We need Kevin back (merged)

Despite what some people have been lead to believe, Kevin is not a ball dominating player. He does not need the ball to be effective. He made a name for himself by coming off cuts, screens, curls, and knocking down the open 3.

Last year, we had him be the focal point of the offense, but not necessarily dominating the ball. In fact, when given the ball in iso situations with the defense keyed in, he would sometimes be ineffective if he did not get to the line.

Can Kevin play w/Tyreke? Yes, easily. I envision draw and kicks, and a spread offense w/Martin on the wing. Tyreke is drawing a lot of attention. It is hard to double team a wing player, but some teams are looking to do that. To beat a double team, you need shooters, and Kmart is a very good one. He has no issue jacking up 3s, and his rate is good.

Will Kevin play defense? He will have to. This team is good enough, and clicking enough to shut him out if he does not. It is no longer Kevin's team. Kevin is the defacto second option, as we really lack another true "option" besides Tyreke, but he will have to play d. His rebounding numbers were up this year before the injury, and he looked as if he was trying more. The identity of this team has grown w/out Martin. I think he'll be able to adapt to it. He won't score 30 a night anymore, but I think we have a 40-45 pt backcourt (which would give us the highest scoring backcourt in today's game, save for perhaps Westbook/Harden, Jennings/Redd if he can return to form, and Curry/Ellis).

Answer: Help
 
Now, we know what Kevin Martin is about. Dominating the ball,




Im sorry, but this is just garbage. If anything I was begging for him to shoot more in the previous 2 seasons. Some of you are trying to turn Kevin into some kind of player that needs the ball at all times to be happy, that just isnt the case.

Until Kmart returns and plays on this squad for 30-40 games, none of us know exactly how this is goingto go. Oh maybe some of you do know...and I bet you are also the same people who said Rubio should have been the Kings pick.

Cant we just wait until the man returns before we want to ship off the Kings best player the past several years. I am all for trade talk, but enough of the comments from people making Martin out to be some selfish ball hog, he is neither.
 
Rather have a player back for an additional option than being on the injured list.

I rather have the option to have one of the top offensive player on my team to play around with than no player.

But Kevin coming back will hurt us? Hurt our chance of making it to the playoff? :confused:

We're still developing, unless you think he's going to kill Evans development than I can see it hurt us. But I highly doubt it because West is coaching this team and KMart have to fit in...not the other way around. He's not Webber.
 
reid1boys said:
Now, we know what Kevin Martin is about. Dominating the ball,




Im sorry, but this is just garbage. If anything I was begging for him to shoot more in the previous 2 seasons. Some of you are trying to turn Kevin into some kind of player that needs the ball at all times to be happy, that just isnt the case.

Until Kmart returns and plays on this squad for 30-40 games, none of us know exactly how this is goingto go. Oh maybe some of you do know...and I bet you are also the same people who said Rubio should have been the Kings pick.

Cant we just wait until the man returns before we want to ship off the Kings best player the past several years. I am all for trade talk, but enough of the comments from people making Martin out to be some selfish ball hog, he is neither.
Click to expand...

A lot of people just ignore his inability to play any defense or be physical, whatsoever.
 
A lot of people just ignore his inability to play any defense or be physical, whatsoever.


what does this have to do with your comment that he is all about dominating the ball??
Some of you make it like Martin runs away from the person with the ball. In many cases, a fan sees what they want to see, and it is like the self fulfilling prophecy.
 
rhythmless said:
Despite what some people have been lead to believe, Kevin is not a ball dominating player. He does not need the ball to be effective. He made a name for himself by coming off cuts, screens, curls, and knocking down the open 3.
Click to expand...

Kevin is not a ball dominating player. This is true. But he is a shot dominating player (and I don't even want ot hear from the made up stats crew -- he's 20 possessions a night out of the offense, and you only get about 80). And even moreso, what makes him a big scorer, that very off the ball game, means he is a time dominant, and effort dominant (just made those terms up to describe what I am getting at here) player. A ball dominant guy keeps the ball. Yes. Bad. But a guy without ball dominant skills takes just as long or even longer to get open while you sit aournd and wait for him to pop off staggered screens and whatnot. And all those staggered screens require his teamamtes to do his work for him. A guy with reke's ball skills can pretty much just square up his guy and go, wihtout anybody's help. A guy like Kevin needs the center to quit playing offense and come help him, the PG or SG to stop and wait and then set him up wiht the pass etc.

