Voisin sourced as saying Kings willing to Trade DeMarcus Cousins
- Thread starter lwc
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Double-K
Starter
Say we can trade Cousins one-on-one to get any single NBA player, of whom playing in the NBA currently that will actually give us a chance to compete in winning a championship right now can we get?
Steph Curry? Lebron James? Kevin Durant? Kwahi Leonard? Anthony Davis? Can any of those 5, best current players in the NBA, gives us a better chance (than with Cousins) and put us in the championship hunt immediately?
Only LeBron is currently capable of making any team a playoff team and any middle of the road team a contender.
After the Shaq trade a prime Kobe couldn't get the Lakers more than 34 wins. And I'd argue that team had as much talent as this year's Kings. Young Caron Butler & Lamar Odom, serviceable Brian Grant, Mihm, Devean George, Chucky Atkins, Luke Walton, Sasha Vujecic, even a near retired Vlade.
Drafting Bynum, trading for Gasol and a few other tweaks and LA is contending again.
Kingsgurl
Starter
Which is why I refuse to click on anything written by her
Kingsgurl
Starter
Championship hunt? Probably not. A 3-5 seed? Yes
Mike
Bench
It depends on how you want the team to play. If you want to play like Thibodeau's Bulls, then with Cousins as the center piece it would be possible to not need to make a move. All we would need to do is look at what we can do to upgrade the other positions in terms of creating a defensively dominant team.
However, if we were to make a trade one-on-one, then someone like James Harden could do it. He put up 29 ppg and 7.5 assists. Offensively he carried the Rockets and while they lost to the Warriors, that was partly down to losing to a superior team with greater depth, and some ineffective play from his supporting cast. With him on board he would carry the team offensively and what we would need is a defensively minded center, which we may have in WCS or we could even use Koufos in that role. Other improvements might be needed at other positions.
Another player that might be able to carry a team is Jimmy Butler. He's elite defensively, a very capable scorer, and a good ball handler. I've seen some suggest he could fit with the Lakers and be their ball handler while Russel/Clarkson could be their off the ball guy at PG. Like the above we would gain a 20+ ppg scorer, an elite defender, and a capable ball handler. We could then slot WCS or Koufos in at center and tweak the other positions when needed.
Another example would be Russell Westbrook. He's a prolific scorer, an excellent ball handler, and good on defense too. When Durant went down last season he almost helped carry OKC into the play offs and they finished 45-37. That record this season would have been good for the fifth seed.
By no means would we definitely be better, and I doubt Harden or Westbrook would have any interest, but those two have shown they can carry a team and in the right situation a healthy Jimmy Butler could. The other thing to bare in mind is if any of he reports about teammates complaining about Cousins' attitude is true, then that can hurt team chemistry and bringing in a less volatile character could be beneficial. That said, if done correctly we can build around Cousins but it won't be easy and we still have a two season window to get this team in a strong enough position to persuade him to stay.
Not to nitpick (because I agree with most of what you said) but Jimmy Butler played two more games than Cousins this season and couldn't carry his team into the playoffs.
Mike
Bench
True, but Butler wasn't heathy at times this season and missed 15 games. They've had other issues with injuries: Derrick Rose (16), Pau Gasol (10), Mirotic (16), Dunleavy (51), Noah (53) etc have all missed time. The likes of Rose haven't played to their usual level, Noah wasn't the same when he was playing, and in general they seem to still be transitioning from Thibodeau to Hoiberg.
If Butler had been heathy all season, and his supporting cast had managed to stay healthy (ie their starting SF and C missed 51 and 53 games respectively), maybe they might have got into the play offs. They were up near the top at one point but fell like a lead balloon with injuries. I still feel a healthy Butler can be the go to guy on a team and carry them.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Not to mention Jimmy Butler may be out of Chicago precisely because, gee, he is feuding with teammates and his coach.
The grass isn't greener folks.
