change in his role is not the question here, the question is can he adjust his game in order to fit in with the current scheme.

Evans is ineffective off the ball, and Martin's job so far has involved him creating off the dribble. Can he be effective off the ball? it would take a serious adjustment. And having a scheme where Tyreke dribbles out the clock on some possessions, and Martin dribbles it out on others is not a winning proposition.

I'm not questioning Martin's character, but being asked to change your style of play mid-season five years into your pro career is a tall order, and anyone who thinks it'll just go over without a hitch is delusional.
Excuse me?

I've been saying it since June and I'll say it again, since you apparently missed it.

Kevin Martin was vocal about wanting Tyreke Evans for the Kings. He has said so since the very beginning and he's backed it up consistently. They've spent a lot of time together while Kev has been on the mend and are both looking forward to playing together on the court.

As far as me being delusional, I'd really appreciate it on several levels if you'd keep your comments civil. I haven't been disrespectful to you or your comments and I'd greatly appreciate the same in return.
 
#32
Excuse me?

I've been saying it since June and I'll say it again, since you apparently missed it.

Kevin Martin was vocal about wanting Tyreke Evans for the Kings. He has said so since the very beginning and he's backed it up consistently. They've spent a lot of time together while Kev has been on the mend and are both looking forward to playing together on the court.

As far as me being delusional, I'd really appreciate it on several levels if you'd keep your comments civil. I haven't been disrespectful to you or your comments and I'd greatly appreciate the same in return.
Again, Martin's willingness to adjust to the new roster or his willingness to defer to Tyreke is not in question here.

The fact remains that in order to fit in with the new roster and scheme he will have to play differently then he's used to. He may manage it, and he may not, but it will take more then just a positive attitude to accomplish.

This is not a knock on Martin's character or ability. Like I said, it's a tall order.

If you really think it will take nothing more than a positive attitude then, well, I'd like to sound less abrasive, and I don't mean to rub you the wrong way, but there's really no way to sugar coat it. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I honestly don't think it's rational to assume that Martin's reinsertion into the lineup will go smoothly based solely on his attitude.

I don't mean to insult you, I respect you and have consistently enjoyed your posts. But there simply appears to be an enormous gulf between our respective views of the game.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#33
How long have you watched the Kings?

Martin can be very effective off the ball as his quickness enables him to be one of the best cutters we've had on the team in a very long time. It's all contingent, however, on having someone who can spot him and get the ball to him - a Vlade-like presence, if you will. Last year, for example, one of the few bright spots was the rapport that was developing between Hawes in the high post and Martin cutting in from the perimeter. And that was without an effective point guard. Add the talents of Evans into the mix, and I think there's a chance for real cohesive team play. If anything is needed, it will be a functional Hawes more than a change by Martin.

Any time a player comes back from an injury there are adjustments that have to be made to integrate him back into the lineup effectively. What I'm saying is that knowing Martin, I'm pretty sure he'll be working very hard to do it and will put the team's needs first.
 
#34
To be honest, not too long, or rather, not too often. But what I have seen causes misgivings.

Cutting to the basket is one thing, but for two guards to feed off one another one usually has to be able to play off screens well which is a different matter altogether (and requires good screeners, which is a different matter that raises it's own concerns) which will require further adjustment by the team as a whole, not just Martin.

The talent is unquestionably there, but the adjustments which the reinstatement of Martin will require (and I'm talking about the adjustments required for the team to realize it's potential not just enough to get him his shots) are far from superficial.

I see a time consuming, somewhat frustrating process ahead, for the players as well as the fans. I'm not saying it can't end well, or that it won't end well, it just looks like a tricky business, even with the positive attitude of everyone involved taken into account.

I guess what I'm saying is that I advise cautious optimism, and moreover, that I would consider any success for the new lineup earlier then next season to be ahead of schedule.

My attitude is more "I'd like to see Martin back in the lineup after they've gone through training camp together" Then I'd "I'd like to see Martin back in the lineup."
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#35
????????

Are you saying Martin cannot play off a screen?

