We need Kevin back (merged)

[Uncia03]

Now, in regards to the arguement that when Kevin comes back our defense goes into the toilet. Personally, I think our bigs are a much larger part of the problem. I'm not looking for Kevin to be a lockdown defender-aint gonna happen. But when we have bigs that can protect the paint, and actually defend a pick & roll, then Kevins defensive problems don't stick out that much. IMO, defensive bigs are more important than defensive wings, and that is a problem we really need to correct.

......

I'm sure a few of you will disagree with my take. I don't think its a popular one right now.

Actually I agree with almost everything you said, though I'm only showing the portion of your post I wanted to comment on.

I was very pleased with how Kevin was playing at the start of the season, and I'll agree that his effort seemed to be showing more on the defensive end.

With that said, you point out the primary reason I wouldn't be opposed to trading Kevin. As noted, our interior defense is our biggest hole right now, and no matter who we play at the 2-guard, that won't change until we make a move to add a good defensive big to our team.

Adding a big defensive bit to our team is going to help us more than adding Kevin back into the line-up, especially since I feel that Francisco can step in at the 2-guard spot and play very well next to Tyreke.

So if we can gain a huge bonus by trading Kevin for an interior Big, while not experiencing too much of a drop-off by playing Garcia at the 2, and opening up more room for Donte/Casspi at the 3, then that might be the best move to make.

Now, if we can trade KT's expiring for a big like Okafor, then I'm all for keeping Kevin and seeing how he and Tyreke play together for the rest of the season, but I think we need a Big if we want to make it into the playoffs this season, and Kevin might be the best asset to use to accomplish that.

 

[Oprostaj]

Oh, and someone said there's only 5 players on the floor at a time? Really? What do you know... you learn something new everyday.

Seriously? Are you intentionally trying to sound idiotic or did you not understand what I was trying to say? I'm asking seriously.

On the Kevin / defense thing. The guy was a borderline average defender before he had to become our only scorer. I can understand why he's not a lockdown defender - but watching him these past couple of years you could see he did not WANT to defend. He gambles for steals, gets caught out of position, and gets outmuscled far too much. You have to WANT to play defense. Majority of it is in your head. He could have the physical tools, and he has the quickness. Again, I'm not sure if it's the injuries, or the load of having to be the primary (only?) scoring option on a bad team. He's been beset by injuries, and I do agree with you and Entity that he needs time. Personally, I'm glad we have the luxury of wondering whether a 25ppg scorer will make us better or worse - I love the direction of the team. I just don't think the Martin thing will work. But I hope it does. I really do like him as a player.

 

[Luv4Kings]

Seriously? Are you intentionally trying to sound idiotic or did you not understand what I was trying to say? I'm asking seriously.

You were the one being "cute". Just say that someone else will get less minutes instead of implying I'm too stupid to know that only 5 players are on the floor at a time.

On the Kevin / defense thing. The guy was a borderline average defender before he had to become our only scorer. I can understand why he's not a lockdown defender - but watching him these past couple of years you could see he did not WANT to defend. He gambles for steals, gets caught out of position, and gets outmuscled far too much. You have to WANT to play defense. Majority of it is in your head. He could have the physical tools, and he has the quickness. Again, I'm not sure if it's the injuries, or the load of having to be the primary (only?) scoring option on a bad team. He's been beset by injuries, and I do agree with you and Entity that he needs time. Personally, I'm glad we have the luxury of wondering whether a 25ppg scorer will make us better or worse - I love the direction of the team. I just don't think the Martin thing will work. But I hope it does. I really do like him as a player.

As for the rest of your comment, you claim to read Kevin's mind and know what he "WANTS" to do.

No comment on that.

 

[ParniValjak]

The thing about Kevin which I find puzzling, is that it seems the majority of Kings fans on this forum think that when he comes back it won't work out, and they don't even want to give it a chance.

Maybe I'm part of a selct few here, but I was very impressed with what kevin did his first 5 games, defense included. Assists were up, rebounds were up, steals were up. Of course he has room to improve on defense, but he won't, nor will anyone else, turn into a great defender over the course of 5 games. I would even make the arguement that when comparing last years team to this years, kevin made the most improvement on defense out of anyone on our roster last year. And yes, I'm judging that on 5 games because thats all I have to go on.

