Voisin: Martin / Evans not working

[AriesMar27]

this article is classic voison. the names featured are tyreke evans and kevin martin, but they might as well be chris webber and peja stojakovic. could she be any more telling in her preference of player types? she's got no subtlety whatsoever...

yes, let's blame the 20-year-old rookie of the year to-be for the 26-year-old established scoring guard's inability to put the ball in the basket. tyreke evans has been doing nearly EVERYTHING you could expect him to as a rookie thrust into a superstar's role on a losing team. his assist per possession ratio might be higher if his teammates could score off his kick-outs...

here's the story: tyreke drives to the basket. if he can get to the rim, he scores on most of those possessions. if he can't, he very dutifully kicks the ball out. but in the last ten games or so, not a single player on this young, versatile kings team can hit a shot. i'm positive that the coaching staff is telling tyreke to keep doing what he's doing, because, eventually, somebody is gonna start hitting buckets...

voison is right that the evans/martin backcourt won't work. but that's an observation that most kings fans have considered at some point or another this season. ya don't have to be a sports writer to determine that these two guards don't make for a very effective pairing. i'm of the opinion that it won't work in the long term, and that martin is the kings best and most movable trade-chip heading into the future, so i think its worth contemplating the potential in his trade value. but its certainly no fault of evans that martin isn't hitting shots he should be hitting. evans doesn't have the passing ability or court vision of steve nash, but considering that evans is a ROOKIE scoring guard, i think his passing game is right where it needs to be...

you are right, he's a rookie sg, but unfortunately he's our starting pg, not sg.... even if he were our starting sg we would still have an issue with the evans/martin pairing. it doesnt work, better players have tried. they failed.

 

[ovrush]

you thought about it then you realized that evans wasnt a pg... period. all of those people who tried to defend him look borderline foolish... the hopeless romantic types are okay, 6th, bajaden, vf21 and so on... they have been there and done that, they know that this is a long, sometimes painful process. its one of those things that come with age i suppose. but the hardcore "tyreke is a pg" posters, no... no... what can you possibly say? "5 assists is really that bad". tyreke cant run an nba offense, not yet(if we're lucky) or not full time at least. he cant play without the ball so playing at sg wont help either.

the way its working out he'll set us back 3 years because we will need a completely new team just to play his style of basketball...

So essentially what you're saying is that he can't play point guard and he can't play shooting guard. You beleive his numbers to be hollow and that he is essentially a bad player.

 

[Tetsujin]

So essentially what you're saying is that he can't play point guard and he can't play shooting guard. You beleive his numbers to be hollow and that he is essentially a bad player.

I've stopped trying to follow his "logic" a loooong time ago.

 

[Kingsguy881]

I was going to create a long detailed post refuting your points one by one, but people have done that before with you and you just ignore the facts and continuously put down certain Kings players regardless of how they feel. It's just a waste of time to deal with you.

This post 100% endorsed by Kingsguy881. You learn fast young padawan.

I especially love the part about putting down certain Kings players. It is a very good indicator of the lack of character that certain individuals don't want to see certain players succeed. Not to mention lack of class.

 

[Kingsguy881]

So essentially what you're saying is that he can't play point guard and he can't play shooting guard. You beleive his numbers to be hollow and that he is essentially a bad player.

What he is saying is that he hates Evans and wishes Rubio were drafted. Because the Kings drafted Evans, he is going to point out any and all negativities he can. And there is no end in sight. Which is why I've been staying away from this board lately. It's being overran by stupidity and ignorance, and even coming to read Bricks game grades is not helping keep me here. And I love Bricks grades thread.

 

[BMiller52]

What he is saying is that he hates Evans and wishes Rubio were drafted. Because the Kings drafted Evans, he is going to point out any and all negativities he can. And there is no end in sight. Which is why I've been staying away from this board lately. It's being overran by stupidity and ignorance, and even coming to read Bricks game grades is not helping keep me here. And I love Bricks grades thread.

cosigned.

 

[Bricklayer]

you thought about it then you realized that evans wasnt a pg... period. all of those people who tried to defend him look borderline foolish... the hopeless romantic types are okay, 6th, bajaden, vf21 and so on... they have been there and done that, they know that this is a long, sometimes painful process. its one of those things that come with age i suppose. but the hardcore "tyreke is a pg" posters, no... no... what can you possibly say? "5 assists is really that bad". tyreke cant run an nba offense, not yet(if we're lucky) or not full time at least. he cant play without the ball so playing at sg wont help either.

the way its working out he'll set us back 3 years because we will need a completely new team just to play his style of basketball...

Uh yeah, because of course we had a successful one before he arrived? And all those holdover vets too. Holdover coach too. Man, I mean look at all we would have to tear down!

