Westbrook Signs with the Kings

Good Move or Bad Move?

  • Total voters
    38
Joshyjosh31 said:
Shut Flagg down he won’t get better playing in games



What about monk was he not the backup guard
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Yeah lol. Carter was already sent to the shadow-realm without a route to playing time with Dennis/LaVine/Monk/Keon and some Nique who can play either 2 or 3.

This just now eats into Keon/Nique's limited playing time even more. We'll be generous and say they keep Russ around 20 MPG (which, could easily be closer to 25 with Keegan injured)

Dennis 28 || Monk 20
Lavine 32 || Nique 16
DDR 32 || Keon 16
Russ 20 || IJ 16 || Maxime 12
Domas 34 || Eubanks 14

With Keegan

Dennis 28 || Russ 20
Lavine 32 || Monk 16
DDR 32 || Keon 16
Keegan 34 || IJ/Maxime 14
Domas 34 || Eubanks 14

It works for now, because you're pulling Keegan's 34+ MPG out of the rotation, but 1. All the young guys are just done when he comes back and 2. This could have been a huge opportunity for Carter to play everyday and we're just giving those minutes to Russ now instead. Someone from the Nique/Keon/Monk group goes to 0 when Keegan comes back.

Disaster
 
Spike said:
I don't even know what to think at this point.
Well, I do, but this is a family-friendly board.

If we're stealth tanking, we're spray painting the tank in highly-visible #ccff00. If MGMT believes that they are truly building a winning team...oy.
The reality of the situation is that we're probably looking to put butts in the seats AND gloriously lose. The fallout from this process, however, may be too much, and we could lose some players that we need for the next iteration. Oddly enough, I believe that somewhere within all of this rubble is actually a competitive team - but we seem to make moves in spite of that fact. This is one such move.
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"Stealth tanking" --- that sounds like an oxymoron.
 
Krunker said:
Yeah I'm sure that is what Vivek is going for, if he came off the bench and was the tough vet to mentor the young guys that could be good, but if he is starting and taking up big minutes then I dunno, it is short term entertainment I guess. He is pretty close to 10,000 assists and the PG scoring record so I think he wants to play.
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Or he could use $1.8 million dollars.
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
Just about everything that Perry has done, is exactly what I can see Ranadive doing if he was the one deciding on the moves. (He is)

This just confirms how pitiful this organization truly is
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The sad part is I don't think Dennis or even Russ are like *that* bad of players, at this point in their careers. Russ just got done being pretty good over in DEN and Dennis is like.. the 26th best PG in the NBA.

But they made NO moves to build around thinking those guys can improve this team. 2 of 3 of Monk/Carter/Keon should have been traded before committing to bringing in Dennis and Russ.

Let's say that Kuminga deal would have gone through. Monk/Carter for Kuminga. Basically, the bet would have been Russ+Dennis+Kuminga improves us more than Monk/Carter/Jval. We can agree or disagree on which side of that 3v3 is better, but at least the team would have actually been set up for success and given a chance heading into the season.

Now, they just added a cluster**** to an already full back-court with 3 guys (Keon/Carter/Nique) who SHOULD be in everyday roles on the wing and guard slots. There's no gameplan or team building strategy here; it's all the signs of an incompetent owner who clearly took back control of making personal moves from the adults in the room.

Monte at least built a functionally very good team that showed real success on the floor. Where he faltered is he didn't add to that core and improve on it, but Fox-Huerter-HB-Keegan-Domas with Monk-Lyles in every sense was a well-built roster and core. This current group... is not.
 
Padrino said:
While I previously expressed a growing affinity for your particular coping mechanisms... this is just silliness. Carter is a wasted pick if he goes undeveloped. His shoulder injury doesn't portend a career beset by DNPs; he's not 6'11", 250 lbs, with knee and ankle problems. He's played 36 games of NBA basketball, and only averaged 11 mpg in that span. To write him off before the 25-26 season starts is some next-level catastrophizing. Carter hasn't even begun his sophomore campaign yet. He hasn't even been given a minute of playing time during the preseason!