Objectively, I would say Kevins defense was average compared to the other sg's in the league. If he had been playing this entire time, I think he would have improved even more, because the effort was there.

Now, in regards to the arguement that when Kevin comes back our defense goes into the toilet. Personally, I think our bigs are a much larger part of the problem. I'm not looking for Kevin to be a lockdown defender-aint gonna happen. But when we have bigs that can protect the paint, and actually defend a pick & roll, then Kevins defensive problems don't stick out that much. IMO, defensive bigs are more important than defensive wings, and that is a problem we really need to correct.

These aren't excuses for Kevin. He could come back and this team will tank. I don't know. Nobody does. But I'll wait and see, before declaring that Kevin CAN'T fit in with this team. Also, Westphal has been brilliant coaching these guys with players popping in and out of the lineup all season. Doesn't anyone else have confidence that Westphal can make this work? I'm surprised that such a large percentage of fans here are already ready to write off Kevin.

I'm sure a few of you will disagree with my take. I don't think its a popular one right now.

Its not a matter of hating on Kevin or because his D sucks, its a matter of what fits best. If we are smart, Tyreke is the face of this franchise and we build around him. At the start of the season, while Kevin was on fire, Tyreke is a spectator.

The best way for this team to go forward it to get another scorer in the frontcourt that way Reke and that PF or C can play together and complement each other all night long. They can run pick and roll all night long and both be effective without taking away from each other.

I am not sure that a backcourt of 2 scorers has much chance for success. If we want to go anywhere we need the inside-outside game.

I still strongly believe that a star PF/C (primary or secondary scoring option along with Reke) is what this team needs and in that case Cisco becomes a much better and cheaper fit than Martin. In this scenario Martin becomes nothing more than a spot up shooter which takes something away from his game and also gives us a pretty overpaid spot us shooter at that position.

With Reke and Martin, the likely scenario will be that they both take turns in taking their shots which slows down the offence and excludes the rest of the players on the court for the most part. Thats why Kevin's biggest value to us is as a trading chip for that ever elusive PF or C star to pair with Reke.

If instead of Reke we got a PF/C from this draft and he was out franchise guy, there is no way in hell I would be even thinking of trading Kevin. We would have that inside-outisde pairing which seems to be norm for the good to great teams.

 

[Luv4Kings]

I've been trying to follow the "trade Kevin" arguments. It seems it boils down to 2 basic points.

1) Kevin will mess up the chemistry when he comes back.

If tonight is an example of our chemistry, then it could use a little shake up by a consistent shooter. However, it's an interesting argument. Yes, someone will get less playing time. But again, looking at tonights game, the only players in double figures at half time are Evans and Greene. And we know Greene had a bad couple of games before this one.

I see only positives in starting Evans and Martin at guards switching them out with Beno and Sergio. Then at SF you can play Noc, Greene, Casspi; whichever player is having a good game gets more minutes. The only Super Star in all those players is Evans, potentially, and the only other known consistent player is Martin, when healthy, of course.

2) We need to trade a good player to get a great big man.

This one is a better argument, although still not a guarantee. In this situation, I'll have to leave the judgement up to Petrie. Only he knows who's really available and who's really expendible.

 

[rainmaker]

Its not a matter of hating on Kevin or because his D sucks, its a matter of what fits best. If we are smart, Tyreke is the face of this franchise and we build around him. At the start of the season, while Kevin was on fire, Tyreke is a spectator.

The best way for this team to go forward it to get another scorer in the frontcourt that way Reke and that PF or C can play together and complement each other all night long. They can run pick and roll all night long and both be effective without taking away from each other.

I am not sure that a backcourt of 2 scorers has much chance for success. If we want to go anywhere we need the inside-outside game.

I still strongly believe that a star PF/C (primary or secondary scoring option along with Reke) is what this team needs and in that case Cisco becomes a much better and cheaper fit than Martin. In this scenario Martin becomes nothing more than a spot up shooter which takes something away from his game and also gives us a pretty overpaid spot us shooter at that position.

With Reke and Martin, the likely scenario will be that they both take turns in taking their shots which slows down the offence and excludes the rest of the players on the court for the most part. Thats why Kevin's biggest value to us is as a trading chip for that ever elusive PF or C star to pair with Reke.