 

[est.1999]

Wow AM this is even bad for your standards

 

[TheFifthMookie]

What he is saying is that he hates Evans and wishes Rubio were drafted. Because the Kings drafted Evans, he is going to point out any and all negativities he can. And there is no end in sight. Which is why I've been staying away from this board lately. It's being overran by stupidity and ignorance, and even coming to read Bricks game grades is not helping keep me here. And I love Bricks grades thread.

been feeling a little bit of this myself. I think some strong moderation of certain voices may be in order.

 

[bajaden]

Grant is really hammering Martin on his show right now. Quite a turn around.

 

[ovrush]

been feeling a little bit of this myself. I think some strong moderation of certain voices may be in order.

Its the first time I've really really felt this way about someone and ive been reading the board since around 2002 before they redid the server.

 

[rainmaker]

Grant is really hammering Martin on his show right now. Quite a turn around.

I'm listening to it to. Can't say I really disagree with anything he's said. I agree, and it's disappointing, that Kevin doesn't help us if the shots aren't falling. Kevin could change that by hustling, and comitting to defense, but he hasn't. You can't control shots falling, but you have complete control over your energy and effort, and Kevin has left a lot to be desired on that end.

 

[Sparky6string]

Another missing element of Kevin's game lately is he isn't getting to the line like he used to. Before the injury if his outside shot wasn't falling he could get to the line and get his defenders in foul trouble. I don't know what the cause of this is but he needs to take a look at that.

Tyreke might be a little shot happy lately, but we've needed someone to score for us too. It's early yet in this guy's career, and the team dynamic has changed. That can take time to adjust. I was at the game last night and it does seem that Tyreke is driving with intent to score a bit much. When he does that however he draws the D, which leaves guys open. I don't know if it's solely Tyreke's fault for not making the pass or if our guys are not moving without the ball and getting into passing lanes but there's an opportunity there, and I believe it can be worked out.

We saw Tyreke try to pass from the post some in the second half but he couldn't get the double team to commit, and he didn't know how to deal with that. JT can be an effective passer from the post as well, but I'd like to see some of that crisp passing around the perimeter to find the open man instead of having to use screens constantly or forcing the shooter to create his own shot.

 

[bajaden]

I'm listening to it to. Can't say I really disagree with anything he's said. I agree, and it's disappointing, that Kevin doesn't help us if the shots aren't falling. Kevin could change that by hustling, and comitting to defense, but he hasn't. You can't control shots falling, but you have complete control over your energy and effort, and Kevin has left a lot to be desired on that end.

As they say a leapord can't change its spots. Kevin is what he is. And, as Grant said, if he can't be what he is, then he's not worthy of staying on the floor. Because he can't really help you. He's not a good defender, or a great distributer of the basketball. He's a scorer. And right now, he's not scoring. He's passing up wide open shots. And when he does take the shot, he doesn't have that agressive look to him that he used to have. Frankly, I'm surprised. Every time he's been out with an injury before, he's come back as though he was never gone. I'm not sure whats going on with him.

 

[rainmaker]

As they say a leapord can't change its spots. Kevin is what he is. And, as Grant said, if he can't be what he is, then he's not worthy of staying on the floor. Because he can't really help you. He's not a good defender, or a great distributer of the basketball. He's a scorer. And right now, he's not scoring. He's passing up wide open shots. And when he does take the shot, he doesn't have that agressive look to him that he used to have. Frankly, I'm surprised. Every time he's been out with an injury before, he's come back as though he was never gone. I'm not sure whats going on with him.

I'm as puzzled by it as anyone. I didn't see this coming, and I didn't want it to completely blow up in our faces. Not sure it has yet, but it appears to be getting worse. But, what gets me kind of mad, is that Kevin can still contribute with his effort in other ways if his shots aren't falling, and he isn't. It seems as if he could care less about playing defense if he's not scoring, and that is extremely troubling given the new identity this team has taken on, which he saw courtside, firsthand, the entire time he was out.

 

[bajaden]

I've stayed away from this Tyreke isn't a point guard or is a point guard thing. And not because I'm a hopeless romantic. But because I don't think it matters. He's going to be a great player. He's probably going to handle the ball more than anyone else on the team. So call him what ever you want. He's going to be here, and he's going to be the star. And, when your the star and the player they're going to build around, then everyone else needs to compliment what he does. If you don't, then goodbye.

But understand. Tyreke is a work in progress. He makes mistakes that he won't make a couple of years from now. You can't force feed experience. There are no shortcuts. He's twenty years old and he's doing things that players that have played in the league for 10 years can't do. With emphasis on Can't.

Tyreke only needs his Pippen. And everything else will fall into place.