Thinking that you can just take such a piece and slide him smoothly into what we have going on is folly. Everything changes to accomodate such a player. And its gotten us absolutely nowhere in past years. I will again state that if we had a different sort of superstar, you could insert Kevin smoothly with minimal disruption because he would already being playing a game, and at a pace, that fit the superstar's style. When you are talking about Reke, that's not true. When you are talking about all these hustling spot shooting scrappers who have helped elevate us and are now going to be squished out of the rotation by a shotmunching softie who needs to be central to the offense to make a positive contribution, it is even less so.

And one other thing -- this team plays hard. They fight, they claw. They do not flop. They do not quit on plays. And they do not lack passion. You inject that sort of thing back into a team and the engine could seize. Teams take queues from their major players. When one of them puts out less than the guys he is ahead of, its not only destructive to morale, it spreads in "if he's doing it, so can I" fashion. As long as Reke and JT are the two biggest figures on the team, the team is safe hustlewise. You change that, and it no longer is.
 
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Bricklayer said:
Kevin is not a ball dominating player. This is true. But he is a shot dominating player (and I don't even want ot hear from the made up stats crew -- he's 20 possessions a night out of the offense, and you only get about 80). And even moreso, what makes him a big scorer, that very off the ball game, means he is a time dominant, and effort dominant (just made those terms up to describe what I am getting at here) player. A ball dominant guy keeps the ball. Yes. Bad. But a guy without ball dominant skills takes just as long or even longer to get open while you sit aournd and wait for him to pop off staggered screens and whatnot. And all those staggered screens require his teamamtes to do his work for him. A guy with reke's ball skills can pretty much just square up his guy and go, wihtout anybody's help. A guy like Kevin needs the center to quit playing offense and come help him, the PG or SG to stop and wait and then set him up wiht the pass etc.

Thinking that you can just take such a piece and slide him smoothly into what we have going on is folly. Everything changes to accomodate such a player. And its gotten us absolutely nowhere in past years. I will again state that if we had a different sort of superstar, you could insert Kevin smoothly with minimal disruption because he would already being playing a game, and at a pace, that fit the superstar's style. When you are talking about Reke, that's not true. When you are talking about all these hustling spot shooting scrappers who have helped elevate us and are now going to be squished out of the rotation by a shotmunching softie who needs to be central to the offense to make a positive contribution, it is even less so.

And one other thing -- this team plays hard. They fight, they claw. They do not flop. They do not quit on plays. And they do not lack passion. You inject that sort of thing back into a team and the engine could seize. Teams take queues from their major players. When one of them puts out less than the guys he is ahead of, its not only destructive to morale, it spreads in "if he's doing it, so can I" fashion. As long as Reke and JT are the two biggest figures on the team, the team is safe hustlewise. You change that, and it no longer is.
Click to expand...

Okay, let's see if I have this right... He's a 20 possession a night guy, and he averages in excess of 20 points per game. I'm just not seeing the downside here...

I'm also going to object once again to the "lack passion" comment. Martin is energized, he's enthusiastic, he's really more than ready to come back and play with this team. To simply shrug him off as someone who lacks passion and will be destructive to morale is without basis in fact for the simple reason that pretty much everything important has changed around him and he could and I believe will surprise a lot of people, just as he has before.

Martin is not a selfish player. He's the ultimate team player, wanting to do whatever it takes to help the team. He's been put in a position for a long time where he carried the burden of the team on his shoulders and now, when he no longer will have to do that, I think he's earned the right to at least be seen playing before he's summarily dismissed.
 
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Who says he has to take up 20 possession, just because he has? He can score when the attention on Tyreke gives him the opportunities, and the defense has to pick their poison. If he's getting wide open threes and clear lanes to the basket, that's a bad thing, and there's no value to having a more diverse scorer take those possessions over a spot up shooter? Can we really count on every spot shooting role player we have to continue to shoot several points above his career average?

By the way, if we're counting scoring opportunities as FGA + FTA/2, then we have 96 possessions to go around.
 