EDIT: You know what? Never mind. It's very clear we're speaking from totally different points of view and, while I mean no disrespect whatsoever, I just do not think you've actually seen enough of Martin's game to know what I'm talking about.

Peace.
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#36
Don't be facetious. Whether Martin is willing to accept a change in his role is not the question here, the question is can he adjust his game in order to fit in with the current scheme.

Evans is ineffective off the ball, and Martin's job so far has involved him creating off the dribble. Can he be effective off the ball? it would take a serious adjustment. And having a scheme where Tyreke dribbles out the clock on some possessions, and Martin dribbles it out on others is not a winning proposition.

I'm not questioning Martin's character, but being asked to change your style of play mid-season five years into your pro career is a tall order, and anyone who thinks it'll just go over without a hitch is delusional.
I disagree. Martin doesn't create off the dribble the majority of the time, he creates by moving with out the ball. If anything, Kevin will help the problem of our offense becoming stagnant and dribbling out the clock. Right now, when Tyrke has the ball, he doesn't have cutters anywhere near as effective as kevin.

Kevin has played with a a few ball-dominant players, and fits in just fine. I don't see why you think Kevin has to change his game. He might be the best in the league coming off screens and miving with out the ball. He has never been the clearout/iso type. Now, defensively, is a different question, although he was improving there.
 
#37
????????

Are you saying Martin cannot play off a screen?

EDIT: You know what? Never mind. It's very clear we're speaking from totally different points of view and, while I mean no disrespect whatsoever, I just do not think you've actually seen enough of Martin's game to know what I'm talking about.

Peace.
So we're done arguing, how about a friendly wager? If the Kings finish the season with same win percentage that they had the night Kevin was reinserted I get to determine your sig for the rest of the offseason, and otherwise you get to determine mine.

I warn you, last time I was wrong about anything was in the early 90's, and I was feverish.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#38
So we're done arguing, how about a friendly wager? If the Kings finish the season with same win percentage that they had the night Kevin was reinserted I get to determine your sig for the rest of the offseason, and otherwise you get to determine mine.

I warn you, last time I was wrong about anything was in the early 90's, and I was feverish.
I don't make bets.
 

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#40
That settles it then. Good night and good luck. Hope I'm wrong for once.
If you really wanted to go out on a limb, you'd wager that they'd have the same winning pct. with him later in the year that they had with him earlier in the year.
Your wager is a little disingenuous as the schedule isn't as kind later as it was earlier.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#41
I have tagged the same thing in a past post.

The problem is that Kevin and Reke do NOT have complimentary games. The only part of Kevin's game that is complimentary is the outside shooting, which you don't need a Kevin Martin to do. Otherwise they are different schools. Kevin's game works with a Webb. It does not work with a ball dominant guard looking to attack.

The key is that a big can stand in there at the elbow, or in the post, and that big is in threat position. So if you have a good passing big, that big can stand there, hold the ball, be a threat, while Kevin runs around in circles trying to get open.

Tyreke on the other hand is a guard in constant attack mode. He can't sit around and wait for Kevin to run around doing his thing without it taking away his own aggressiveness. Nor for that matter could LeBron -- its not about Tyreke, its about style. They directly conflict. And everytime Kevin runs around trying to get picks and cuts it just brings more traffic down in between Reke (or LeBron) and the hoop. One style or the other will have to triumph, because they both don't work together. You can either have Kevin do his thing while Reke is knocked back into a passive dribbler role, and maybe not that effective a one since he can't shoot to create space or when the clock runs out. Or you tell Kevin to spot up and stay out of the way, which 100 guards in the league could do nearly as well.
 
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#42
If you really wanted to go out on a limb, you'd wager that they'd have the same winning pct. with him later in the year that they had with him earlier in the year.
Your wager is a little disingenuous as the schedule isn't as kind later as it was earlier.
You mean the amazingly telling sample of the first three games of the season, before they found any rhythm and were still getting to know one another? And I'm the one being disingenuous?

I have tagged the same thing in a past post.