If we want to understand why the Kings are consistently bad, it's largely because they're short-sighted. They're always aiming for the playoffs now, even if they're not ready, and even if it means they're capped at the play-in. They try to shortcut the process of scouting, drafting, and developing young talent. Sometimes, they just give up on them altogether and watch them blossom elsewhere.

They've currently got four intriguing younger players in Keegan Murray, Keon Ellis, Devin Carter, and Nique Clifford. None are very likely to become future stars, but all are talented, particularly on the defensive end. For the first time in years, the Kings have a young nucleus that can help the franchise forge a legitimate defensive identity. They should be casting off just about everyone who's not Murray/Ellis/Carter/Clifford so they can prioritize minutes for 25-and-unders, and lose a ton of games in an attempt to draft one of those franchise-level talents whom Murray/Ellis/Carter/Clifford would perfectly complement. More to the point, they should do it soon, before they have to decide if they want to commit money to Murray/Ellis/Carter/Clifford in the long-term.

But my guess is they're just going to do what they've been doing since the mid-2000s: take shortcuts, ship off veteran talent in exchange for veteran talent, punt on developing their youth, watch some number of the four names above depart in free agency or via trade while committing long-term money to others without any kind of definable plan, trot out mismatched rosters held together by duct tape, all so they can compete for that Glorious 10th Seed year after year.
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And here's the key point. We don't know. And we should be trying to figure out what a season of 1600+ minutes for Devin Carter/Nique look like. What do IJ/Maxime do with 1000+ minutes off the bench? We should see what 30+ MPG for Keon looks like. We should see what prioritizing Keegan getting 15+ FGA looks like. If the organizational directive is to never let these guys see the floor, develop and "learn on the job" so to speak then we're never giving them a chance to actually take a potential leap into being a long-term starter or even a star. Hell, what more does Keon need to do to prove he's an NBA starter and he's still going to be fighting for minutes this season.

Say Russ plays 70 games this year at 20 MPG. That's 1400 minutes of floor time that could be going to finding out what any of our under 25's potentially have going forward in a consistent rotation role. Just horrendous.
 
Personally I think this is a big over reaction by fans. It’s a one year deal and you already knew it was going to be a tone setting year not a developmental one. Scott and Doug have said so repeatedly. It’s like having your girlfriend tell you they are dumping you after you have seen her on a date with someone else.

To me there are two opposing outcomes here.

Outcome 1: Kings somehow out perform expectations and win 43-46 games. They are in the mix for the playoffs.

Outcome 2: kings perform at or below expectations and are a few games under .500 at the deadline. At that point the team would likely look to move a player or two. If they could trade Derozan for an expiring for example that would clear 35 minutes up for young guards and forwards for the last 20 plus games AND you clear all that money off the books to take care of Keon/ make other moves next year.
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
Just about everything that Perry has done, is exactly what I can see Ranadive doing if he was the one deciding on the moves. (He is)

This just confirms how pitiful this organization truly is
Click to expand...

Agreed. You sign 37-year-old Russell Westbrook because you're desperate to remain in the play-in conversation, and you're not confident enough in your program or your people to get it done with the roster you claimed that you wanted to evaluate during this "gap year". But what the hell use is your "gap year" at all if the players who will actually be on the roster beyond this season are marginalized at best and buried at worst because you went and chased 10th-seeded glory?
 
The_Jamal said:
The sad part is I don't think Dennis or even Russ are like *that* bad of players, at this point in their careers. Russ just got done being pretty good over in DEN and Dennis is like.. the 26th best PG in the NBA.

But they made NO moves to build around thinking those guys can improve this team. 2 of 3 of Monk/Carter/Keon should have been traded before committing to bringing in Dennis and Russ.

Let's say that Kuminga deal would have gone through. Monk/Carter for Kuminga. Basically, the bet would have been Russ+Dennis+Kuminga improves us more than Monk/Carter/Jval. We can agree or disagree on which side of that 3v3 is better, but at least the team would have actually been set up for success and given a chance heading into the season.

Now, they just added a cluster**** to an already full back-court with 3 guys (Keon/Carter/Nique) who SHOULD be in everyday roles on the wing and guard slots. There's no gameplan or team building strategy here; it's all the signs of an incompetent owner who clearly took back control of making personal moves from the adults in the room.