 

[Showtime]

I've stayed away from this Tyreke isn't a point guard or is a point guard thing. And not because I'm a hopeless romantic. But because I don't think it matters. He's going to be a great player. He's probably going to handle the ball more than anyone else on the team. So call him what ever you want. He's going to be here, and he's going to be the star. And, when your the star and the player they're going to build around, then everyone else needs to compliment what he does. If you don't, then goodbye.

But understand. Tyreke is a work in progress. He makes mistakes that he won't make a couple of years from now. You can't force feed experience. There are no shortcuts. He's twenty years old and he's doing things that players that have played in the league for 10 years can't do. With emphasis on Can't.

Tyreke only needs his Pippen. And everything else will fall into place.

What is Roy? What is Wade? People get so caught up in the "shooting" and "point" that they totally ignore the "guard" part. A player doesn't have to be either John Stockton or Ray Allen in order to be a good player. Some people just have really rigid definitions of how a player should play a position, but that isn't the way it has to be. Combo guys have been around and had success, and Evans will be yet another chapter in that book.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I'm not trying to damn Evans to Iverson territory, but the fact is he's a very ball dominant player and he has little to no ability off the ball. He can improve, but for the most part that's the player he's going to be. So if you're going to build around a player like that you have to build around him the same way the sixers built around Iverson and that's with defensive players with off-ball scoring ability.

 

[Kingsguy881]

What is Roy? What is Wade? People get so caught up in the "shooting" and "point" that they totally ignore the "guard" part. A player doesn't have to be either John Stockton or Ray Allen in order to be a good player. Some people just have really rigid definitions of how a player should play a position, but that isn't the way it has to be. Combo guys have been around and had success, and Evans will be yet another chapter in that book.

Maybe those people need more fiber

Seriously, this has been done to death and it is quite old. The argument about whether or not Tyreke is a pg is old, should be done, but it is kept alive by the people who wanted Rubio and now want to point out all the negativities in Tyrekes' game to pad their little ego into believing they were right about Rubio, and that Petrie and us fans are wrong about Evans. It's kind of sad really, in a pathetic sort of way.

The bottom line is we got a young stud who can anchor a contending team for a long time. If you can't be happy with that then there really isn't any help for you. It sometimes seems as if some people must live with this kind of dissent in their lives, perrennial unhappy kind of people. Whatever floats your boat. In 3 years when Tyreke is a top 5 player in the league and we are competing in the playoffs I wonder what these guys will be saying then.

 

[Sac.1989]

when martin gets himself out of this shooting slump then we can really evaluate, its not time to throw him under the bus yet. GP is going to take his time here and really so should we.

 

[Kingsguy881]

I'm not trying to damn Evans to Iverson territory, but the fact is he's a very ball dominant player and he has little to no ability off the ball. He can improve, but for the most part that's the player he's going to be. So if you're going to build around a player like that you have to build around him the same way the sixers built around Iverson and that's with defensive players with off-ball scoring ability.

If I remember correctly, Iverson had a crappy team and led them to the championship. In fact, wasn't KT on that broke squad? Anyway, my point being that if Tyreke ends up like Iverson we sure could have done worse. Our beloved Kings of early 2000 fame can't even say that, now can they?

 

[Kingsguy881]

when martin gets himself out of this shooting slump then we can really evaluate, its not time to throw him under the bus yet. GP is going to take his time here and really so should we.

That doesn't apply to a lot of Kings fans. A lot of Kings fans jumped on the wagon back in 2000 and are not really understanding of what happened prior to that. They tend to be a bit impatient

 

[Sparky6string]

If I remember correctly, Iverson had a crappy team and led them to the championship. In fact, wasn't KT on that broke squad? Anyway, my point being that if Tyreke ends up like Iverson we sure could have done worse. Our beloved Kings of early 2000 fame can't even say that, now can they?

The comparisons to Iverson "not in a good way" should be with his general attitude and aptitude for problems on and off the court. Iverson was one of the greatest players of his era IMO.

Tyreke doesn't have the posse that Iverson had, he has his family to keep him on the straight and narrow. Where Iverson had a lofty opinion of himself and had mastered the art of bragadocio Tyreke keeps silent and exposes a humble disposition when pressed.

Regarding his game, being an effective scorer is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[BMiller52]

I'm not trying to damn Evans to Iverson territory, but the fact is he's a very ball dominant player and he has little to no ability off the ball. He can improve, but for the most part that's the player he's going to be. So if you're going to build around a player like that you have to build around him the same way the sixers built around Iverson and that's with defensive players with off-ball scoring ability.

