Well--the Kings ARE a playoff-quality team, YES?!
- Thread starter Mozart
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kupman
Starter
I don't know about the playoffs because it is so dependent on how the other teams fair for the rest of the season. My eyes are just on the Kings and my hope for them is that they reach the .500 mark before the end of Feb and finish the season with 45 or more wins.
If they do this it means that they have played very well and have made significant strides in becoming a stronger team during the season.
"rebuild" by playing better.
If they do this it means that they have played very well and have made significant strides in becoming a stronger team during the season.
"rebuild" by playing better.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I remember the year the Warriors won the championship. No one predicted what they would do that year. They had one superstar in Rick Barry and a lot of people that no remembers today. They barely made the playoff's and then went on a streak all the way to the championship. It might never happen again, but anything is possible.
Having your top 3 players all miss 15+ games...those previous stats are all MOOT. This is a DIFFERENT team than what we saw the first 2.5 months of the season.
They don't have a different record.
Sure they do, this group is now 3-1 since the return of Bibby/Artest. That's a .750 winning percentage before then the previous team was well below .500. Going forward is all that matters. We won't be the 1-2-3 seed and probably not the 4-5-6 seed either. But if we get in at a 6-7-8 that's all we would need and it's a new season at that point. Sure we play a tough team early, but if you knock them off then you're set to continue on. You got to beat that top team eventually.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
A) we have played 4 East teams.
B) New Jersey and Detroit have been spiraling
C) we have already used up 20 of our 30 games against the East this year, and in fact our record is considerably padded by the fact that we have thus far played 20 against the East (11-9), 20 against the West (7-13). Rest of the season? 10 against the East, 32 against the West.
B) New Jersey and Detroit have been spiraling
C) we have already used up 20 of our 30 games against the East this year, and in fact our record is considerably padded by the fact that we have thus far played 20 against the East (11-9), 20 against the West (7-13). Rest of the season? 10 against the East, 32 against the West.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
It is moot that we have 10 teams ahead of us and that the #8 seed this year seems destined to win 47 games? (even if the Warriors falter, Utah and the Rockets are right there to pick up the slack).
That would only be relevant if the other thirty-six games didn't count... But they do. So it's not.
GoGoGadget
All-Star
I don't agree that the Kings are a playoff quality team. Not by a long shot.
But, even if I did, they sure as hell aren't a finals quality team, so where's the point in making the playoffs?
I know that the instinctual response for many (for most?) is that playoffs = ooohh yippee!! However, we're talking about a team that is still just a few years removed from legitimate title contention and has been sliding, but has not yet fully rebuilt. While getting bumped in the first round would mean a better season record than last year, it wouldn't actually indicate ANY progress for a team in our situation. Just more of the same.
But, even if I did, they sure as hell aren't a finals quality team, so where's the point in making the playoffs?
I know that the instinctual response for many (for most?) is that playoffs = ooohh yippee!! However, we're talking about a team that is still just a few years removed from legitimate title contention and has been sliding, but has not yet fully rebuilt. While getting bumped in the first round would mean a better season record than last year, it wouldn't actually indicate ANY progress for a team in our situation. Just more of the same.
kupman
Starter
Yet, our strength of schedule is at .522 (season win/loss percentage of team's opponents) and only the Raptors have a higher SOS at .529. This would run against the "padded" schedule theory.
We have also demonstrated that we are fully capable of beating the best teams in the league.
Based upon who the Kings have beaten, Id say they are a quality caliber team.
That being said, why trade anybody? What are you going to get for artest? Equal pay, which means an avg player in return or 2 crappy players. Artest is not avg, so keep him.
Trade Bibby for what? You certainly arent going to get quality in return. And since the salaries have to be close, you are not going to get a player making 13 mill a year that is producing, you will get a player making 13 million that is sucking, and why would we want that.
Just clearing cap room doesnt really help. It is rare to get a quality player in free agency as you can not go over the cap to sign them. So huge impact player will be demanding big bucks, not many people have that much cap space. When was the last time a free agent signed a 100 million dollar deal with a NEW team?
At this point, I say keep em all, play out the season and see what happens. I think this team CAN make the playoffs. They need to continue to beat the weaker teams and pull off some occasional wins against teams that are "better" then we are.
Go Kings
That being said, why trade anybody? What are you going to get for artest? Equal pay, which means an avg player in return or 2 crappy players. Artest is not avg, so keep him.
