Welcome Vince Carter

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#61
Just don't get it. There goes a chunk of minutes from Bogdan, Malachi, Temple, Jackson or whoever else. I really don't want to watch a bunch of old washed up guys take away valuable playing time from the younger players. People are taking this whole mentor thing way too far. It's not necessary to have a mentor taking up 25min a night at each and every position. We already have enough on the team. I don't want to watch that crap all year.
You cannot possibly be serious. How do you know how many minutes a night he'll play? :rolleyes:

Some people (not necessarily you, ESP47) just need to lighten up. The vets we've gotten are on short-term deals which gives the kids a chance to learn from some of the best and then, when they're ready, take their places.

Signing Vince Carter is another sign that the image of the Kings throughout the league is changing. You think he would have come here otherwise?

I'm excited and cannot wait until the pre-season starts. Those of you who are so upset, confused, etc. just need to take a deep breath and relax IMHO. This isn't the old front office. What's going on right now is laying the foundation for a very good future. Have a little faith. It won't hurt.
 

Mike

Active Member
#64
It's another solid veteran signing by the Kings. I'm actually surprised Carter has decided to come here rather than get himself a deal on a contender to try and get that ring. With that said, he can be a good presence in the locker room and still contribute on the court. So it's a good move and adds to our bench.
 

The_Jamal

Well-Known Member
#66
One thing I think is getting lost is ZBO/Hill/Carter all know what they've signed up for; to be the on-court mentors and teachers for the youngin's. Thats' their main role, not to come in here and win games. So if Vince doesn't play for a 3-game stretch here or there, so what? Or if the same happens to ZBO. Even George Hill should know the deal that this team is will be given to Fox, it's just a matter of when.

As a fan, I freaking LOVE getting to see Vince in a Kings uniform. All these guys have to be stoked to get to play with a legend they grew up watching and admiring. I know I would be. A Kings VC jersey might be in my future...

Minutes aren't really a concern either. Hard for me to see ZBO or Vince getting more than 15-20 MPG off the bench. Or if they get the "vet" start, it's still only going to be for 15-20 MPG.
 

The_Jamal

Well-Known Member
#67
Also, I think if we surrounded Cousins with vets like these MUCH sooner (Temple/Carter/ZBO, etc), could have lead us to salavge that relationship and help him grow up on the court a bit. He never really had a vet player who commanded respect and would tell him to shut up when needed. Glad our young fellas have that kind of player leadership now.
 

ESP47

Well-Known Member
#68
I completely disagree with this. The entire point for any team in any sport is to field the very best team they can. You play the best players regardless of their age, what position they were drafted or how they were acquired. While every front office hopes their youth develops and grows to a point where they are the marquee players on the team, that's not always gonna be the case.

Playing a young player over a vet when the vet is better is somewhat akin to playing your 1st round pick over your 2nd round pick when the 2nd rounder has proven to be better. Why would you do that?
When the Kings drafted Jimmer and Isaiah in 2011, guess which player played more? The better player. End of story.
When you are in a rebuild year, developing the young talent is the #1 priority. This isn't a playoff run year so the normal rules don't have to apply. It's a new thing around here where everyone keeps saying that you somehow must beat out a veteran in practice to get on the court. I don't remember a single person here last year saying "I sure hope Skal/Malachi/Papa beat out so and so in practice before they got on the court, otherwise it could cause a team mutiny!". No, the narrative was more like "I'm tired of watching these veterans play, get them off the court and get the young guys out there so we can see what they can do". Now all the sudden everyone seems to want a veteran blocking each player again. Well you're going to get what you asked for so don't get mad when you're watching a bunch of veterans play the bulk of the minutes each night. I don't recall many people here being elated with Barnes playing a bunch of minutes each night while Malachi was on the bench. I don't recall people wanting Tolliver playing more than Skal even though he was more effective most of the time. I don't recall people wanting Koufos playing over Papa even though he was more effective with a messed up finger. But now all the sudden its the new in vogue philosophy to play vets over these guys at every position.

Sports aren't so cut and dry. Veterans get extra playing time. Sometimes rookies that are big investments get extra playing time. It all depends on the situation. It's not nearly as simple as whoever wins in practice gets the most playing time on the court. Teams need to develop players and sometimes it takes the big game experience to develop them. Many times NFL teams play their rookie QB right from the start even if the backup is better because they know the rookie has the higher ceiling and they want to develop them and prepare them for the speed of the game as quickly as possible. I think people are just feeding off of the Chris Paul and Doc Rivers thing where Doc played Austin when the other players thought he shouldn't. Nepotism was the main reason for the angst there and in the end Austin Rivers has actually turned out to be a pretty solid basketball player.
 