NME said:
Who says he has to take up 20 possession, just because he has? He can score when the attention on Tyreke gives him the opportunities, and the defense has to pick their poison. If he's getting wide open threes and clear lanes to the basket, that's a bad thing, and there's no value to having a more diverse scorer take those possessions over a spot up shooter? Can we really count on every spot shooting role player we have to continue to shoot several points above his career average?

By the way, if we're counting scoring opportunities as FGA + FTA/2, then we have 96 possessions to go around.
Click to expand...


1) Yes actually we can likely count on the spot shooters shooting better, because they get incredibly open because of the attention paid to Reke.

2) And yes having a more diverse scorer shooting spot shots is better than havng a less diverse scorer shooting spot shots, EXCEPT when you use your brain and figure out that a) the more diverse scorer is costing an enormous amount of money because he is a more diverse scorer, for limited extra production if in fact he's just going to spot shoot most of the time; b) the more diverse scorer is not surprisingly goign to want to score in more diverse ways rather than just standing outside twiddling his thumbs and spot shooting, in PARTICULAR when the more diverse scorer had the entire ofense designed around him and the things he could do as recently as two months ago; and c) the more diverse scorer also has never had to do a damn thing in his life except score, because he was the more diverse scorer, and so loses you production across the board in every other category, lost production which helped make us a loser even while he was diversely scoring, and which would just be ridiculous for him as a glorified spot shooter; oh and d) when said more diverse scorer, who's more diverse scoring is largely wasted as a spot shooter, is by far your biggest piece available to bring you back something you actually DO need, i.e., a big man.
 
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Let's play stats:

Let's take an amalgram here of the guys/minutes that will most likely be replaced. Minutes from Donte, Sergio, Beno and Casspi. I don't know what the exact percentages are at the SG position, nor the exact percentages of who's time will be gutted -- I suspect Sergio and Greene, but don't know for sure. So let's just take the 4 of them, average their per minute numbers into 1 player, and see what that player has given us in 36 minutes:

Per 48s:
Omri 22.5pts 7.4reb 2.2ast 1.2stl 0.6blk 2.7TO + size/hustle/scrap
Beno 22.3pts 3.9reb 6.5ast 1.5stl 0.2blk 2.6TO + ballhandling/passing
Donte 21.2pts 6.4reb 2.7ast 1.5stl 1.7blk 3.6TO + size/defense/energy
Sergio 21.2pts 4.8reb 11.1ast 2.8stl 0.5blk 4.8TO + ballhandling/passing
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Omrentegio: 21.8pts 5.6reb 5.6ast 1.8stl 0.7blk 3.4TO
Per 36: 16.4pts 4.2reb 4.2ast 1.4stl 0.5blk 2.6TO

Now let's look at Kevin, and no, I am not going to sit here and bleat idiotically about he's a 30pt scorer or any other nonsesne, but I also am not going to completely discount it, so as with the guys above, here are Kevin's per48s for the last 4 years (including this one -- so the 5 game sample is still overrepresented):

09-10 35.1pts 6.2reb 3.0ast 2.3stl 0.2blk 1.6TO
08-09 30.9pts 4.5reb 3.4ast 1.5stl 0.2blk 3.6TO
07-08 31.3pts 5.9reb 2.8ast 1.3stl 0.1blk 2.8TO
06-07 27.6pts 5.8reb 2.9ast 1.7stl 0.2blk 2.3TO
----------------------------------------------
Totals: 31.2pts 5.6reb 3.0ast 1.7stl 0.2blk 2.6TO
Per 36: 23.4pts 4.2reb 2.2ast 1.3stl 0.2blk 1.9TO


So, in 36 min a night:
Omrentegio: 16.4pts 4.2reb 4.2ast 1.4stl 0.2blk 2.6TO
KevinMartin: 23.4pts 4.2reb 2.2ast 1.3stl 0.2blk 1.9TO

The advantage you gain with Kevin is scoring, you lose passing and defense. Except of course the whole argument of how Keivn can fit, despite almost no examples of any shoot first weenie ever having fit in this situation, is that he's not GOING to shoot that much. Really. So now the one and only advanatge he has is going to be muted. How much would you say is fair? 20.4pts a game? 19.4pts a game? 18.4? And at that point you want me to give up passing and defense (not to mention the growth of promising youth who are only going to get better) for about 2-4pts of scoring, that is going to be achevied by taking shots away from other players? And you want me to do this by inserting a player that costs twice as much as the most expensive of the players he is replacing, and TEN times as much as the cheapest (Donte)? And in the process you want me to also give up my single biggest trading chip for this honor??