Butler is not as good as Cousins anyway, but even if you want to try to include him in a franchise level players list, out of the 10 or so franchise level guys i the league half of them have their own serious questions:
-- Blake punched out his own team official, the team barely missed him while he was out
-- Harden is being rightly roasted for complete indifference on defense and lack of leadership, he may have pushed to fire his coach, and to trade his teammate
-- LeBron has what might be kindly described as shaky relationships with Kyie and Love, and fired his coach midseason
-- Davis is getting scary in his injury proneness.
-- CP3 apparently has a nasty relationship with DeAndre Jordan and is widely accused of firing Vinny Del Negro, possibly even for racial reasons
-- Butler is accused of having grown arrogant, of feuding with Noah, and openly feuding with his coach
-- Westbrook is an all time terrible dresser
THE GRASS IS NOT GREENER. Its just spray painted to look good in the distance.
I'm a big Jimmy Butler fan but if Cousins doesn't get a pass for missing games then Butler doesn't either, especially when he missed fewer games. And I agree a healthy Bulls team easily makes the postseason, but that's the point of being a guy who carries an entire team - you still do it when guys go down. LeBron had the Cavs competing against the Warriors while missing Irving and Love. There are VERY few guys who can legitimately carry a team.
And when the Kings are as bad as the Sixers when Cousins doesn't play it's pretty hard to say he should be dragging them into the playoffs.
Mike
Bench
Agreed, very few guys can carry a team on their back, but I do feel there is a positional aspect to it as well.
For instance, LeBron can take primary ball handling duties even though he plays the forward position. Last season LeBron averaged 25.3 ppg and 7.4 assists and in the play offs he boosted those numbers to 30.1 ppg and 8.5 assists. This season LeBron averaged 25.3 ppg and 6.8 assists in regular season, and so far in the play offs his numbers are similar at 22.8 ppg and 6.8 assists. The same happened in Miami and his first run in Cleveland. The offense flows through LeBron whether his starting PG and PF is Matthew Dellavedova and Tristan Thompson, or Kyrie Iriving and Kevin Love. It doesn't really matter as such because LeBron wants the ball and the offense flows through him. Plus, he has that innate ability to make everyone around him a better player through his sheer ability, desire, heart, passion and work ethic. He is truly one of those special players that can pretty much do everything on a basketball court, he can be that primary ball handler and drive the offense, or he can defer the ball handling duties and still be the biggest threat on the court at the offensive end. When their offense has a dry spell, LeBron can put his team on his back and drive them down the court and turn it around based on him doing it himself, or him creating the opportunities for others by putting his body on the line and making the plays possible. The same goes when they have players missing, he can carry them because he can be that go to guy with the ball, or he can be that go to guy off the ball.
Now Cousins is a special player in his own right. He is still one of the biggest threats on any court, on any given night. He has the ability to viciously attack the rim, score in the paint, and has a lovely touch on his shots, but play making ability is not his forte. So as good as Cousins is, I am not sure he is the type of player to carry a team on his back alone. He can be that prolific scorer, but I don't see him being that type of player that can carry the offense and create the opportunities for others like LeBron, Curry, Harden and co can do. I think he is going to need a good running mate to control the ball handling duties and perhaps ease some of the scoring burden off his shoulders, and that should allow Cousins to play with more freedom because it takes the pressure off him. He will still be the go to guy, like Shaq was in Orlando, but in this instance he would have that brilliant play maker and prolific scorer backing him up. The issue we have here in Sacramento is that we don't really have the ideal running mate(s) for him, we don't have a Penny Hardaway to make the plays and score. We have Rondo who is a good passer, but is too inconsistent shooting and on the defensive end to be relied on; and a streaky player in Collison, who is not really a play off calibre starting point guard. So unless we find that solution and upgrade Cousins' supporting cast, or our next head coach can bring everyone together and get the best out of players we've got here like Thibodeau did out of his injury hit Chicago Bulls teams, then I think we might struggle to improve from our current position.