If instead of Reke we got a PF/C from this draft and he was out franchise guy, there is no way in hell I would be even thinking of trading Kevin. We would have that inside-outisde pairing which seems to be norm for the good to great teams.

Its true we need an inside out game.But you're ignoring JT and Spencer. There is no need to rush and make a trade befor letting our guys develop.

Yes Tyreke will be the face of the franchise, but that doesn't mean we need to trade Kevin. Ideally, Kevin would be a great 2nd or 3rd option. I don't understand how you, or anyone else thinks for a fact that Kevin and Tyreke can't play together. Let westphal figure that out. Let it play out. We don't know right now.

What we really need is another big. A defensive/physical big. I think we can get one using KT's expiring paired with Noc or Cisco. Point being, we have other pieces, and other options, before trading Kevin.

Going back to what you said about this team needing a star pf/c. You could say that about 25 teams in the league. If we can get a STAR for Kevin, then by all means, pull the trigger. But, IMO, the chances of Kevin getting us a star big man in return, with out playing more than 5 games, is minimal at best. We have a far better chance of getting a 3rd defensive big, without blowing up the team.

You can't take much from the first 5 games. Definately not enough to be entirely convinced Tyreke and Kevin can't play together. Tyreke wasn't just a spectator at the beginning of the year. He got his shots up. But the fact is, it was the first 5 games Tyreke had played in the nba. What do you expect? The feeling out process, and adjustment to the nba game, takes much longer than 5 games.

 

[Emma]

As I watched our young guys toss up miss after miss from the charity stripe I began to openly weep for the unfortunate fragility of Martin. I wanted him on the floor so bad I thought I would have traded Hawes and Thompson for him right now were he on a different team.

I may include him in other trade scenarios, but I miss the guy and his incredible execution.

 

[OptimusRhyme]

As I watched our young guys toss up miss after miss from the charity stripe I began to openly weep for the unfortunate fragility of Martin. I wanted him on the floor so bad I thought I would have traded Hawes and Thompson for him right now were he on a different team.
I may include him in other trade scenarios, but I miss the guy and his incredible execution.

yah as good as tyreke is he cant do it all on his own. with two dominant offensie weapons in martin and tyreke we are going to give alot of teams fits. teams will not be able to throw so many doubles at us like we are seeing now. get better soon kev.

 

[Gliesian]

I can't wait for Kev to come back, but its going to suck seeing Donte get less minutes now that he's playing well. Kinda cool how a lot of our guys can play at least 2 positions, so maybe I won't have to worry

 

[Arkitect]

Regardless of whether we trade Kevin or not, we need to trade 1 or 2 of our swingmen once Frisco and KMart get back. The other bench guys have shown too much to have their minutes cut back, especially Donte. A Tyreke-Donte pairing has the potential to be scary in a couple of years. It would just be so big, long, fast, and strong.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Regardless of whether we trade Kevin or not, we need to trade 1 or 2 of our swingmen once Frisco and KMart get back. The other bench guys have shown too much to have their minutes cut back, especially Donte. A Tyreke-Donte pairing has the potential to be scary in a couple of years. It would just be so big, long, fast, and strong.

Agreed. We need to make some kind of a move. I would hate to see Donte and Casspi relegated to small, 5-8 minute a game roles.

And yes, Donte and Tyreke have the potential to be an AMAZING pairing in a couple of years. I am very excited to see their development. They legitimately could be the types of pieces who give you the foundation for a championship.

And btw, have to love that Artest trade now. Donte and Casspi appear to be quite a haul for Artest.

 

[Oprostaj]

You were the one being "cute". Just say that someone else will get less minutes instead of implying I'm too stupid to know that only 5 players are on the floor at a time.



As for the rest of your comment, you claim to read Kevin's mind and know what he "WANTS" to do.

No comment on that.

Being cute? Yeah I can see why you would say that. Point taken. About Kevin - I'm not reading his mind any more than you are. You show me in the past couple of years any reason as to why we should label him an average defender or give hope that he will be a good one in the future. At least I'm basing my assumption on some sort of fact, while yours is based on blind hope.