Trade Bibby for what? You certainly arent going to get quality in return. And since the salaries have to be close, you are not going to get a player making 13 mill a year that is producing, you will get a player making 13 million that is sucking, and why would we want that.
Just clearing cap room doesnt really help. It is rare to get a quality player in free agency as you can not go over the cap to sign them. So huge impact player will be demanding big bucks, not many people have that much cap space. When was the last time a free agent signed a 100 million dollar deal with a NEW team?
At this point, I say keep em all, play out the season and see what happens. I think this team CAN make the playoffs. They need to continue to beat the weaker teams and pull off some occasional wins against teams that are "better" then we are.
Go Kings
So have the Bobcats. They suck, too, but at least they're moving in the right direction.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
So, at this point in time, what would you rather do? We're locked into a 10th-14th draft pick at this point. Even if we dump Bibby, Artest and Miller, we're not going to catch the tankers who have a half-season lead on us at this point. And besides, Beno/Salmons/Martin/Garcia have proven that they can still ball without Bibby/Artest, and Theus has shown he has no intention of throwing games intentionally. It's the price we already paid for playing on and increasing our vet's values, which have ballooned significantly.
We're unlikely to make the playoffs. We're even less unlikely to get a top pick this year. So, brace yourselves because no matter what Petrie does for the rest of the year, our destiny is Spencer Hawes part 2.
GoGoGadget
All-Star
What would I rather do?
I'd rather hit the big rewind button and go back to the offseason and actually get something done so that we wouldn't be in this position right now. I'd rather watch the team, and those in charge, start making some aggressive moves instead of sitting around and waiting to see what happens. That's what I'd rather.
But, I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. So at this point I'd say it's time to start making deals for youth, draft picks, and expiring contracts so that we can work towards having some actual flexibility. So that maybe, just maybe, we position ourselves to be the ones making the moves, rather than the ones reacting to the moves everyone else is making.
Without agreeing or disagreeing with your statement, I would like to add that making the playoffs does do one thing - it puts money into the pockets of the Maloofs. And, from that standpoint only, it would arguably have some value.
kupman
Starter
At 9 games below .500 and in the bottom half of the Least, I am not too envious of the Bobcats. But hey, at least they look good on paper.
Jerryaki
Starter
what i'd like to see is this analysis applied to the celtics. sales records this season indicate that celtics merchandise have jumped to the top of the league, and i am assuming that they are selling out well for home games. i'd like to see whether or not having one playoff series is really that much more beneficial financially than having a winning team that's a title contender (adjusted for net present value).
This time last season, we were the same amount of games better than the Bobcats. Come the end of the season, we had the same record. We aren't as good as we look right now (which, honestly, isn't that good to begin with), and they aren't as bad.
The money I'm talking about is what the team earns from TV revenues, etc. which can actually put a team into the black. Having a team like the current Celtics is totally different as they're most likely not worrying about the bottom line right now.
As far as trying to figure out if one playoff series is better than "a winning team that's a title contender," that's just silly. (No offense meant at all...) Of course it's not better but it's not the choice right now.
Gary
All-Star
Trading Artest for a draft pick is viable. I would do it because we need a PF, and PG. PG because of the possibility of trading Bibby, and not wanting to only have one PG in Beno. Even if it was a 15-20 pick We could still get Love, and Augustine type players.
That's where I agree. I think Bibby should stay in his starting role while he is still under contract, and Beno should fill our "Bobby Jackson" role which he has already done nicely..
Agree again... It doesn't help when you have a GM who goes out and spends every MLE you have on guys like Salmons, and Moore. Predicting future cap space w/ Geoff Petrie just isn't the right thing to do since he spends what space we have every year.
Hrm.. Don't agree with that. If we can get a draft pick somewhere in the 15-20 range than Bibby is expendable since we all know Petrie would use the picks on a PG, and a PF. At least I would hope so. We are not a playoff team. Not yet, but I like the direction we are going.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Yeah, and I'd rather hit the rewind button into the 03 series against Dallas and prevent Webber from getting injured.
At this point, that'll lead us to another mid lotto draft pick. Unless we trade Martin/Garcia/Salmons/Beno too. I don't see it getting better next year either.