As for Butler, he is the type of player that could potentially carry a team on his back when he is healthy. I'm not saying he could carry them to a title, but he could get them into the play offs. He's not LeBron, but he is still ascending and has not reached his ceiling. He can be that go to guy with the ball in hand, and he can be that go to guy off the ball as well. That is the great thing about a player like Butler. But he is going to need to get healthy next season and continue to improve, and I'd love a player like that on our team. If we could find a way to get Jimmy Butler here in Sacramento to pair with Cousins, I think we would have a brighter future than with our current big three of Rondo, Gay and Cousins.
I'll have to agree to disagree on Butler. That said, while I think a guy like Kawhi Leonard is a better overall player I do think Butler raises his team up a bit more because of his playmaking ability. He's not Harden or Lebron, but he can definitely get his teammates involved.
Cousins will always need help. He can be the focal point of a good to great team and he can certainly raise his passing/playmaking game as he has the vision and the ability, but he's not a guy who runs the show. And I'd love Butler on the Kings. I'd trade anybody other than Cousins and WCS to make that happen. Gay/McLemore/Belinelli/lottery pick for Butler & Gibson? Is Chicago looking to rebuild around Rose or blow things up and start over?
Cousins will always need help. He can be the focal point of a good to great team and he can certainly raise his passing/playmaking game as he has the vision and the ability, but he's not a guy who runs the show. And I'd love Butler on the Kings. I'd trade anybody other than Cousins and WCS to make that happen. Gay/McLemore/Belinelli/lottery pick for Butler & Gibson? Is Chicago looking to rebuild around Rose or blow things up and start over?
ParniValjak
All-Star
The only thing making me pause with Butler is his apparent demand to be "the man". When you have two big name players on the team, it's imperative that the egos are put aside for the betterment of the team. Indications from Chicago are that this has been an issue with Butler hence their possible interest in trading him.
Cousins-Butler duo would be great on paper going forward but I wonder what the chemistry mix would be like.
Mike
Bench
For me, it might be worth taking a risk on Butler - if he's available and we can keep Cousins in any trade - because if they get along we have a power duo to build around. Plus, a true all star and stud like Butler should help our chances of Cousins signing a new contract extension and staying here for the remainder of his prime years.
Worst case scenario is they don't get along and Cousins walks in two years time or is traded before the trade deadline. At that point we still have an all star and stud to build around in Butler. Granted Cousins leaving wouldn't be ideal, but we could still build a competitive roster around Butler so it would leave us in a decent position. That wouldn't be the cause if we stick with what we've got and Cousins leaves, at that point we'd be needing to blow it up and rebuild.
kupman
Starter
The only way we could get Butler here is to trade him for DMC. Why would the Bulls trade Butler away for anything else we have? Gay is the next best asset we have after DMC and there is no way they are going trade Butler for Gay. Bulls fans would laugh at that in much the same way we would laugh at a DMC for Gasol trade.
Mike
Bench
We could give them our first round pick this year which we owe them. Currently it's top ten protected and if we stay in the top ten we keep it, agree to take away the protection and send the pick their way.
Rudy Gay would slot in nicely at SF for them, after all they are currently starting Dunleavy. Gay isn't an all star but he's a 20 ppg player who is a good teammate. He doesn't need to be "the guy" either like Butler supposedly wants to be, so he would fit what they want if they still want it to be Rose's team.
We can send them Ben McLemore. He might have been a bust for us so far, but he's still talented and perhaps a change of scenery could help him. He's well worth taking a risk on from their prospective because if he does break out they get the player we hoped for when we drafted him, or worse case scenario he gives them something off the bench.
After that we might need to start looking at the likes of Koufos, Curry, Collison, or maybe WCS to be put in the deal. If we could get away with sending them Collison, that would help give them an upgrade at the back up PG position and give them insurance for when Rose misses time. Or perhaps they would like Koufos if they lose Noah and/or Gasol in free agency.