King Baller

Well-Known Member
#69
Also, I think if we surrounded Cousins with vets like these MUCH sooner (Temple/Carter/ZBO, etc), could have lead us to salavge that relationship and help him grow up on the court a bit. He never really had a vet player who commanded respect and would tell him to shut up when needed. Glad our young fellas have that kind of player leadership now.
I think you are right. If Zbo had been a King along with Joerger as Coach Boogie's carreer path would have looked much different. But what is done is done. I like all the Kings Vet moves.The Young Players will learn from these guys in a few minutes what would take years if they were thrown to the wolves. As someone who has lived a little bit myself I have learned to value experience. Having an old hand around can save young ones many hard learned lessons.
 

Sac.Kings

Well-Known Member
#70
Also, I think if we surrounded Cousins with vets like these MUCH sooner (Temple/Carter/ZBO, etc), could have lead us to salavge that relationship and help him grow up on the court a bit. He never really had a vet player who commanded respect and would tell him to shut up when needed. Glad our young fellas have that kind of player leadership now.
True, but at the same time we never had 50 million dollars before that we literally HAD to spend.
 

The Hammer

Well-Known Member
#71
Also, I think if we surrounded Cousins with vets like these MUCH sooner (Temple/Carter/ZBO, etc), could have lead us to salavge that relationship and help him grow up on the court a bit. He never really had a vet player who commanded respect and would tell him to shut up when needed. Glad our young fellas have that kind of player leadership now.
If he didn't get it by then, he wasn't gonna get it with other vets.

I love Cousins. Freakin love the guy.

But the BODY LANGUAGE KILLED HIM.

He just didn't get it. You cannot continually disrespect the officials with body language and expect things to go well for you. The officials will (rightly) get back at you with calls and no calls. Cousins was stuck at age 14 mentally and there's obviously something from his past or not having a father that is holding him back. This is the cold hard truth. I was much more on his side until I found out that he had been offered counselling, then requested to go to counselling, then basically required to go to counselling, and he refused every bit of it. I'm sorry but you cannot help someone who is unwilling to get help. I wish him the best.
 

funkykingston

Well-Known Member
#72
When you are in a rebuild year, developing the young talent is the #1 priority. This isn't a playoff run year so the normal rules don't have to apply. It's a new thing around here where everyone keeps saying that you somehow must beat out a veteran in practice to get on the court. I don't remember a single person here last year saying "I sure hope Skal/Malachi/Papa beat out so and so in practice before they got on the court, otherwise it could cause a team mutiny!". No, the narrative was more like "I'm tired of watching these veterans play, get them off the court and get the young guys out there so we can see what they can do". Now all the sudden everyone seems to want a veteran blocking each player again. Well you're going to get what you asked for so don't get mad when you're watching a bunch of veterans play the bulk of the minutes each night. I don't recall many people here being elated with Barnes playing a bunch of minutes each night while Malachi was on the bench. I don't recall people wanting Tolliver playing more than Skal even though he was more effective most of the time. I don't recall people wanting Koufos playing over Papa even though he was more effective with a messed up finger. But now all the sudden its the new in vogue philosophy to play vets over these guys at every position.

Sports aren't so cut and dry. Veterans get extra playing time. Sometimes rookies that are big investments get extra playing time. It all depends on the situation. It's not nearly as simple as whoever wins in practice gets the most playing time on the court. Teams need to develop players and sometimes it takes the big game experience to develop them. Many times NFL teams play their rookie QB right from the start even if the backup is better because they know the rookie has the higher ceiling and they want to develop them and prepare them for the speed of the game as quickly as possible. I think people are just feeding off of the Chris Paul and Doc Rivers thing where Doc played Austin when the other players thought he shouldn't. Nepotism was the main reason for the angst there and in the end Austin Rivers has actually turned out to be a pretty solid basketball player.
Last year the goal was to make the playoffs. This year the goal is to develop the young guys.

I have no idea how that will relate to playing time but given the strides that Skal and Papa made as well as the promise Malachi showed in glimpses before getting hurt and how well Buddy played after the trade, I have faith in Joerger and his staff. Not to mention Darrick Martin in Reno.

I think Hill is clearly the best option at PG and will likely start. Beyond that? I think positions are up for grabs.

If I had to guess I'd say the starters are:

Hill
Hield
Carter
Labissiere
Koufos

Though if Jackson or Richardson or Bogdanovic show enough I think the preference would be to bring VC off the bench as he's not in a position to play more than 20-24 mpg.
 

ESP47

Well-Known Member
#74
Last year the goal was to make the playoffs. This year the goal is to develop the young guys.

I have no idea how that will relate to playing time but given the strides that Skal and Papa made as well as the promise Malachi showed in glimpses before getting hurt and how well Buddy played after the trade, I have faith in Joerger and his staff. Not to mention Darrick Martin in Reno.