Jerryaki
Starter
none taken. but from the perspective that you brought up, i think it's a valid question: is it better financially to have one down year followed by a good year, or two so-so years? if the quantified solution measured by net income is "having so-so years is still better than ever having a down year followed by a good year," then we can see what the maloofs incentives are, and once you know their incentives, well then you can explain their actions.
The Hammer
All-Star
So propose me some aggressive deals that get us youth, expirings, and draft picks that other teams might do, and that make sense for us.
I think you're making an erroneous initial premise. You're assuming the Maloofs have consistent incentives and that they're logical and definable. I don't accept that premise.
I think the Maloofs are emotional and mercurial. They want the Kings to win...now and in the future. They make decisions based on emotions at times when they should not do so and panic too easily when they should just let things play out. And, at the other end of the spectrum, they drag their feet in the minds of many rather than accept the inevitable and make the first cut deep, so to speak, to get it over with.
As owners, the Maloofs are more like excitable funs than cool-headed businessmen. Is that bad? Not necessarily but it certainly can give you a lot of headaches if you're looking for logic in their actions.
It IS their team. If some people cannot stand how they run it, then they have even more headaches. It's like my love of the 49ers and hatred of Dr. and Mrs. York. I have to put aside one to continue the other.
I hope that makes sense.
Jerryaki
Starter
^^^ if your premises are true, then i want new owners. 
at least if it was the financial angle, then people could have understood the motives, and i would've at least respected their business decisions. instead, the success of the team depends on their whims.
excitable fans who want to win now and in the future without proper preparations? we have idiot owner-fans.
at least if it was the financial angle, then people could have understood the motives, and i would've at least respected their business decisions. instead, the success of the team depends on their whims.excitable fans who want to win now and in the future without proper preparations? we have idiot owner-fans.
Mike0476
Starter
I like the direction our team is going in, however, both Artest and Bibby do not figure into our plans for the future. We have a nice young core of Martin, Garcia, Douby, Hawes, and Udrih (if we can resign him) that we should continue to build around.
Salmons should stick around too as he's only 28 and at a decent price for a player who can play multiple positions as well as defend. Miller has played his way back to his old self and I don't mind keeping him around in the Vlade type role. Moore can stick around because he'll be on his way out too eventually and for now he's the best we have at the PF position.
If the Kings can trade Artest, Bibby, Thomas and Abdur-Rahim for young promising players, expiring contracts and draft picks, let's do it. We already saw how well our team has played without them. Let's keep this youth movement going in the right direction.
If we some how make the playoffs, then so be it. But if we don't I won't mind missing out for another year. It's better than what we went through during the early years.
Salmons should stick around too as he's only 28 and at a decent price for a player who can play multiple positions as well as defend. Miller has played his way back to his old self and I don't mind keeping him around in the Vlade type role. Moore can stick around because he'll be on his way out too eventually and for now he's the best we have at the PF position.
If the Kings can trade Artest, Bibby, Thomas and Abdur-Rahim for young promising players, expiring contracts and draft picks, let's do it. We already saw how well our team has played without them. Let's keep this youth movement going in the right direction.
If we some how make the playoffs, then so be it. But if we don't I won't mind missing out for another year. It's better than what we went through during the early years.
Trying to make the playoffs this season and keeping Bibby just in case is a classic case of "throwing good money after bad." I see it all the time in my line of work. People who made poor decisions due to lack of understanding continue to make poor decisions out of desperation, when it's clear to outsiders that all hope is lost and they should just let go and move forward. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and look to the future.
We cannot win a playoff series, much less a championship, with the team we have right now. Even if all eight of our regular contributors (Martin, Artest, Bibby, Beno, Miller, Moore, Garcia, Salmons) play their absolute best ball every single night for the rest of the season, we are still simply not good enough to compete, especially in the Western conference. Unless you have a plan to get Stern to realign with us in the East, then it's pretty much pointless to keep trying to do something with the team as it's currently comprised.
Arby's Roast Beef
Starter
The West is ten deep this year, with Houston recovering and Utah bouncing back, it's hard to fathom, no matter how well the Kings are playing right now, whether they'll make the playoffs. I'll take a modicum of pride in saying that being competitive in the West means automatic playoffs in the East, and while we may still make the playoffs, the fact that we're improved our team dynamics and established an identity that was completely invisible last year is already a moral victory unto itself. Reggie Theus and silent move-maker Geoff Petrie, with his swoops upon Beno Udrih and Dahntay Jones, deserve some credit for that.
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