The problem is that Kevin and Reke do NOT have complimentary games. The only part of Kevin's game that is complimentary is the outside shooting, which you don't need a Kevin Martin to do. Otherwise they are different schools. Kevin's game works with a Webb. It does not work with a ball dominant guard looking to attack.

The key is that a big can stand in there at the elbow, or in the post, and that big is in threat position. So if you have a good passing big, that big can stand there, hold the ball, be a threat, while Kevin runs around in circles trying to get open.

Tyreke on the other hand is a guard in constant attack mode. He can't sit around and wait for Kevin to run around doing his thing without it taking away his own aggressiveness. Nor for that matter could LeBron -- its not about Tyreke, its about style. They directly conflict. And everytime Kevin runs around trying to get picks and cuts it just brings more traffic down in between Reke (or LeBron) and the hoop. One style or the other will have to triumph, because they both don't work together. You can either have Kevin do his thing while Reke is knocked back into a passive dribbler role, and maybe not that effective a one since he can't shoot to create space or when the clock runs out. Or you tell Kevin to spot up and stay out of the way, which 100 guards in the league could do nearly as well.
Another matter I forgot to mention last night is that offensively, the Kings seem to be doing OK. Martin might be able to help close out a few more away games, but that extra offensive clout isn't exactly what they need. And their already suspect defense will most likely take a hit.

And then, of course, there are all those favourable match ups for Tyreke against smaller guards that won't be there anymore.
 
#43
Another matter I forgot to mention last night is that offensively, the Kings seem to be doing OK. Martin might be able to help close out a few more away games, but that extra offensive clout isn't exactly what they need. And their already suspect defense will most likely take a hit.

And then, of course, there are all those favourable match ups for Tyreke against smaller guards that won't be there anymore.
A few items I want to discuss here.

1.) As I've mentioned in previous posts I actually think that Garcia would be a better fit next to Tyreke than Martin solely due to the fact that he has more qualities we need for the team to have success.
A.) Garcia has 4 Primary Qualities

i.) Big 6'7 guard
ii.) Good deep ball shooter to spread the floor
iii.) Good ball Handler
iv.) Good Defender

B.) Kevin has 2 Primary Qualities

i.) Big 6'7 guard
ii.) Good deep ball shooter to spread the floor

With that said, Garcia has shown himself to be a very good player in a 6th man role, and Martin is an obvious starting 2-guard. And with the amount of money Martin is getting paid (which I think he's worth) you really need to have him starting.

2.) The only reason to trade Martin is to get a defensive big man or a star big man to best compliment Tyreke.
When Martin comes back he is going to give this team a lift and will help us win games. However, the lift he gives us utterly pales in comparison to the lift that the team would get if we got a big man defensive anchor, or a star big man such as Bosh.
In my mind trading Martin has nothing to do with him 'hurting' our team, but everything to do with using our most valuable trading asset to get the piece which could potentially put us on the road towards championship contention.
So I would trade Martin because he can be the asset which gets us to where we want to be and I think that Garcia could step in and be a wonderful fit next to Tyreke.

3.) In regards to Martin's game I want to mention a few things.

A.) He is a tall 6'7 guard.
So if there is a perception that having Kevin next to Tyreke will negate a mismatch, then that perception is incorrect. The opposing team will be forced to either put their PG on our 6'6 PG or our 6'7 SG.
And to be honest, I'm fine with either mismatch. This isn't a Brad Miller situation where putting a small guy on him(Martin) negates effectiveness.
Kevin Martin is a superb scorer. He's a veteran and very savy. Though he really isn't a post-up threat, he does a very good job at moving with-out the ball and catching and shooting over shorter players.
His scoring output would have been even better last year if he were guarded by the team's opposing PG.
Now, I think that having the opposing team put their PG on Tyreke is a better mismatch than on Kevin, but either way, it's a mismatch which will really benefit the team.

B.) Martin is superb with moving with-out the ball.
In fact, at his age and given his quickness and shooting ability, he's probably the best player in the league at getting quality scoring opportunities by moving with-out the ball.
His problem has always been his ball-handling. If he had Tyreke's ball-handling skills he'd be perennial all-star. So he's not a guy who is going to be ball dominant, pounding the ball while looking for an opportunity to take his man off the dribble. We saw him try more of that last year with little success. And it is this lack of handling ability in addition to his defense which has kept him from being a lock as an all-star.