Monte at least built a functionally very good team that showed real success on the floor. Where he faltered is he didn't add to that core and improve on it, but Fox-Huerter-HB-Keegan-Domas with Monk-Lyles in every sense was a well-built roster and core. This current group... is not.
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If someone had told us last Christmas, that the Kings would be going into this season with a Lavine/Westbrook lineup.

It's so sorry, that it's hilarious
 
iowamcnabb said:
Personally I think this is a big over reaction by fans. It’s a one year deal and you already knew it was going to be a tone setting year not a developmental one. Scott and Doug have said so repeatedly. It’s like having your girlfriend tell you they are dumping you after you have seen her on a date with someone else.

To me there are two opposing outcomes here.

Outcome 1: Kings somehow out perform expectations and win 43-46 games. They are in the mix for the playoffs.

Outcome 2: kings perform at or below expectations and are a few games under .500 at the deadline. At that point the team would likely look to move a player or two. If they could trade Derozan for an expiring for example that would clear 35 minutes up for young guards and forwards for the last 20 plus games AND you clear all that money off the books to take care of Keon/ make other moves next year.
Click to expand...

Outcome 1 seems tremendously unlikely in the Western Conference this season. Outcome 2 seems like the median outcome. And there's a third outcome that's hardly implausible: an aging team of non-defenders that lacks size, shooting, and cohesion ends up the second or third worst team in the conference. They'd be well-positioned to earn a high draft pick in this scenario, of course, but it would remain an open question if Vivek would actually commit to the rebuild necessary to maximize whatever talent comes from that high draft pick, or if he'd just keep kludging spare veteran parts together and preventing this franchise from ever properly moving forward.
 
The_Jamal said:
Yeah lol. Carter was already sent to the shadow-realm without a route to playing time with Dennis/LaVine/Monk/Keon and some Nique who can play either 2 or 3.

This just now eats into Keon/Nique's limited playing time even more. We'll be generous and say they keep Russ around 20 MPG (which, could easily be closer to 25 with Keegan injured)

Dennis 28 || Monk 20
Lavine 32 || Nique 16
DDR 32 || Keon 16
Russ 20 || IJ 16 || Maxime 12
Domas 34 || Eubanks 14

With Keegan

Dennis 28 || Russ 20
Lavine 32 || Monk 16
DDR 32 || Keon 16
Keegan 34 || IJ/Maxime 14
Domas 34 || Eubanks 14

It works for now, because you're pulling Keegan's 34+ MPG out of the rotation, but 1. All the young guys are just done when he comes back and 2. This could have been a huge opportunity for Carter to play everyday and we're just giving those minutes to Russ now instead. Someone from the Nique/Keon/Monk group goes to 0 when Keegan comes back.

Disaster
Click to expand...

Look at the minutes when it’s time to trade monk and Carter we’re gonna be getting peanuts for them



iowamcnabb said:
Personally I think this is a big over reaction by fans. It’s a one year deal and you already knew it was going to be a tone setting year not a developmental one. Scott and Doug have said so repeatedly. It’s like having your girlfriend tell you they are dumping you after you have seen her on a date with someone else.

To me there are two opposing outcomes here.

Outcome 1: Kings somehow out perform expectations and win 43-46 games. They are in the mix for the playoffs.

Outcome 2: kings perform at or below expectations and are a few games under .500 at the deadline. At that point the team would likely look to move a player or two. If they could trade Derozan for an expiring for example that would clear 35 minutes up for young guards and forwards for the last 20 plus games AND you clear all that money off the books to take care of Keon/ make other moves next year.
Click to expand...