Somehow I am thinking such a proposal would not fly in the trade forum.
 
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I'm with you on (d), if that opportunity presents itself to bolster the frontcourt, the talent/salary resources are better used there. What I don't buy is that Kevin returning is going to be some kind of disaster, or that there's no value in having an incredibly open KMart on the court.
 
You guys are missing the whole point. Take a break from the stats, for once. Stop looking at numbers and look at the big picture, here.

This team is winning games because of their toughness, heart, and effort.

I would not use any of those qualities to describe Kevin Martin. With that said, I personally don't believe he fits in with the vibe of this team. I'm not bashing the guy, but I'm just saying that I would rather have a solid rotation of guys who go out their and hustle every night and play scrappy rather than giving all of those minutes to kevin martin.
 
Čarolija said:
At $10 million?!

I don't think so especially considering the team's weaknesses in ither areas.
Click to expand...

His salary shouldn't determine whether or not he comes off the bench. If he fits better with this team coming off the bench, then bring him off the bench until you can trade him for another piece.
 
Mitch Richmond said:
His salary shouldn't determine whether or not he comes off the bench. If he fits better with this team coming off the bench, then bring him off the bench until you can trade him for another piece.
Click to expand...


OT:
Your avatar is the most awesome jersey of all time.


I would sell my left elbow to get one. ;)
 
Bricklayer said:
And in the process you want me to also give up my single biggest trading chip for this honor??
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not one to count that out at all. What deal is out there? I'd sign off on Noah and filler, for example, and be happy with the above plus Cisco as complements to Tyreke.

I don't disagree with the diminishing returns argument, but at other times you have given the impression that anything is worth avoiding the coming apocalypse to be wrought by Kevin's return, and that I'm not buying.
 
Mitch Richmond said:
His salary shouldn't determine whether or not he comes off the bench. If he fits better with this team coming off the bench, then bring him off the bench until you can trade him for another piece.
Click to expand...
Of course it should when you consider the salary cap and the implications that it has on building a team.

For $10 million you need a starter and a good one at that! Thats 20% of your cap tied up in a player coming off the bench. Thats just suicide!

Martin is a quality starter but might need to be one on a team that has their star at a different postion than the Kings.

If our franchise player was a C or a PF who played inside, then Martin would be a PERFECT complement to that. He would be Peja to a Webber.
 
Keep Kevin Martin Thread!

I somewhat understand why everyone wants to trade Kevin Martin (only ticket to a star starting Center).
But I say lets KEEP Kevin!
Not only does he seem like the perfect compliment to Tyreke on paper for reasons that have been repeated over and over again (non-selfish, not ball dominant, does not need a ton of touches), but I think that with the new philosophy of the team, that Kevin will improve his defensive game.

Kevin will no longer be a spectator on defense because he will want to win and he will no longer get away with it.

Also, Kevin will have more energy throughout the game to play defense now that he is not relied upon 100% to supply the offense.

And lastly, Kevin Martin will not get us Greg Oden or a Chris Bosh esque player, so I don't think it makes any sense to trade him for an ok starter at C.
 
Bricklayer said:
Thinking that you can just take such a piece and slide him smoothly into what we have going on is folly. Everything changes to accomodate such a player. And its gotten us absolutely nowhere in past years. I will again state that if we had a different sort of superstar, you could insert Kevin smoothly with minimal disruption because he would already being playing a game, and at a pace, that fit the superstar's style. When you are talking about Reke, that's not true. When you are talking about all these hustling spot shooting scrappers who have helped elevate us and are now going to be squished out of the rotation by a shotmunching softie who needs to be central to the offense to make a positive contribution, it is even less so.

And one other thing -- this team plays hard. They fight, they claw. They do not flop. They do not quit on plays. And they do not lack passion. You inject that sort of thing back into a team and the engine could seize. Teams take queues from their major players. When one of them puts out less than the guys he is ahead of, its not only destructive to morale, it spreads in "if he's doing it, so can I" fashion. As long as Reke and JT are the two biggest figures on the team, the team is safe hustlewise. You change that, and it no longer is.
Click to expand...