 

[Luv4Kings]

Being cute? Yeah I can see why you would say that. Point taken. About Kevin - I'm not reading his mind any more than you are. You show me in the past couple of years any reason as to why we should label him an average defender or give hope that he will be a good one in the future. At least I'm basing my assumption on some sort of fact, while yours is based on blind hope.

I believe I listed why I think Kevin was an average defender in the past, and why he wasn't a good defender last year. My opinion (which is all we're talking about here anyway) comes from watching all those games.

As to his attitude about defense, you claim to know that he doesn't even want to play defense. In order to know that you have to call him a liar when he says he's working hard to get better because you know what he's really thinking. I'm thinking that what you saw was only from last season when he played injured all year. And what might have looked like him not caring was really him not able to do much more.

I'm looking at his performance from his Rookie season all the way to this season. I'm remembering him eager to work with Doug Christie when he got here to improve his defense. I just wish Doug had stayed around longer.

 

[Kingster]

I realize that conventional wisdom today is that Kevin has no defensive skills at all.

However, I remember when he played 2-3 years ago, his defense was decent, if not great. He was studying Doug Christie. I also remember when we played Seattle that Ray Allen hated to see Kevin coming. Somehow, Kevin managed to stop Allen. So if he can't play any defense at all, then maybe Allen isn't that great a shooter?!?

Of course, last season Kevin played with a gimpy ankle and calf so it's a little hard to be pivoting and managing to stay in front of a quick offensive player.

No, I'm not saying Kevin is the next Kobe Stopper, but he can play decent defense when healthy. At least, he used to and I'm sure he can again.

Oh, and someone said there's only 5 players on the floor at a time? Really? What do you know... you learn something new everyday.

I agree wholeheartedly. He does have the quicks to stay in front of people. In fact, when he was a rookie he astonished me when he was guarding a point guard, the guy faked him out and Martin still got back to take a charge. You don't see that everyday. He's got it in him to be pretty good defensively, at least for short bursts. It's his relative physical weakness that limits him. I wonder if Westphal might play him less minutes when he comes back than what he did previously...? It might help him physically. Fewer minutes may translate to better D.

 

[Luv4Kings]

I agree wholeheartedly. He does have the quicks to stay in front of people. In fact, when he was a rookie he astonished me when he was guarding a point guard, the guy faked him out and Martin still got back to take a charge. You don't see that everyday. He's got it in him to be pretty good defensively, at least for short bursts. It's his relative physical weakness that limits him. I wonder if Westphal might play him less minutes when he comes back than what he did previously...? It might help him physically. Fewer minutes may translate to better D.

That's true. Martin used to take a lot of charges before he was hurt last season.

Fewer minutes should be possible now that we've seen we have a bench that can get hot and score now. At least somebody off that bench has a chance to get hot at some point.

 

[kupman]

WE DO NOT NEED OFFENSE.

Look, I will keep posting that statment around in every single thread where we, the softest offensive-fascinated fanbase in the NBA complain again about how gee, we ONLY scored 107 again while ignoring the real problem becuase its not as simple, easy, and pretty to watch: defense. That's the problem. Was last year when those wonderful Kevin Martin led crews were the worst in the league. Is again this year when all our kids' hustle and scrap has moved us up maybe 6-8 spots, but still in the bottom 3rd of the league. We just play bad defense. Now we are at least trying, but we still play bad defense. We are young, we lack defensive stoppers, shotblocking, and a defensive captain.

All this pining about wanting more offense, oh we need a shooter, oh we need a scorer, oh oh...it makes me wonder if people are watching the rest of the league. Cleveland sure is a damn nice team huh? And that LeBron fella is pretty good. Well we outscore them, by a LOT. 5ppg. Boston, woohoo! Maybe 3 HOFs... a title....we outscore them by 5ppg too. Orlando 4ppg. San Antonio 5ppg. We outscore Dallas. We outscore the Lakers. We just played the only top team that outscores us by any significant amount. ITS NOT ABOUT OFFENSE. Our offense is fine.

Brick and I do not agree on much. However, I may have never agreed with a post more than this one. When I consider what it will take to get this team to win more games I usually as myself - "how can we keep our opponents under a 100?" My answer does not include more PT for KHurt.

Our offense is fine. We still need better D.