I think Hill is clearly the best option at PG and will likely start. Beyond that? I think positions are up for grabs.

If I had to guess I'd say the starters are:

Hill
Hield
Carter
Labissiere
Koufos

Though if Jackson or Richardson or Bogdanovic show enough I think the preference would be to bring VC off the bench as he's not in a position to play more than 20-24 mpg.
I agree with your starting lineup except I'd put Randolph in there over Skal. He's a Joerger guy so I think he will be starting. Now the bench gets a little hairy. With ZBo and Skal at the 4 and Koufos and WCS at the 5, that leaves Papa on the outside looking in unless a Koufos trade is made. Then you have Temple off the bench who could be taking a good bulk of minutes at the 2 or 3, leaving Malachi most likely as the guy on the outside looking in. I thought Malachi proved enough in Reno last year to earn himself solid minutes on the squad. After that the rest of the rookies are most likely in Reno.

Reno's lineup could possibly be:

Mason
Richardson
Jackson
Giles
Papa

Which to me would be much more exciting to watch than the handful of old guys we have up at the NBA level. I will probably be going to my first game in Reno this year if they have a bunch of the young guys playing there at the same time.
 

upinsmoke

Well-Known Member
#75
Also, I think if we surrounded Cousins with vets like these MUCH sooner (Temple/Carter/ZBO, etc), could have lead us to salavge that relationship and help him grow up on the court a bit. He never really had a vet player who commanded respect and would tell him to shut up when needed. Glad our young fellas have that kind of player leadership now.
Zbo would have straightened DMC up or knocked him out. Whichever comes first.
 

allrightythen

Well-Known Member
#76
I agree with your starting lineup except I'd put Randolph in there over Skal. He's a Joerger guy so I think he will be starting. Now the bench gets a little hairy. With ZBo and Skal at the 4 and Koufos and WCS at the 5, that leaves Papa on the outside looking in unless a Koufos trade is made. Then you have Temple off the bench who could be taking a good bulk of minutes at the 2 or 3, leaving Malachi most likely as the guy on the outside looking in. I thought Malachi proved enough in Reno last year to earn himself solid minutes on the squad. After that the rest of the rookies are most likely in Reno.

Reno's lineup could possibly be:

Mason
Richardson
Jackson
Giles
Papa

Which to me would be much more exciting to watch than the handful of old guys we have up at the NBA level. I will probably be going to my first game in Reno this year if they have a bunch of the young guys playing there at the same time.
I think this year ends up similar to last year where the rookies (sans Bogdanovic and Fox) spend some time in Reno to start the year and then work their way onto the team as the year moves along. We'll still get plenty of youth with Fox, Bogs, Malachi, Skal, Buddy, WCS, and maybe Georgios all getting playing time early. After watching them bring the young guys along last year I'm going to defer to this coaching staff as they seem to have a good pulse on when guys are ready or need to start getting NBA minutes. Rookie contracts are at minimum 4 years (for 1st rounders) so we have plenty of time to develop them and give them a chance to play.

I like the Vince Carter deal. It's a one year deal so it maintains flexibility and he's not really a big minute guy anymore so we still have minutes available for young guys to fight for.
 

Kingster

Well-Known Member
#77
Another nice signing. Carter is a well respected vet around the league. He'll be another strong mature voice leading the way for the youngins and it's not in any way affecting the Kings' ability to resign their young group down the line. I would think Carter might actually feel more comfortable at the 3 these days than the 2 because defensively he'd rather deal with strength than quickness. He should be a good mentor for Jackson and the the 2s on this team. It is finally obvious to the blind that Divac takes seriously the word, "culture." Carter, Hill, ZBO, are voices that should command respect in the locker room and on the court.

Both ZBO and Carter aren't going to even want to play a lot of minutes on this team, probably at most 15 minutes/game for each; I think all this talk about veterans "taking" minutes from the young is a non-issue, more of something for the talking heads to chatter about, but has very little reality to it. How many minutes do you think ZBO and Carter are going to play on back-to-backs? :) The only possible position where "taking minutes" does become a reality is at point guard, where Hill, if healthy, could be playing a lot of minutes. But considering that point guard is the toughest position to play in the NBA, that Fox is only 19 years old and that he has plenty to learn, I just don't see that it's a big deal. If Fox gets 18 minutes and Hill 30 minutes a game, Fox is going to be learning plenty over an 82 game season. And even that scenario assumes that Hill remains healthy for all 82 games, which probably won't happen.
 

ESP47

Well-Known Member
#80
Another nice signing. Carter is a well respected vet around the league. He'll be another strong mature voice leading the way for the youngins and it's not in any way affecting the Kings' ability to resign their young group down the line. I would think Carter might actually feel more comfortable at the 3 these days than the 2 because defensively he'd rather deal with strength than quickness. He should be a good mentor for Jackson and the the 2s on this team. It is finally obvious to the blind that Divac takes seriously the word, "culture." Carter, Hill, ZBO, are voices that should command respect in the locker room and on the court.