You advocating for him being moved does not work in the real world. Regardless of us debating how well he will fit, which I wonder myself, he will HAVE to play big minutes, and he will HAVE to take a scoring load because nobody in their right mind will trade anything valuable for a scrawny 10 mil/year off guard coming off his second injury in 2 seasons.

He will play. He will either defend or not. He will either be effective as a second banana and recipient of Tyreke breaking down the offense or not. We will be able to see that before the teams even start thinking about giving up anything valuable for Kevin.
 
Kevin will be stepping on to the court with basically an entirely different team. A super rook, a three point shooter/hustle guy, an improved pf, and possibly an inspired center. People generally adapt to their enviroment. I think you will see a different Kevin than we have seen in the past...
 
Bricklayer said:
Let's play stats:

Let's take an amalgram here of the guys/minutes that will most likely be replaced. Minutes from Donte, Sergio, Beno and Casspi. I don't know what the exact percentages are at the SG position, nor the exact percentages of who's time will be gutted -- I suspect Sergio and Greene, but don't know for sure. So let's just take the 4 of them, average their per minute numbers into 1 player, and see what that player has given us in 36 minutes:

Per 48s:
Omri 22.5pts 7.4reb 2.2ast 1.2stl 0.6blk 2.7TO + size/hustle/scrap
Beno 22.3pts 3.9reb 6.5ast 1.5stl 0.2blk 2.6TO + ballhandling/passing
Donte 21.2pts 6.4reb 2.7ast 1.5stl 1.7blk 3.6TO + size/defense/energy
Sergio 21.2pts 4.8reb 11.1ast 2.8stl 0.5blk 4.8TO + ballhandling/passing
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Omrentegio: 21.8pts 5.6reb 5.6ast 1.8stl 0.7blk 3.4TO
Per 36: 16.4pts 4.2reb 4.2ast 1.4stl 0.2blk 2.6TO

Now let's look at Kevin, and no, I am not going to sit here and bleat idiotically about he's a 30pt scorer or any other nonsesne, but I also am not going to completely discount it, so as with the guys above, here are Kevin's per48s for the last 4 years (including this one -- so the 5 game sample is still overrepresented):

09-10 35.1pts 6.2reb 3.0ast 2.3stl 0.2blk 1.6TO
08-09 30.9pts 4.5reb 3.4ast 1.5stl 0.2blk 3.6TO
07-08 31.3pts 5.9reb 2.8ast 1.3stl 0.1blk 2.8TO
06-07 27.6pts 5.8reb 2.9ast 1.7stl 0.2blk 2.3TO
----------------------------------------------
Totals: 31.2pts 5.6reb 3.0ast 1.7stl 0.2blk 2.6TO
Per 36: 23.4pts 4.2reb 2.2ast 1.3stl 0.2blk 1.9TO


So, in 36 min a night:
Omrentegio: 16.4pts 4.2reb 4.2ast 1.4stl 0.2blk 2.6TO
KevinMartin: 23.4pts 4.2reb 2.2ast 1.3stl 0.2blk 1.9TO

The advantage you gain with Kevin is scoring, you lose passing and defense. Except of course the whole argument of how Keivn can fit, despite almost no examples of any shoot first weenie ever having fit in this situation, is that he's not GOING to shoot that much. Really. So now the one and only advanatge he has is going to be muted. How much would you say is fair? 20.4pts a game? 19.4pts a game? 18.4? And at that point you want me to give up passing and defense (not to mention the growth of promising youth who are only going to get better) for about 2-4pts of scoring, that is going to be achevied by taking shots away from other players? And you want me to do this by inserting a player that costs twice as much as the most expensive of the players he is replacing, and TEN times as much as the cheapest (Donte)? And in the process you want me to also give up my single biggest trading chip for this honor??

Somehow I am thinking such a proposal would not fly in the trade forum.
Click to expand...

While I do continue to disagree with you about how Kevin can fit into the offense, I do agree wholeheartedly with your overall point and give you kudos on putting together these stats. I am willing to trade Kevin for a component that fits in more with our rebuilding.