 

[Luv4Kings]

Brick and I do not agree on much. However, I may have never agreed with a post more than this one. When I consider what it will take to get this team to win more games I usually as myself - "how can we keep our opponents under a 100?" My answer does not include more PT for KHurt.

Our offense is fine. We still need better D.

Our offiense is fine when we play against the Nets or Knicks or Warriors.

But obviously a serious defensive team makes for a different story.

 

[DocHolliday916]

Sac Bee reporting that Martin thinks he'll be ready for a return in 3 weeks.

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/2378310.html#mi_rss=Kings/NBA

 

[kingzallday]

"I'll get back out there and everybody has got to keep playing their same game," he said. "I'm not a guy who gets the ball and dribbles a lot. I'm not a dominant player with the ball. I get my points in the flow, so there shouldn't really be any change."

Looks like this might answer some questions as to wether he's going to complain about not having as many touches as he did before the injury. I like the way Martin is still somewhat involved in the team and it seems like he's eager to come back. Hopefully he comes back when they visit the Hawks because I'm going to that game. Drop 50 on'em K-MART!!!!

 

[AriesMar27]

"I'll get back out there and everybody has got to keep playing their same game," he said. "I'm not a guy who gets the ball and dribbles a lot. I'm not a dominant player with the ball. I get my points in the flow, so there shouldn't really be any change."

Looks like this might answer some questions as to wether he's going to complain about not having as many touches as he did before the injury. I like the way Martin is still somewhat involved in the team and it seems like he's eager to come back. Hopefully he comes back when they visit the Hawks because I'm going to that game. Drop 50 on'em K-MART!!!!

thats what most of us were saying from the beginning... he doesnt need the ball to be involved in the offense... as far as defense goes, it has less to do with martin and more to do with our bigs. or lack thereof...

 

[kingzallday]

It seems more like half and half from what i've seen on this forum. Half think Martin will fit in. The other half don't and want Martin to be traded away.

 

[swisshh]

Martin can fit in, but he doesn't address any concerns and moves Tyreke back to the PG. He also is another player at an overloaded spot. There is just no room when you have a glaring need for another big and better play with Beno/Sergio on the floor with the rest. Someone will lose all playing time or someone will be traded.

 

[kingzallday]

True, but it wouldn't kill to have another option on offense.

 

[VF21]

Okay, now I'm confused.

Is the debate d'jour supposed to be whether or not Martin will fit back into the rotation OR whether or not Spencer Hawes is the softest legitimate 7-footer in the history of the NBA?

You guys really need to pick one.

 

[NME]

Okay, now I'm confused.

Is the debate d'jour supposed to be whether or not Martin will fit back into the rotation OR whether or not Spencer Hawes is the softest legitimate 7-footer in the history of the NBA?

You guys really need to pick one.

The obvious solution to both problems is to move Hawes to SG. Talk about mismatches!

 

[rainmaker]

The obvious solution to both problems is to move Hawes to SG. Talk about mismatches!

Thank you. End of debate!

 

[AriesMar27]

Okay, now I'm confused.

Is the debate d'jour supposed to be whether or not Martin will fit back into the rotation OR whether or not Spencer Hawes is the softest legitimate 7-footer in the history of the NBA?

You guys really need to pick one.

maybe martin will only fit because hawes is soft.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Martin can fit in, but he doesn't address any concerns and moves Tyreke back to the PG. He also is another player at an overloaded spot. There is just no room when you have a glaring need for another big and better play with Beno/Sergio on the floor with the rest. Someone will lose all playing time or someone will be traded.

I have to disagree here. Of the starting 5, who is a consistent scoring option outside of Evans? Nocioni is probably our best option after Tyreke... We need another reliable scorer and outside shooter.

 

[Bricklayer]

Martin can fit in, but he doesn't address any concerns and moves Tyreke back to the PG. He also is another player at an overloaded spot. There is just no room when you have a glaring need for another big and better play with Beno/Sergio on the floor with the rest. Someone will lose all playing time or someone will be traded.

You guys are missing the not so subtle point of this post -- "will move Tyreke back to the PG". It never ends. This despite him starting next to Donte Greene for the last couple of weeks.

 

[swisshh]

Nobody is missing it.