Both ZBO and Carter aren't going to even want to play a lot of minutes on this team, probably at most 15 minutes/game for each; I think all this talk about veterans "taking" minutes from the young is a non-issue, more of something for the talking heads to chatter about, but has very little reality to it. How many minutes do you think ZBO and Carter are going to play on back-to-backs? :) The only possible position where "taking minutes" does become a reality is at point guard, where Hill, if healthy, could be playing a lot of minutes. But considering that point guard is the toughest position to play in the NBA, that Fox is only 19 years old and that he has plenty to learn, I just don't see that it's a big deal. If Fox gets 18 minutes and Hill 30 minutes a game, Fox is going to be learning plenty over an 82 game season. And even that scenario assumes that Hill remains healthy for all 82 games, which probably won't happen.
You sure about that? Both guys played 25min/gm on a playoff team last year.
 

Mike

Active Member
#81
Also, I think if we surrounded Cousins with vets like these MUCH sooner (Temple/Carter/ZBO, etc), could have lead us to salavge that relationship and help him grow up on the court a bit. He never really had a vet player who commanded respect and would tell him to shut up when needed. Glad our young fellas have that kind of player leadership now.
I doubt it. I suppose had we put these calibre of veterans on the same team then perhaps it might have helped him because he came into the league young and immature, however Cousins strikes me as the type of person that is always going to be hard to control due to how he conducts himself on and off the court. That's not to say he isn't a damn good basketball player, but he's volatile and those guys are very tough to handle.
 

Spike

Well-Known Member
#83
I doubt it. I suppose had we put these calibre of veterans on the same team then perhaps it might have helped him because he came into the league young and immature, however Cousins strikes me as the type of person that is always going to be hard to control due to how he conducts himself on and off the court. That's not to say he isn't a damn good basketball player, but he's volatile and those guys are very tough to handle.
I think ZBO saying, "shut the hell up, kid" would have gone a long way.
 

Kingz19

Well-Known Member
#87
Just don't get it. There goes a chunk of minutes from Bogdan, Malachi, Temple, Jackson or whoever else. I really don't want to watch a bunch of old washed up guys take away valuable playing time from the younger players. People are taking this whole mentor thing way too far. It's not necessary to have a mentor taking up 25min a night at each and every position. We already have enough on the team. I don't want to watch that crap all year.
Vince Carter won't be playing 25 minutes. He played 2 seasons under Joerger and averaged 16 minutes both seasons. That was with a Memphis team that has always been thin at the wing positions(especially offensively) and didn't have any real prospects. Still only 16 minutes for Carter.

Fizdale extended his minutes because Memphis got even thinner at the wing positions last offseason with no real prospects demanding a look..and their SG acquisition(Parsons) season ended early.

Carter is 15 minutes at the most this year and I'm not sure it's even a guarantee he starts. I can still see Bogdan and Buddy being our starting wings if both have great camps and preseason. Maybe even Garrett Temple is still in play to start at SF.

Bench needs leadership as well.

It's not allll about mentorship. It's about making the kids earn their minutes. I say good plan. Hundreds of rosters in history have been built with stocking up on high draft picks. Very few are successful even if a lot of those picks end up being successful individually.

This is s smart play by our org. Bringing in veterans for the youngins to compete with and to take notes from...all of which are undoubtedly still NBA minutes worthy, even Carter.

If Jackson can earn minutes over Carter as a rookie then that's a very good sign for the future of Jackson. Same with Fox maybe eating into Hills minutes. Papa, Skal, Willie, and Giles have to compete with each other in order to compete with KK and Z-Bo. They'll get their oppurtunities. The vets won't phone it in either because of the presence of hungry youths.

I'm personally excited to watch it. We've seen a bunch of bumbling brats run the asylum before and THAT is what is "crap I don't want to watch all year". All it does is make fans become disillusioned about the future when we see kids play longer than they should and embarrass themselves...and we know it does the kids no favors.

Don't worry...there will be plenty of youth movement to go around. Vlade, Perry, and Joerger are trying something different. This creates a selfless culture and creates a system where a team is 2 deep at every position and nothing is for granted. This is essential for a small market team to not only contend, but to have a sustained success.
 

Vladizzle

Active Member
#88
VCs coaching will be his best aspect. He's helped turn a lot of young talents into smarter players. Remember Devin Harris?
Exciting times
 

ppine

Well-Known Member
#90
Vince is 40. He is in great shape and has a spectacular attitiude for helping younger players in practice, on the bench, in games and in the locker room. You cannot expect him to play that many minutes night after night. If he starts it will probably kind of ceremonial.