C.) Martin was showing a renewed effort on defense this year.
You all remember his first couple of years. Early on he was a decent defender due to his quickness and height. He has never been a good weak-side defender, but his man defense was pretty good.
This year it looked as if he was making a larger commitment on the defensive end. We know he has the quickness, so we'll have to see if he can make strides in that area.
In regards to his defense I want to mention a couple of things.
i.) His injury was to his wrist not to his feet/ankles/legs. If indeed it was that ankle of his causing problems last year, he should still have the quickness to be a decent defender when he gets back, so that's a good thing.
ii.) If he doesn't feel the pressure of having to put up 30 points a night, we should see him use more energy on the defensive end. So I do expect to see more energy from him in guarding the bucket.
iii.) He's a better defender than Beno. So if the choice is to have him in the line-up or Beno, then if I'm looking from a defensive perspective, Martin is the clear winner. I actually do think that Donte is a far superior defender compared to Martin, which is why I think having Donte play out of position at the SG spot works with reasonable effectiveness.

So though we are not getting a defensive juggernaut when Martin returns, he's better than Beno, and there is some hope that he won't be a complete liability. (Though we'll just have to wait and find out.)

4.) Kevin's integration back into the Team (The Westphal Factor)

A lot has been discussed about how it will all work out trying to re-integrate Martin back with this team.

i.) The first question was 'Will Kevin Buy In'. I think that answer to that is 'Yes'. I think Kevin's been seeing the success of the team and will want to contribute as much as he can towards that success.
He's always been a great character guy so I think he'll make every effort to buy into what the team's been doing.
Fortunately for us, he's played with a lot of ball-dominant players, and his early success was completely driven by moving with-out the ball, so it's something he's had success with (20 PPG) and can slip back into.
I also expect him to play with renewed defensive commitment .

ii.) The second, and far bigger question is 'Can Kevin's game compliment Tyreke's game in a manner which can create one of the most elite guard line-ups in the NBA.
And this is where I have my concerns.
While Martin is not ball dominant, it's true as has been pointed out by Bricklayer on many occasions, that Martin can require a lot of team involvement to help him effectively move with-out the ball while being a primary offensive option.
And I actually think the adjustment is on Tyreke's end. I don't think Tyreke has ever played alongside a player of Martin's caliber who can move with the ball and get fantastic scoring opportunities.
Will Tyreke know when to hit Kevin as he is getting open?
Will the team be able to have movement and set screens/picks for Martin while keeping the spacing necessary for Tyreke to work?
I think it's going to be a major challenge.

iii.) I dubbed this section the Westphal Factor. This thread was originally about him. So, I think it's pretty obvious that there is going to be a major challenge in getting Tyreke adjusted to the type of game that Martin plays. It will also be a major challenge to do this while still keeping Tyreke effective at what he does best.
With that said, if we can see this, than so can Westphal and his staff. Since we have the luxury of easing Martin back into the team, there should be plenty of time for Westphal to work out various means to make it work.
If Westphal and his staff can make it work, then you have the most elite guard lineup in the NBA, and you then work to use all of your other resources to bring in a big man to finish up the team.
Also, if Westphal can put something together, then playoffs are a realistic goal, and he could be considered for COY.
If he can't get something to work, then trading Martin is the best option.

Final Thoughts

I would like to see if Westphal can put something together to make Tyreke and Martin both play to their best potential. I think it's a very tall order and one that might not turn out as well as we'd like. With that said, if we have the opportunity to use Martin to get a Star Big then I'd do that trade even if it meant not getting to see what Martin and Tyreke can do together.

I do think it's far too soon to say with absolute authority that a Martin/Tyreke pairing won't work, but you have to acknowledge that there are some major challenges to be overcome if those two are to play to their maximum potential. However, if Westphal can put together a plan to make it work, then we'd be a bigman away from making major waves in the playoffs.