The only counter-argument I will make here though is that in basketball you win by having the best superstar and by having the 5 best players on the floor at the end of the game. While, the mythical Omrentegio might do a great job of replacing KMarts statistical production throughout the game, this isn't fantasy basketball, and offensively our team will likely be best served in the final 5 minutes with Kevin on the floor. However, since we do have to consider defense, trading sounds very appealing especially since we will have several young assets to resign in a couple of years.
 
OvechKiN said:
I somewhat understand why everyone wants to trade Kevin Martin (only ticket to a star starting Center).
But I say lets KEEP Kevin!
Not only does he seem like the perfect compliment to Tyreke on paper for reasons that have been repeated over and over again (non-selfish, not ball dominant, does not need a ton of touches), but I think that with the new philosophy of the team, that Kevin will improve his defensive game.

Kevin will no longer be a spectator on defense because he will want to win and he will no longer get away with it.

Also, Kevin will have more energy throughout the game to play defense now that he is not relied upon 100% to supply the offense.

And lastly, Kevin Martin will not get us Greg Oden or a Chris Bosh esque player, so I don't think it makes any sense to trade him for an ok starter at C.
Click to expand...


This!!!

I keep thinking what would have happened if Kevin had been playing with the team last night. Something inside tells me that a lot of us are going to be pleasantly surprised when he comes back.

We miss you, Kevin! Come back soon!!!!
 
I thought I would post the latest on Kevin which I have read. This was on yahoo sports this morning. Obviously it doesn't warrent its own thead. Nothing new really.


While two NBA sources said the Sacramento Kings are considering trading sharpshooter Kevin Martin(notes) because of the emergence of rookie guard Tyreke Evans(notes), one source with the team offered a reason why the Kings would be better off keeping Martin. Trading Martin, the source said, “would be foolish. [Opposing defenses] are clogging up the middle. We need him now more than ever.”
 
rainmaker said:
I thought I would post the latest on Kevin which I have read. This was on yahoo sports this morning. Obviously it doesn't warrent its own thead. Nothing new really.


While two NBA sources said the Sacramento Kings are considering trading sharpshooter Kevin Martin(notes) because of the emergence of rookie guard Tyreke Evans(notes), one source with the team offered a reason why the Kings would be better off keeping Martin. Trading Martin, the source said, “would be foolish. [Opposing defenses] are clogging up the middle. We need him now more than ever.”
Click to expand...


I think it would be foolish, honestly. He is probably more valuable to us than anyone else. Teams don't give up stud centers or PF for scorers. I can't wait to see how he fits into this squad.
 
I'm looking forward to seeing what Westfall and his brain trust come up with in utilizing Martin. He could be a really big asset for this team. He could change the character of the team in a very positive way. I agree with the poster who preferred Martin at the 2 to Omri or Greene. If the coaches are successful we may be better off with Martin playing than with the big we need. You just never know. Of course, in the meantime it is fun to speculate.

Now, how about Garcia? I'm looking forward to his return also. How about the players that are part of the current "chemistry"? I read lots of complaints now about Noc, I have lots of complaints about Greene, Omri is great but a rookie, Rodriguez is great but missing a dimension. They all limp a little bit. Is Martin's return that big a treat. I don't think so and I'm dieing to see it happen.
 
rainmaker said:
I thought I would post the latest on Kevin which I have read. This was on yahoo sports this morning. Obviously it doesn't warrent its own thead. Nothing new really.


While two NBA sources said the Sacramento Kings are considering trading sharpshooter Kevin Martin(notes) because of the emergence of rookie guard Tyreke Evans(notes), one source with the team offered a reason why the Kings would be better off keeping Martin. Trading Martin, the source said, “would be foolish. [Opposing defenses] are clogging up the middle. We need him now more than ever.”
Click to expand...

Except we have pretty good shooters already, none that garner respect yet but it will come. It will come. This isn't a knock on Tyreke, but he does get tunnel vision when he drives and eventually he'll learn to kick it outside to a shooter which will help open up the paint (this will be a problem whether Kmart is here or not).

All I can remember is an article in the off-season by the Sac Bee about KMart working this off-season trying to improve his offense and not caring about his defense. I tried to look up the article just to make sure my memory was correct. That being said at his age I don't think he's all the sudden going to redevote himself into being a defensive stopper or even an average defender. We can only hope he will put forth most his energy on the defensive end now, but I will have to see it to believe it.
 
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