Miami didn't really have to do that with Wade. Tyreke is going to get better, he's going to improve his shooting and passing, he's going to get better defensively(where he's already good), he's going to do a better job recognizing when to pass to certain players in certain situations, he's only 20 years old and a rookie. Just like Spencer(who I've been too critical on sometimes) he's going to improve. We got to give them a year to do it though. And you know what? Maybe some defensive players with off ball scoring ability wouldn't be so bad. The last time we had guys like that, Doug Christie and Keon Clark/Pollard, we weren't exactly a bad team. We were pretty good on offense AND defense. Every good team needs some of those guys, whether you're a princeton O or triangle O or you're an ISO team like the 6ers with AI.

 

[Arkitect]

when martin gets himself out of this shooting slump then we can really evaluate, its not time to throw him under the bus yet. GP is going to take his time here and really so should we.

It has nothing to do with throwing anyone under the bus. Many thought that Martin and Tyreke wouldn't play well together way before he came back. This includes many Kings fans and national media. We tried it, and it isn't working and is probably not going to work in the future. What is left to evaluate? The problem is that GP is more than likely going to sit and wait, and the next thing we know we have a vet getting sporadic playing time and getting paid millions of dollars with an untradeable contract. Trade Martin now while he has max value and get something to help this team. Every egg that Martin lays is chipping away at his value.

 

[Vlade4GM]

If I remember correctly, Iverson had a crappy team and led them to the championship. In fact, wasn't KT on that broke squad? Anyway, my point being that if Tyreke ends up like Iverson we sure could have done worse. Our beloved Kings of early 2000 fame can't even say that, now can they?

That was a very good defensive team with Larry Brown coaching them, they also had good offensive role players that played off Iverson well. Iverson could only go far with a team that was built from top to bottom to complement him and even then they still weren't a real championship team IMO.

That team had much tougher competition than Iverson's sixers had, if they were playing in the East I'm sure they would've made it to the finals at least once.

 

[Vlade4GM]

The comparisons to Iverson "not in a good way" should be with his general attitude and aptitude for problems on and off the court. Iverson was one of the greatest players of his era IMO.

Tyreke doesn't have the posse that Iverson had, he has his family to keep him on the straight and narrow. Where Iverson had a lofty opinion of himself and had mastered the art of bragadocio Tyreke keeps silent and exposes a humble disposition when pressed.

Regarding his game, being an effective scorer is nothing to be ashamed of.

It amazes me how people still think Iverson is a great player, he's not. Sure he could put up a lot of stats, but his style of play is really not conducive to winning because he dominates the ball and freezes out his teammates. It's not just his attitude that led to him not winning, it was his style of play.

 

[NME]

"Iverson and not in a good way" is 25 shots on 40% shooting, not 17 shots on 46% shooting.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Miami didn't really have to do that with Wade. Tyreke is going to get better, he's going to improve his shooting and passing, he's going to get better defensively(where he's already good), he's going to do a better job recognizing when to pass to certain players in certain situations, he's only 20 years old and a rookie. Just like Spencer(who I've been too critical on sometimes) he's going to improve. We got to give them a year to do it though. And you know what? Maybe some defensive players with off ball scoring ability wouldn't be so bad. The last time we had guys like that, Doug Christie and Keon Clark/Pollard, we weren't exactly a bad team. We were pretty good on offense AND defense. Every good team needs some of those guys, whether you're a princeton O or triangle O or you're an ISO team like the 6ers with AI.

I don't think Evans will be able to score in as many ways as Wade can, Wade can score in the same ways that Evans does and even moreso with his jumper and explosiveness, and he has better off-ball ability than Evans because of his superior athleticism. Even with that said I think Miami overachieved quite a bit that year, plus they had the refs really in their back pocket and Shaq as a decoy.

While players like Kobe, Wade, and LeBron are most effective with the ball in their hands they can still do stuff off the ball and they don't need to pound the ball as much as Evans does to get where they need to.

I'm not really saying they just need some defensive role players, I'm saying they need to be a defensive oriented team and get an all-star level post scoring big.

 

[Kingsguy881]

It amazes me how people still think Iverson is a great player, he's not. Sure he could put up a lot of stats, but his style of play is really not conducive to winning because he dominates the ball and freezes out his teammates. It's not just his attitude that led to him not winning, it was his style of play.

Yes, Iverson WAS a GREAT player. Don't try to knock him, when he was in his prime he played his @ss off and his teams were always in the playoffs. Maybe you weren't his biggest fan and thought him a dope for his off the court antics, but you are a damn fool if you want to say that Iverson was not a great player. Maybe you didn't like his style but don't be an idiot, dude was a freaking BEAST. Nobody could guard him, he was a 6 foot 1 inch dynamo, he gave up 20-30 lbs and a few inches every single night and always outplayed the guy guarding him.