This teams ceiling is like 40 wins

For outcome two do you really think vevik is letting us trade away Derozan if we are a few games back from the 10th seed?!? Zero chance he sees the play-in in sight and throws it away
 
Padrino said:
Outcome 1 seems tremendously unlikely in the Western Conference this season. Outcome 2 seems like the median outcome. And there's a third outcome that's hardly implausible: an aging team of non-defenders that lacks size, shooting, and cohesion ends up the second or third worst team in the conference. They'd be well-positioned to earn a high draft pick in this scenario, of course, but it would remain an open question if Vivek would actually commit to the rebuild necessary to maximize whatever talent comes from that high draft pick, or if he'd just keep kludging spare veteran parts together and preventing this franchise from ever properly moving forward.
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I think outcome #2 is the most likely for sure. The third outcome is possible but even if they just hold on to that high ‘26 pick and add pieces here and there that’s a reasonable pivot. One of the 3 stars in the next draft or even my biased and personal favorite Bennett Stirtz paired with Keegan, Keon, Nique, Max and Devin would be a good start.
 
The_Jamal said:
And here's the key point. We don't know. And we should be trying to figure out what a season of 1600+ minutes for Devin Carter/Nique look like. What do IJ/Maxime do with 1000+ minutes off the bench? We should see what 30+ MPG for Keon looks like. We should see what prioritizing Keegan getting 15+ FGA looks like. If the organizational directive is to never let these guys see the floor, develop and "learn on the job" so to speak then we're never giving them a chance to actually take a potential leap into being a long-term starter or even a star. Hell, what more does Keon need to do to prove he's an NBA starter and he's still going to be fighting for minutes this season.

Say Russ plays 70 games this year at 20 MPG. That's 1400 minutes of floor time that could be going to finding out what any of our under 25's potentially have going forward in a consistent rotation role. Just horrendous.
Click to expand...

Yeah, horrendous is definitely the right word. It's like this franchise is allergic to the tough work of development. And it aggravates me because you can imagine a world in which the Kings attempt an OKC or HOU style commitment to young defenders. They certainly don't have the topline young talent that either of those teams possess, but Murray/Ellis/Carter/Nique would be such a great start if they saw it for what it is and didn't squander it by underinvesting in its development during a pivotal moment for the franchise. The Beam Team is dead and gone. DDR and Schroeder and Westbrook and LaVine (and probably Sabonis, if we're frank) are not the future of this team. So they have to decide who is, and the fact that they seem to want to marginalize literally all of the players who could conceivably constitute "the future" is just insanity to me.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
I want to see the Venn diagram that shows the overlap between people who want the Kings to tank this season and people who are mad that we brought in Westbrook.
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Based on the poll at the end of the offseason here, and only including people who voted in both polls; here you go!

1760566915623.png

Names withheld generally, but I fall into the intersection (I think we should be rebuilding, and I think the Westbrook signing is good.)

In my mind, the Kings have already committed to NOT rebuilding this season, by not trading away our vets that might have some value on the trade market (Monk, Sabonis...maybe DDR) Maybe Perry tried and failed to get enough value, or maybe there really is a drive from ownership to compete for a play-in spot (I'm betting on the former)

Failing to achieve the best result of rebuilding, we ought to be fully committed to our plan B of trying to make the play-in. I may not get what I want, but at least somebody will be happy that the org is still trying to compete instead of tank. You win guys
 
Insomniacal Fan said:
Based on the poll at the end of the offseason here, and only including people who voted in both polls; here you go!

View attachment 14393

Names withheld generally, but I fall into the intersection (I think we should be rebuilding, and I think the Westbrook signing is good.)

In my mind, the Kings have already committed to NOT rebuilding this season, by not trading away our vets that might have some value on the trade market (Monk, Sabonis...maybe DDR) Maybe Perry tried and failed to get enough value, or maybe there really is a drive from ownership to compete for a play-in spot (I'm betting on the former)

Failing to achieve the best result of rebuilding, we ought to be fully committed to our plan B of trying to make the play-in. I may not get what I want, but at least somebody will be happy that the org is still trying to compete instead of tank. You win guys
Click to expand...

You don't think the owner is pressing for his fantasy post-season attempt?
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
You don't think the owner is pressing for his fantasy post-season attempt?
Click to expand...
It's possible; but it isn't the theory I subscribe to. I think that doing a half-rebuild isn't good for anybody (32 wins is NBA hell), and doing a full rebuild is impossible (not going to be able to deal Lavine AND Sabonis and get draft picks in return.)