I think we have enough assets to put an offer on the table without needing to move Cousins. Plus, the thing that needs to be considered here is that if the rumors about Butler and Rose both wanting to be the guy in Chicago are true, then there is no way in hell they would decide to bring in Cousins who has a similar attitude here in Sacramento. They would be getting an all star center, but they would also be taking on another player with a huge ego and wanting to be the center piece. So I don't see a Cousins trade being feasible because they wouldn't be getting rid of the ego problem. So if they choose Rose over Butler, then we would have to put up a heck of an offer excluding Cousins to tempt them to trade Butler here and I think we could do it. It might not be an all star for an all star, but we could give them assets and draft picks to make it worth their while.
Dime Dropper
All-Star
I would love to have Butler (obviously not at the expense of Cuz). I am however worried about his personality, he is very much alpha. And he's coming from a veteran-laden team with Rose/Gasol/Noah. How would he react to being second fiddle on a 30 win Kings team? Butler is great, but he's not better than Cuz, and there's no way he'd be the top dog on this team. He would make an elite second guy though, and probably take us to the playoffs if we get the right coach.
macadocious
Starter
LOL @ the Westbrook comment.
kupman
Starter
Sounds awesome to me - as a Kings fan. Try pitching this to a Bulls fan forum and let us know how it goes.
Mike
Bench
I can see the flip side that the fans wouldn't want it and they would want a star in return for Butler, but generally we don't see very many trades that work out that way. Often the team that lets the star go doesn't always get an instant return for them and it generally includes: draft picks, developing players, solid veteran talent. Now if I was a Bulls fan reading that trade offer, of course I would shake my head and would be against it. I would have that same attitude if someone pitched the following to us:
- We Send: DeMarcus Cousins
- We Receive: Victor Oladipo, Nikola Vucevic, and Orlando's 2016 first round pick and perhaps another first round pick.
But what we need to appreciate in that scenario is that in all likelihood we would be moving on from Cousins because we feel that he is part of the problem or simply want to start a new era of Kings basketball with a new look roster. Now don't get me wrong if we got this return from Orlando I wouldn't be devastated because Oladipo and Vucevic are still young players trending upwards. Oladipo is a high energy player, who plays excellent defense and is a bit streaky on the offensive end, but overall he is a very good two way player. Vucevic isn't a dominant center, but he has good touch on the offensive end with a well balanced set of skills, and he isn't a slouch on the defensive end. Overall two good players that would slot in nicely at SG and C. We would then have the #8 and #11 pick in the draft, which isn't ideal to find new star talent but there are some intriguing players and perhaps we could package them to move up in the draft, or acquire a young talent. Essentially this would be a rebuild/retool, Cousins would be gone, we would probably let Rondo walk, and perhaps look to trade Rudy Gay as well. Go with a new young roster and hope to develop into a more well rounded team under a new coaching regime.
The difference with the Bulls is that if they trade Butler, they will want to be as competitive as possible. Cousins would be ideal on paper but he would pose similar problems because he could clash with Rose, just like the rumors suggest about the clashes between Rose and Butler. So if they choose to build around Rose because they can't shift his contract, or they prefer him, then they will want to put together a good supporting cast. The trade suggested might not be the best value they could get in terms of assets, but they are unlikely to get a star in return because teams generally want to keep their stars and support them, and this would certainly give them an upgrade at SF, a talent at SG, a decent C, and a draft pick - and that's if they didn't get anything more from us. They might even have space to pursue one of the better SG free agents like DeRozan. So the deal wouldn't be them blowing it up and starting over, it would simply be staying competitive and adding good players to support Rose, and not cause any issues - something Cousins could do.
That said, if I was them I would lean more towards trading Rose than Butler because Butler is ascending while Rose looks to have lost a step or two. Build around Butler, trade Rose for whatever they can get, and then use free agency to build him a supporting cast and let him be the leader. That's what I would do or want as a Bulls fan. Not some trade like the one I suggested, or one that a team like Orlando or another middling team could offer, because generally we don't see star for star talent trades.
kupman
Starter
He would disrupt the locker-room with his poor taste!