So we wait while we burn some years from the contracts of our vets...
 
Insomniacal Fan said:
It's possible; but it isn't the theory I subscribe to. I think that doing a half-rebuild isn't good for anybody (32 wins is NBA hell), and doing a full rebuild is impossible (not going to be able to deal Lavine AND Sabonis and get draft picks in return.)

So we wait while we burn some years from the contracts of our vets...
Click to expand...

So why bring in Westbrook?
 
iowamcnabb said:
Personally I think this is a big over reaction by fans. It’s a one year deal and you already knew it was going to be a tone setting year not a developmental one. Scott and Doug have said so repeatedly. It’s like having your girlfriend tell you they are dumping you after you have seen her on a date with someone else.

To me there are two opposing outcomes here.

Outcome 1: Kings somehow out perform expectations and win 43-46 games. They are in the mix for the playoffs.

Outcome 2: kings perform at or below expectations and are a few games under .500 at the deadline. At that point the team would likely look to move a player or two. If they could trade Derozan for an expiring for example that would clear 35 minutes up for young guards and forwards for the last 20 plus games AND you clear all that money off the books to take care of Keon/ make other moves next year.
Click to expand...

I'm going to LMAO when the Kings start the season 14 W - 6 L and in the top 4 (before Keegan comes back) and are on pace to make the playoffs with this squad! :cool:
 
The_Jamal said:
And here's the key point. We don't know. And we should be trying to figure out what a season of 1600+ minutes for Devin Carter/Nique look like. What do IJ/Maxime do with 1000+ minutes off the bench? We should see what 30+ MPG for Keon looks like. We should see what prioritizing Keegan getting 15+ FGA looks like. If the organizational directive is to never let these guys see the floor, develop and "learn on the job" so to speak then we're never giving them a chance to actually take a potential leap into being a long-term starter or even a star. Hell, what more does Keon need to do to prove he's an NBA starter and he's still going to be fighting for minutes this season.

Say Russ plays 70 games this year at 20 MPG. That's 1400 minutes of floor time that could be going to finding out what any of our under 25's potentially have going forward in a consistent rotation role. Just horrendous.
Click to expand...
Which of the under 25s were going to play point guard again? Ellis is not a pg, Carter is not a pg, Nique is not a pg. Amazing we had a team with so many guards but not one legit back up pg. Russ fills a need. A simple trade would open up minutes for Keon and Nique. DD and Carter need to go. I dont care if its for a bowl of soup.
 
jayfly said:
Which of the under 25s were going to play point guard again? Ellis is not a pg, Carter is not a pg, Nique is not a pg. Amazing we had a team with so many guards but not one legit back up pg. Russ fills a need. A simple trade would open up minutes for Keon and Nique. DD and Carter need to go. I dont care if its for a bowl of soup.
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Talking to the wrong fella, I don't care one iota about positions.

Or let's put it this way. I'd rather Carter put 1600 minutes on tape of him actually proving he can't be a lead ball-handler rather than just people saying it without any real evidence behind the claim. I know our defense would certainly be better with 1600 Devin Carter minutes.
 
Insomniacal Fan said:
Based on the poll at the end of the offseason here, and only including people who voted in both polls; here you go!

View attachment 14393

Names withheld generally, but I fall into the intersection (I think we should be rebuilding, and I think the Westbrook signing is good.)

In my mind, the Kings have already committed to NOT rebuilding this season, by not trading away our vets that might have some value on the trade market (Monk, Sabonis...maybe DDR) Maybe Perry tried and failed to get enough value, or maybe there really is a drive from ownership to compete for a play-in spot (I'm betting on the former)

Failing to achieve the best result of rebuilding, we ought to be fully committed to our plan B of trying to make the play-in. I may not get what I want, but at least somebody will be happy that the org is still trying to compete instead of tank. You win guys
Click to expand...
I think it’s been pretty well established at this point that Malik doesn’t really have any trade value thanks to the salary cap apron situation. Sabonis and Deebo for all the consternation about them both appear to like it in Sacramento, hence Perry apparently deciding to give this core another go.
 
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